Bike down, totaled slider, frame damaged, 15 mph

[skyway]

For those who already have my sliders, please read here.

Re: camera56 bike and my slider's

 

[JSimon]

Seems like a lot has been thrown around in this thread, a couple things I picked up on, you guys may want to take note, you may not.

1) Delrin is the better material for a slider in that it is a self lubricating hard plastic, it won't dig in like a metal piece.

2) Your typical thread depth is at minimum equal to the bolt diameter in like material, on metric bolts, say a 16mmx2, the 16 is the bolt diameter, the 2 is 2mm per thread repeat. In like steel you should have a minimum of 8 threads of penetration on a 16mm bolt in like material. In this case, aluminum is not like material, I have always referenced 1.5xdiameter when applying to aluminum as a minimum although there are cases when even that is not enough and other techniques like streel coil inserts are applied to increase thread strength. It's application specific.

3) No offense, but just because Yamaha used a given thread depth for their application does not mean that depth is correct for all applications. The slider application is different and requires more threads as the slider is exerting additional force in the application, that is evident as the threads were pulled out in your crash.

4) If your bike is going to be repaired you may wish to point out that the threads were ripped out during the crash. You may no longer have sufficient threads to secure the frame, that needs to be looked into as well.

5) Hell, anyone can drop a bike, especially one as big and heavy as an FJR, the big thing is you are okay. Maybe other folks can benefit from the experience as well. People joke a lot about how other folks ride etc. The part that makes me more nervous than any other is cornering at slow speed, that along with dogs, deer and dumb people, just be careful.

John

 

[starcruiser(aka downn2)]

I've found all the interesting to say the least, but I still have one major problem, and that is I'm not gonna have a slider on my bike that will result in the bike being a total loss being involved in a 15 MPH wipe out.......

AS an insurance agent, any crasg involving resulting in a cracked Frame, due to liability, the Ins Co's will TOTAL! Nor do I want to be out $3-5K for a simple slip and crash since I dont' carry Collison insurance........I can't imagine having to deal with buying a new frame, moving all the parts over, then having to resale it. Which I'd do immediately......IT's simply too much to deal with. Not when there are RACE PROVEN sliders, R&Gs than make not look like a million buck, but they'd save you a million bucks...

Camera56 speak of the Ric's seat being maybe too slippery, I can only imagine it was his own fault...not some paint line...Yea, he probably didn't get his left foot firmly to the inside of the peg before he did his weight transfer, then to compound it, he didn't lock his right knee against the tank, and basically he fell off the bike..These are simple mistakes any of us could make....as we don't have the riding skill of a pro.

So, regardless of how pretty it is or isn't, I'm gonna protect my bike, the best to my ability. I’ve already thrown whatever I paid for the Skyway's out the window, so I'm going now with the most established race proven parts available to protect my investment. And S&Gs can be found on just about every factory race bike. Enought said.

Yea, I feel sorry for the skyway guy, but now isn’t the time to be putting thought in your design. I’d doubt he'd want to reimburse me for butt kicking I'd take a totaled out bike anyway....

 

[camera56]

3) No offense, but just because Yamaha used a given thread depth for their application does not mean that depth is correct for all applications. The slider application is different and requires more threads as the slider is exerting additional force in the application, that is evident as the threads were pulled out in your crash.
4) If your bike is going to be repaired you may wish to point out that the threads were ripped out during the crash. You may no longer have sufficient threads to secure the frame, that needs to be looked into as well.

John

John

Thanks for the call outs

The dealer that will do the crash estimate knows about the stripped bolt. For what it's worth, i put the stock engine bolt back in (had to do something to ride it to the dealer) and the bolt torqued to 40 lbs which may be significant of absolutely nothing but is at least noteworthy.

In a related thought, when i put the skyway sliders on the first time i noticed that the engine bolts were not torqued to the speced 40lbs. Certainly gives one pause . . .

 

[camera56]

Camera56 speak of the Ric's seat being maybe too slippery, I can only imagine it was his own fault...not some paint line...Yea, he probably didn't get his left foot firmly to the inside of the peg before he did his weight transfer, then to compound it, he didn't lock his right knee against the tank, and basically he fell off the bike..These are simple mistakes any of us could make....as we don't have the riding skill of a pro.

