Auxiliary Cell Design

[Joe2Lmaker]

Here is the most complicated part of the whole deal:

I was feeling pretty smart because I had figured out how to make that "Z" bend, but I see now that I've got another little issue.

Can you spot it?

 

[wheatonFJR]

Good going corn dodger! :clapping:

 

[chrisflock]

Here is the most complicated part of the whole deal:

I was feeling pretty smart because I had figured out how to make that "Z" bend, but I see now that I've got another little issue.

Can you spot it?

The only thing I can come up with is (and I'm thinking about bending sheet metal in a brake here), how are you going to bind the 'inner' flaps up (at the same point) without bending up the protruding portion of the bottom.

Just as a test, I just took a hunk of scrap paper and cut and folded it. I had to do the 'inner' cut with a knife, of course, but it worked...also, it would sure be nice to make the outer 'z' arms a little longer (using an overall longer sheet of aluminum and cutting something off the 'back' of plate after making the lengthwise cuts would be nice, and would save a butt-weld (which I understand is to be avoided when making fuel tanks?) but it would still require one butt weld (you could save the horizontal weld but would still need the vertical...)

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Keep us Gen I's in the back of your design mind.

Bearly Flying has you guys covered.

Have you seen this? Bearly Flying's Aux Fuel Tank <Link>

The only thing I can come up with is (and I'm thinking about bending sheet metal in a brake here), how are you going to bind the 'inner' flaps up (at the same point) without bending up the protruding portion of the bottom.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner. Here are some photos (found on ebay) of bending brakes similar to what I'm using:

[SIZE=36pt]- -[/SIZE]

The fingers (angled pieces in the photo) can be adjusted or removed. On this particular piece of equipment, a simple (and inexpensive) piece of 2-1/2" angle is screwed to the brake. I bought a piece so I could modify it (clearancing out the center section). Sorry for the lack of photos.

That's not the problem ("little issue") I was talking about, but I think I have it worked out. I can see I'm going to need to mark up some photos to explain this. :dntknw:

After I got the last "little issue" sorted out, I thought how nice it would be to have radius fingers for my bends, but they are not available for this machine. :fool:

 

[dcarver]

Very nice. I want one. But you already know that!

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

I'm cutting the bottom plate(s) right now. One for you and one for me.

I'll check the fit this week-end and maybe post a photo.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Like Sands Through the Hourglass...

I haven't been around much. My sister bought a boat.

My big sister with her heart of gold bought a boat. She is one of those 'what's mine is yours' characters. One of the reasons she bought the boat is so that my son and I could use it when we're up at the lake.

Last time we were up at the lake, I noticed that one of the boat's aluminum castings was cracked. I volunteered to take it off and bring it to the guy who welded my tank for me. That was my first mistake. So, a few weeks ago she brings the boat and trailer over to my garage. I remove the cast aluminum piece, and bring it to be welded. Before removing the part, I first have to remove the navigation lights. "Hhhmm. This doesn't look right." The wiring is a mess. "I should fix that for her as long as I have the light off anyway." Looking into it a little more, I find that the stern light has the same problem. "I should fix that too as long as I have to rewire the bow anyway." The next thing I found was an AC plug that the previous owner used as a quick disconnect for the depth finder. "I should replace that..."

When I picked up the aluminum casting from the welder, he had filled in the holes for the navigation light. There was no way I was going to be able to use the existing light. I had to buy a new one. Yesterday she dropped off the new depth finder my dad bought her. I wonder if there will be any surprises when I'm installing that for her. <_<

Oh and I forgot to mention that she wanted to learn how to winterize a boat, so we had to work that into our schedules. "At least it has Bearing Buddies. I don't have to repack the trailer bearings..." Wrong. There wasn't any grease getting past the inner seals. If the Bearing Buddies were working, there should have been some grease being slung around back there. I gave the wheel a shake. ****! They aren't supposed to shake like that. The previous owner didn't have the hub nut tightened properly and there wasn't enough grease in the Bearing Buddies. The emulsified grease/water/rust was going to have to be cleaned off before knowing if we she needed new bearings or not.

I remember now why I sold my boat.

I see from re-reading the previous posts that I never explained what problem I ran into or how I solved the problem.

There is a minimum amount of material needed before and after the bend.

The above drawing shows a press brake. I couldn't find a decent drawing of a piece of material in the bending brake I'm using, but you get the idea. The yellow lines in the next picture show where I don't have enough material.

