2014 Electronic Suspension Spring Rates

[FJRay]

I'm glad there are those of you smart enough to figure this out. I do think the majority of riders will be the play with it for a while type and then just leave it alone. It seems like there is a lot of technology for the purpose of keeping up with the competition and making sales but a good rider with decent suspension will still spank the wannabe with all the bells and whistles.

I'll stick with my basic homebrew front forks and GP built rear shock. Good enough for who it's for.

It is interesting reading so keep it coming cause as soon as you figure it out they will change it again.

 

[Bugnatr]

but a good rider with decent suspension will still spank the wannabe with all the bells and whistles.

Ain't that the truth.

Fun read.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Me anus burns..

 

[RaYzerman19]

At the Novi show today, the Yammy guys didn't know anything.... didn't learn a thing about one spring, two springs..... I don't know where the show bike was set, but the rear shock seemed a little soft to me as I bounced on it. I am concerned the 685 lb spring ain't gonna be good enough for 200+ lb. folks (heck, the Gen 2 wasn't). Does the preload range 14.5-22.5 = 8mm seem a bit small? So...... I dunno what to say about ES if someone wants to upgrade. Front is likely adequate, however, I'm not in love with only one spring should that turn out to be true. I'm kinda back on the 'A' bandwagon (for me). I think the enthusiast riders who have upgraded their suspenders in the past may prefer the A, whereas the lighter average rider has the option to 'spring' for the ES. Somebody will be able to put a stronger spring on the ES shock.

There was a dealer selling an A for $13,900........ BTW, that red did look orange-ish under those lights...... All in all, my wallet isn't twitching nearly as much now....... I need a test ride in real world conditions. Did I mention I love my '07?

 

[Fred W]

The rear spring spec has to be a mistake. There is no way they couldo fit that soft a spring regardless of how much preload there was applied, you would still bottom out even with a light rider. Remember, this is a 600 lb bike before anyone gets on board.

At the risk of alienating the techno curmudgeons out there, here is how I think about spring rates and preloads: A bike and rider weighs X amount. It will take a spring and preload combination producing a particular force to hold that weight at the correct sag to put the bike at 1/3rd of its suspension deflection at rest. You can do that with a soft spring and lots of preload or a hard spring and little preload. The big difference will be in the dynamic reaction of the springs.

Regardless of the amount of preload, the softer spring always takes less force to compress it a given amount further (from the sag point) than a stiffer spring would. So a softer spring with more preload will be naturally more compliant than a stiffy with little preload. Add to that that a softer spring will require less rebound damping to control that spring's lighter rebound force and that softer spring should soak up the bumps better.

Ideally you would want to use all of the available suspension travel to absorb the worst case bumps you are going to encounter without bottoming out. That would allow the wheels to maintain the best contact with road while transmitting the least impact to the rider. When properly damped the bike chassis would move around the least and the wheels would follow the undulating road underneath.

That is unless you are riding on a race track where controlling the attitude of the bike, and subsequent steering angles, is more important than maximizing rider comfort, and there are really no bumps expected anyway. In that case the full suspension travel is never a factor.

It all depends on what your suspension goals are.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Can't argue with that Fred. The concern (for me) is what is going to be adequate, and in the back of my mind is the Gen II shock, where soft was a bit too soft and hard was too harsh, i.e., not compliant enough as I gained FJR experience and pushed my level of 'expertise' in riding twisties and twisties with bumps. Aftermarket shock with more compliance was the answer, and spring rate more suited to 'just right' (of course, higher than the OEM). Variable adjustable OEM would have been much more preferable than the soft and hard preload settings on the OEM. But way better when you also have independently adjustable compression and rebound.

So how do you know the ES shock is good enough... one likely does not get the opportunity to set sag until you've bought the bike and got it home. Will it be OK? Probably for a while, as GenII owners found, but those who got aftermarket wondered why they waited so long and seemed so much happier...... others didn't upgrade and were OK with it. You are right, it depends on what YOUR suspension goals are for YOU. Upgraders probably won't go with the ES (or maybe should at least think about it some more), but not given the opportunity to test the suspension under various conditions before you buy...... kinda steers me towards the A because it saves $1000 one can spend on an aftermarket shock. Again, your preference if one chooses or thinks they won't be playing with their ES toys much after while. I 'spoze someone like Ohlins will have an ES shock one day, but that will be more like $3500.