Here's the crazy thing . . . and i've already said that i take all the blame on this one . . . I had just a month ago taken the lee parks total control riding clinic. So i can tell you for an absolute fact because i remember doing it that i set up for the turn in text book fashion, including tucking my heel, shifting my weight, etc. rolled on the gas and felt the rear end rotate out from under me. My fault becuase it was my hand on the throttle.

But i've slid the rear wheel of a bike before. And one of the things i like about the FJR is that i find the front and rear very communicative. I always feel like i know what' going on. It's one of the reasons i sold my Multistrada . . . just couldn't get it dialed in so i could feel both ends. This time, nothing. Crack the throttle and it was gone.

So of the many lessons I'm processing is to pay attention to that thick white paint in intersections and roundabouts. I keep coming back to this not because i'm looking for absolution, but because i'm hoping that i might save someone elses butt. And save mine the next time i lean a bike over on white paint.

 

[Geezer]

Yea, I feel sorry for the skyway guy, but now isn’t the time to be putting thought in your design. I’d doubt he'd want to reimburse me for butt kicking I'd take a totaled out bike anyway....

When Skyway first proposed offering his aluminum sliders there was plenty of discussion about how the aluminum slider would not absorb energy as well as Delrin and would pass more of the crash impact on to the frame, but looked much nicer. People who bought them should have gone into it with their eyes open and known what to expect. I believe the aluminum slider performed as expected given the material they are made from.

 

[pawtracks]

What does everyone think of the Motovation Sliders?
https://www.motovationusa.com/mvstore/Scrip...p?idproduct=180

Best Regards,

Shane

I have the motovation sliders on my '05 & like them.

Good build quality, easy to follow directions, nice packaging, order went through fast with a professional email & tracking number.

Twice the price of the '06 becasue of the bracket.

Mine wasn't a skyway or other choice. I bought mine before I knew who skyway or this forum was.

I bought them mainly because it required no plastic drilling or modification.

(non issue on '06 models)

 

[mdisher]

The reality is this...

It's just really crappy that that bolt is just sitting there on the side of the FeeJeer screaming 'Use me for something'

I personally don't care, if it's an aluminum slider, or plastic. Either one has the potential with the right forces to do a shit load of damage to the frame on the left side. Certainly with aluminum the chances are higher, but it is what it is. That bolt is also a motor mount into aluminum.

There are better solutions to be engineered, like the no-cut solutions for prior year FJR's that would spread the impact forces through a bracket I just haven't seen one for an 06 yet.

Are the plastic ones better? probably.

(Warning Sarcasm On, some may be offended)

Sliders are no substitute for Collision Insurance: Plenty of drops in the 10-30mph range have totaled bikes before with or without sliders. It doesn't have to involve a frame, you can get of the road, down a ditch and be just as bad off.

I know insurance varies state by state, zip by zip, rider by ride, and bike by bike, but collision is worth every penny on any bike worth $3000 or more to me. Because I don't have $3000 just laying around. Well, I might from time to time, but that's not the point.

That's to me is about the same as saying I'm not going to carry medical payments or liability because I'm probably going to be dead if I crash, and more often than not, someone is going to hit me anyway. I only carry it because I have too.

If the cost of collision insurance is truly a cost issue (and it may be for someone that's wrecked a few bikes, or has a crappy driving record) then, as they say, that, there is the price of admission. And so with it is the cost if you wreck your bike. Sliders or no Sliders, Aluminum or Not.

Delrin, or plastic sliders are not the end all either. I've seen plenty of those catch a crack and flip a bike making a low side worse. Hell, I watched a guy tumble a CBR at the Dragon last year when he hooked a peg feeler in a crack. The fact is it doesn't take much, after all we're not riding on pristine race track here, so you're better off to be insured if it happens. Period.

So is it Skyway's fault you put those shiny new things' on your bike? Those aluminum frame wrecking time bombs?