The the red lines show the material I would need before and after the bend and the yellow lines show the problem. The solution was to use two pieces welded together instead of cutting and bending just one piece. Not a big deal, just another reminder that I need to KISS.

Here's a shot of the new tank's bottom plate attached to the bike:

Next I need to make a couple of sleeves that will be welded to the bottom plate:

When this is finished, changing over from a passenger seat to an auxiliary tank should be as easy as:

1. Remove the rear seat

2. Remove the two screws from the grab rail

3. Set the tank on the bike

4. Fasten the tank using the screws removed in step 2.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Looking good Joe!

 

[fljab]

I remember now why I sold my boat.

Yes, the wife and I have been talking about getting a (used) boat, but I keep going back to stories like this! I got my hands full with bikes and life in general. Renting is easier...

Next I need to make a couple of sleeves that will be welded to the bottom plate:

When this is finished, changing over from a passenger seat to an auxiliary tank should be as easy as:

1. Remove the rear seat

2. Remove the two screws from the grab rail

3. Set the tank on the bike

4. Fasten the tank using the screws removed in step 2.

So the sleeves will allow you to reach down through the tank and attach, yes? You'll use a magnet in a T-handle or something similar to keep the screws in place in the socket? I guess you'd also need to be able to pack this in a travel tool kit in case you need to get under the cell on the road. What kind of capacity are you expecting?

I'd like to build a aux fuel cell and am always reviewing ideas. I was looking to install a Summit 4 gallon aluminum cell longways ( https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-293204/ ) and was thinking of a mount to put it on; something I can remove or swing up and away easily if I need to get underneath. I don't really have the tools to fab this at home other than to do some cardboard cutout/sizing. I could pull some favors and probably get the sheetmetal cutout/formed, but would have to pay to do the welding, thus the Summit idea.

Your project gives me more "food for thought". Kinda why I've gotten addicted to this list...

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

So the sleeves will allow you to reach down through the tank and attach, yes? You'll use a magnet in a T-handle or something similar to keep the screws in place in the socket? I guess you'd also need to be able to pack this in a travel tool kit in case you need to get under the cell on the road.

Yes, and I have a rare earth magnet that I'm planning to press into a socket, but one of those telescoping pocket magnets would work well enough to retrieve the screws.

The volume in the model checks 1149 cubic inches right now, but I haven't subtracted the baffles from that volume yet. I'm shooting for the IBR max volume of 4.9 gallons (with the 6.6 gallons in the main tank)

I don't really have the tools to fab this at home other than to do some cardboard cutout/sizing. I could pull some favors and probably get the sheetmetal cutout/formed, but would have to pay to do the welding, thus the Summit idea.

The best tanks I've seen all started out as cardboard models. I don't think any of them were built by the people who designed them.

 

[fljab]

The best tanks I've seen all started out as cardboard models. I don't think any of them were built by the people who designed them.

If I was going to make the tank - and I'd still like to do that for a number of reasons - I was thinking along the lines of a Tanji tank where the top could be used as a luggage rack, and the front as a backrest. This would also sit low so would be good for cg, and would need a pump to transfer. I like your sleeve idea as that solves a dilemma I was having on how to attach efficiently. The Tanji design would allow it to be long and low.

I'm pretty much planning on farkling this bike out for LD and still figuring out where I need to mount things. Lots of good stuff on the forum for sure, but still each bike is a little different in how we set them up and our needs/wants. I guess my point is that I might still need a little bit of room underneath the tank for this'n'that.

Looks like more cardboard will be going to their death in my shop...

 

[dcarver]

:yahoo:

 

[DaJuice]

Since Joe has become a lurker on the forum ever since he hit post #1499 I figured I'd give the thread a bump. He apparently wants to save post 1500 for something special or something :huh:

Joe stopped by my place last night to have another look at the GenII with a Givi rack installed. There was a mistake made in the dimensions of one of the cutouts so since he has to rework some things anyway he is going to make sure this cell works for both the OEM rack and the Givi rack. The GenII's Givi rack is noticeably narrower in the back than the OEM.

JoeLurker, if you have anything more to say, would PM'ing someone that would repost it be cheating on the post count? I think not.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

This is my 1,500th post. A month ago I thought I'd save my 1,500th post to announce that my fifth revision (and second functioning tank) was finished and possibly announce a group buy.

That was a month ago.