Meanwhile, new ES owners are bound to extoll the virtues of their new bike...... toys are fun, after all, tempting even for me...... who thinks that throttle by wire is the REAL one feature worth the upgrade to a Gen III.

 

[Fred W]

I agree with everything you just said.

To be honest, throttle by wire was a negative change in my mind. It enabled the CC and traction control features, neither of which is particularly appealing to me. I have CC on my 05 and very seldom use it. And I've never had acceleration induced wheel slip that I couldn't deal with. The new suspension is intriguing, but the more I dissect the changes the more I like my crusty, trusty 05.

 

[mcatrophy]

.... And I've never had acceleration induced wheel slip that I couldn't deal with. ...

I'd like traction control. Although I've spun the rear wheel up a few times without drama, it would probably have prevented my own stupidity on one occasion .

 

[MCRIDER007]

Can't argue with that Fred. The concern (for me) is what is going to be adequate, and in the back of my mind is the Gen II shock, where soft was a bit too soft and hard was too harsh, i.e., not compliant enough as I gained FJR experience and pushed my level of 'expertise' in riding twisties and twisties with bumps. Aftermarket shock with more compliance was the answer, and spring rate more suited to 'just right' (of course, higher than the OEM). Variable adjustable OEM would have been much more preferable than the soft and hard preload settings on the OEM. But way better when you also have independently adjustable compression and rebound.
So how do you know the ES shock is good enough... one likely does not get the opportunity to set sag until you've bought the bike and got it home. Will it be OK? Probably for a while, as GenII owners found, but those who got aftermarket wondered why they waited so long and seemed so much happier...... others didn't upgrade and were OK with it. You are right, it depends on what YOUR suspension goals are for YOU. Upgraders probably won't go with the ES (or maybe should at least think about it some more), but not given the opportunity to test the suspension under various conditions before you buy...... kinda steers me towards the A because it saves $1000 one can spend on an aftermarket shock. Again, your preference if one chooses or thinks they won't be playing with their ES toys much after while. I 'spoze someone like Ohlins will have an ES shock one day, but that will be more like $3500.

Meanwhile, new ES owners are bound to extoll the virtues of their new bike...... toys are fun, after all, tempting even for me...... who thinks that throttle by wire is the REAL one feature worth the upgrade to a Gen III.

All good points.....and I certainly struggled with the "soft" too soft and "hard" too harsh settings on both my GEN1 and GEN2 but I think the problem with the hard setting was the damping, I just couldn't find a setting that wasn't too harsh. I could have lived with the spring rate since a solo rider distributes the total weight much differently than a couple and I use a small trunk that only weighs 15 lbs loaded, but the damping on that hard setting just didn't work for me except for spirited riding for short durations. I can say the '13's shock is a big improvement, both in spring rates and damping, the soft spring (650 lb) is firm enough for most solo riding and the hard spring (970 lb) setting is very firm rather than harsh, and I prefer it for high speed riding (which I don't do in my home state very often).

I think the listed 685 lb spring for the ES is probably accurate because Yamaha used similar spring rates for the hard setting from 2001-2012 and that is about the only way they could have a plush ride for the under 200 lb (total load) riders and those riders are going to be very happy with the ES even if they find they need to increase the preload for spirited rides. I wouldn't be surprised if solo riders with up to a 300 lb (total load) are also going to be happy with the shocks performance because they will not be putting as much weight on the shock as a 300 lb couple and can offset some additional weight through damping adjustments. However, 2-up riders with a combined rider, passenger, luggage weight exceeding 350 lbs are going to have the same problem that all of the GEN1 and GEN2s had, there just isn't enough spring, preload, and damping adjustments to compensate for the weight and the problem just gets more acute as the total weight increases....and its not that difficult for some couples to get to 450 lbs. Anyone planning to use the ES for 2-up riding needs to take a careful look at the shock's limitations.

 

[FJRay]

Me anus burns..

That's a lotta burn cause you're all Anus.
Back to spring and shock stuff on the FJR.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I agree with everything you just said.
To be honest, throttle by wire was a negative change in my mind. It enabled the CC and traction control features, neither of which is particularly appealing to me. I have CC on my 05 and very seldom use it. And I've never had acceleration induced wheel slip that I couldn't deal with. The new suspension is intriguing, but the more I dissect the changes the more I like my crusty, trusty 05.

CC is nice, traction control may not end up being used by me. The big advantage for throttle by wire is to get rid of or minimize that throttle snatch, particularly on an '06 or '07. I'd be in heaven if there were no throttle snatch.....

 

[Fred W]

As has been discussed ad infinitum the throttle snatch is a function of FI fuel cutoff.

If someone determined that the '14 has no fuel cut that might be the biggest revelation to date.

 

[NormKern]

A point some have missed: A '685 lb spring' does not refer to a spring that pushes back with a force of 685 lbs. '685 lb' is the spring RATE, which is actually pounds per inch of compression. If the spring is not compressed, it produces no force whatsoever. If you compress it one inch, it pushes back with a force of 685 lbs. Compress it an additional inch (total of 2 inches) and it now pushes back with a force of 1370 lbs.

If you compress the spring an additional 6mm, as the ES does when going from the solo preload to the rider+passenger preload, that increases the force of the spring by about 160 lbs. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that "Yamaha assumes the passenger weighs 160 pounds," let me point out that we are only talking about the force of the spring itself, not the effect of the compression of the spring on the rear axle. That depends on the mechanical advantage of the linkage between the shock and the rear wheel. Due to the lever arrangement involved, this is not a simple linear relationship.

What no one has done yet is measure the position of the rear axle under various loads & preload settings. I will do that as soon as my ES is delivered later this month. Here's what I plan to do:

1. set up a scale that measures the relative distance between the base of the seat and the rear axle.

2. measure the distance with the bike on the centerstand and no weight on the rear wheel.

3. measure the distance with the bike off the centerstand w/o saddlebags or trunk.

4. measure the distance with the bags on the bike loaded the way I normally use them

5. measure the distance with bags and myself on the bike fully dressed in all my riding gear

6. measure the distance with everything in #5 plus my trunk on the bike loaded as I normally do for a trip.

7. Repeat steps 3 thru 6 for the other preload settings.

Then I will know whether I need a stiffer spring and where to set the preload.

When I post my results, I will include my weight with riding gear, weight of normally loaded bags and weight of loaded trunk so others will be able to better interpret the measurements for themselves.

 

[MCRIDER007]

When I post my results, I will include my weight with riding gear, weight of normally loaded bags and weight of loaded trunk so others will be able to better interpret the measurements for themselves.

If you want your results to provide comparative and useful value for everyone then you need to provide measurements both for you and when a 150 lb passenger is on the rear seat.

 

[NormKern]

When I post my results, I will include my weight with riding gear, weight of normally loaded bags and weight of loaded trunk so others will be able to better interpret the measurements for themselves.

If you want your results to provide comparative and useful value for everyone then you need to provide measurements both for you and when a 150 lb passenger is on the rear seat.

I don't plan to ride two-up and don't have a 150 lb passeger to put on the back seat. I weigh about 235. By the time I add the bags, contents and my riding gear, that will probably be a total of about 260 lbs.

People need to run their own test if they want to know their own situation exactly, but from the table of my results you will be able to see how much change in height the various preload settings provide in several well-defined situations. It should be pretty easy to interpolate from there.

 

[MCRIDER007]

When I post my results, I will include my weight with riding gear, weight of normally loaded bags and weight of loaded trunk so others will be able to better interpret the measurements for themselves.

If you want your results to provide comparative and useful value for everyone then you need to provide measurements both for you and when a 150 lb passenger is on the rear seat.

I don't plan to ride two-up and don't have a 150 lb passeger to put on the back seat. I weigh about 235...

Hopefully you can find someone in that weight range for a single measurement (with full preload added) to show the effect on the sag when weight is loaded on the rear seat. The next best thing would be to load 50-75 lbs on the rear seat and take a measurement, the effect on sag should be pretty linear. I'll predict that a 150 lb passenger will increase the sag by 35-40mm on a 685 lb spring.