Tonight I decided "Aw Screw it!" and instead of working on the tank, I'm going to post this update.

December 21, 2009: I cut the largest piece (sheet-2) that makes up the front and sides of the tank. Things were rolling along. The bottom plate was already finished(see post Post #146).

December 29th: After cutting the third piece for the tank (sheet-3), I realized that I had made a mistake. I cut sheet-2 too small and I was going to have to re-cut it. I caught the mistake as I was dimensioning the drawings and figuring out the bends. ****.

This first photo shows the formed sheet in the volume of the tank. The second photo shows how it should have been.

I decided that I should take a deep breath and make sure that I had thought everything through. I decided that as long as I had to re-cut sheet-2, I would update the CAD model so that the tank would fit inside a Givi rack. I also added a little extra material to sheet-2. A little extra material on the front and sides of the tank would make the welds less noticeable. Here's a photo of the CAD assembly showing what I mean.

Last Friday, I was finally ready to re-cut sheet-2, but I had one last thing to verify. I designed my tank to be just under the IBR limit for an FJR auxiliary tank. The volume of my tank checked 4.86 gallons. I wanted to make sure that if someone bought one of these tanks from me that they would pass an IBR tech inspection without having to prove the capacity of the tank. I sent a PM to one of the admins who has also been an IBR tech inspector (Is there more than one who fits that description?). The recommendation came back that I should keep the volume below 4.8 gallons if my goal was to avoid the “nerve-wracking Fuel Capacity measurement test”. Tuesday I once again modified the CAD model and the volume is now 4.797gallons. Tuesday night I re-cut Sheet-2.

Here are some photos of that:

[SIZE=18pt]-[/SIZE]

Wednesday, I trimmed a little off the bottom plate (sheet-1) and Sheet-3:

Tonight I was planning on finally cutting Sheet-4 and the baffles. This shows where I was planning to cut them out of the junked sheet-2.

My goal is that all the sheets will be bent next week, but I've been saying that for weeks now and I'm getting tired of hearing myself say that.

:russian_roulette:

Now I'm going to drink.

 

[Gramps]

Jameson? I've had a couple already...your design looks perfect. :yahoo:

 

[DaJuice]

Welcome back. Are the ones in the cupboard still cold? It's a heat wave now.

Edit: Damn it... I wasted my 100th post on your thread! :angry2:

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

I'm pretty sure the bottom plate of my tank is at the same height as the bottom plate of Tanji's tank. I was going to check the photos (Tom Melchild's) of the Tanji tank adapted to fit a GenII, but they are gone. "The page you tried to load is no longer available at that URL."

Remember this photo?

The red line is at the bottom of my auxiliary tank. Where would the Tanji tank be? The same right?

This next question is for you gravity feed zealots. How high above the red line would you like your tank to be?

I'm not flying off on another tangent. I'm still working to finish this tank so I can send if off to California for testing I'm still making one for myself. I still prefer pumping. But,... after this version is finished (and after I fix a top triple clamp for BigR) I've got two other versions to finish. The upside down plastic JAZ 4 gallon cell is about half done. The rear seat replacing rack is about half done. And I'm thinking about finishing a project Kaitsdad was helping me with, the gravity feed cell that attaches to the rear seat replacing rack.

So how high above the red line? (And WC, don't say 2-1/2")

 

[dcarver]

Fantastic 1,500th post Joe! Dang, you have some made skilz. The tank going to Kali for testing, is it a pumper or gravity feed?

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Fantastic 1,500th post Joe! Dang, you have some made skilz. The tank going to Kali for testing, is it a pumper or gravity feed?

That's a good question. I'm pretty sure it would work as either, but it definitely won't transfer fuel any faster than a Tanji cell.

Do you want to test that? I could set it up as a gravity feed; draining from the bottom with a valve on the left side. The bulkhead in the main tank will have to be a regular one. The razzle dazzle bulkhead fitting through the fuel pump flange isn't intended for gravity feed.

edit: shameless self promoting link added

 

[FJRGuy]

WOW! Just spent a better part of a couple hours reading through this entire thread and various linked threads and googling parts and such. I hadn't really felt the need for an Aux Tank but you are making me think about it. Maybe I missed something, but I have a couple of questions: In your flat-top design, were the 2 shoulder screws the only attachment points to the bike? What did you use to support the tank on the frame in the under seat area (I think I saw bumpers somewhere.)