 

[Fred W]

A point some have missed: A '685 lb spring' does not refer to a spring that pushes back with a force of 685 lbs. '685 lb' is the spring RATE, which is actually pounds per inch of compression. If the spring is not compressed, it produces no force whatsoever. If you compress it one inch, it pushes back with a force of 685 lbs. Compress it an additional inch (total of 2 inches) and it now pushes back with a force of 1370 lbs.
If you compress the spring an additional 6mm, as the ES does when going from the solo preload to the rider+passenger preload, that increases the force of the spring by about 160 lbs. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that "Yamaha assumes the passenger weighs 160 pounds," let me point out that we are only talking about the force of the spring itself, not the effect of the compression of the spring on the rear axle. That depends on the mechanical advantage of the linkage between the shock and the rear wheel. Due to the lever arrangement involved, this is not a simple linear relationship.

What no one has done yet is measure the position of the rear axle under various loads & preload settings. I will do that as soon as my ES is delivered later this month. Here's what I plan to do:

1. set up a scale that measures the relative distance between the base of the seat and the rear axle.

2. measure the distance with the bike on the centerstand and no weight on the rear wheel.

3. measure the distance with the bike off the centerstand w/o saddlebags or trunk.

4. measure the distance with the bags on the bike loaded the way I normally use them

5. measure the distance with bags and myself on the bike fully dressed in all my riding gear

6. measure the distance with everything in #5 plus my trunk on the bike loaded as I normally do for a trip.

7. Repeat steps 3 thru 6 for the other preload settings.

Then I will know whether I need a stiffer spring and where to set the preload.

When I post my results, I will include my weight with riding gear, weight of normally loaded bags and weight of loaded trunk so others will be able to better interpret the measurements for themselves.

That's admirable of you, but I don't think anyone missed these points. What you are describing is measuring the rear suspension sag. Thats what we have been talking about all along.
The only sag measurement that is of any real significance is the fully loaded sag, as that is how the suspension will be used. You want that sag setting to be about 1/3rd of the total available travel. Beyond that it is a matter of measuring the suspension deflection while underway, which is really beyond our capability. If the suspension bottoms out from proper sag height you need a stiffer spring. If it doesn't then it is a matter of how it feels to you, too stiff or too soft.

FWIW when I had my Penske shock rebuilt last winter at GP suspensions they recommended I change to a 900 lb/in spring for mixed use of solo and two up. I weigh 230 lbs and my bride weighs 100 when wet. With that spring we had a pretty good, albeit sporty ride when 2 up but solo it was just unbearably stiff. Even with reducing the preload to attain 45mm of sag it felt like a hard tail when I rode it solo.

I ended up going back to the 800 lb/in spring that I had been running previously and achieved the right sag with about 10 mm or less of spring preload and it is much more comfortable when solo. I tend to ride a bit slower two up anyway so the added sag when wifey is on board is not a problem.

 

[Allen_C]

I have ridden two up, 190# and 140#, on both my old '08AE and '14ES. We would occasionally bottom out on the Gen2 but NOT on the '14ES. The rear shock on the ES is stiffer, without being harsher. Hypothesize all you want, the ES suspension works well...maybe not as well as a $2-3k+ aftermarket one, but as Motorcyclist Magazine says, it works well.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Norm, thanks for doing that, I think it may be useful to some of us. Allan, nice of you to say it's good, but it needs qualification. Could you share all the settings info with us, e.g., is preload at 1,2,3,4, etc., and is this mainly for cruising or what type of riding? What settings do you use if it's you only?

 

[escapefjrtist]

<snip> FWIW when I had my Penske shock rebuilt last winter at GP suspensions they recommended I change to a 900 lb/in spring for mixed use of solo and two up. I weigh 230 lbs and my bride weighs 100 when wet. With that spring we had a pretty good, albeit sporty ride when 2 up but solo it was just unbearably stiff. Even with reducing the preload to attain 45mm of sag it felt like a hard tail when I rode it solo.

I'm in the same boat as you Fred, my Penske has an 850 spring on it now. I'm 20-25 pounds lighter than you, SO a little heavier than yours...we'll leave it at that. For one-up it works great giving a nice sporty ride and it's perfect when adding bags and trunk for trips. Two-up with bags and trunk, I need to add 7 mm of preload and 6 mm of ride height. I've ordered a 950 spring and plan to use that for two-up touring with bags and trunk. We'll see if it's too much...at least springs are cheap and easy to change.

--G