Personally, I don't think so. You bought them and installed them, he didn't twist your arm. You've seen what they can do, in some circumstances and it's unfortunate. Take them off if you don't like it.

The fact that he's offered an upgrade/side-grade is good for him. The fact remains, it's a crappy place to mount a slider period and there are better ways yet to be created that in the future will show up.

If you're really scared wait until he or someone else comes up with that.

 

[camera56]

Perhaps this will be the last post on this thread, perhaps not. I was just reading an article on www.soundrider.com Called "Accidents, Why They Happen" by riding author Dave Preston. Good thoughtful piece with lots of references to Hurt report.

The first four reasons he cites are alchohol related.

Number five is "red mist"

Six is someone else riding your bike

Seven is hypothermia

And number 8 . . .

"White lines – now this is frustrating. A society that can lob satellites into geo-synchronous orbits in space for all sorts of reasons and produce GPS systems that can tell you where you are – at any time, anywhere on the planet, to a distance of a foot or two – cannot come up with a paint to use for highway markings that does not turn to ice when damp? White lines will throw your bike on the ground with very little provocation when wet – avoid them. In summer, they are warmer, but still slippery!"

 

[dbvolfan]

I avoid the white lines like the plague...especially when I am on my road bike (the kind with 20cc tires you pedal). I have gone down in a race in a split second and learned the hard way to stay off of 'em in the AM and when it's wet outside.

 

[madmike2]

The problem with this type of low-side is that similar to "levering" the bike off the ground with hard parts, the motorcycle is "flipped" down by a sudden loss of traction.

In a "normal" (if you could call it that) lowside, the bike slides out from under the rider. Note: There is no "good" way for this to happen or conclude. In the case you are referencing, there is a sudden, violent "flopping" of the bike. In a case where an exhaust or footpeg levers the bike, the result is as if someone "slapped" the rider or motorcycle from the opposite side, slamming the bike and rider to the road surface. In this case, the results are more serious than a "simple" case of the bike sliding out from under the rider.

This could be a contributing factor to the seriousness of the damage to your bike.

 

[twowheelnut]

"White lines – now this is frustrating. A society that can lob satellites into geo-synchronous orbits in space for all sorts of reasons and produce GPS systems that can tell you where you are – at any time, anywhere on the planet, to a distance of a foot or two – cannot come up with a paint to use for highway markings that does not turn to ice when damp? White lines will throw your bike on the ground with very little provocation when wet – avoid them. In summer, they are warmer, but still slippery!"

I believe you stated the road was dry at the time of your accident. Dude, you've been trying to come up with a reason you crashed for what, 10 pages in 3 threads now? Face it, you fucked up and dumped it. It's OK, really. The important thing is that you didn't get hurt - for that we're all happy. But dang man, trying reason after reason in attempts to get us to satiate your bruised ego (by blaming the bike/road/banana peel/sun-in-your-eyes/shoe-lace-untied/whatever) is getting rather long in the tooth, duncha think? Get the bike fixed, then go for nice, long, safe ride and quit yer bitchin' and perhaps consider refreshing your riding skills by taking a riding course of some sort. Just a thought.

 

[mdisher]

TWN, he said from the get go, he thought it was the paint in the round-a-bout. :blink:

I take it that he was just a bit miffed it made some one's top ten list of reasons for crashin.

Yep, it's some slippery shiznit, but you can't let it get to you or be friggin gun-shy around it now, it is what it is.

 

[weekend rider]

Here is a tip: when you cross any color line on the road it should be crossed at a right angle in the direction of travel.

As an experienced rider , you should have known painted lines are slippery.

Enough said as twn has stated and lets move on :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

weekend rider

 

[galxy5]

it's a bit strange that so many riders are trying to blame the product for the frame damage ,, what kind of damage would there have been if had no slider at all

IMHO we should not call them sliders ,, they are tip over guards that hopefully will protect your engine from grinding into the pavement

in my accident yesterday I hit a car on the left side of the bike ,, with a quick inspection at the dealership after the ER ,, my Skyway puck was damaged on the side not the top ,, that is because the moko V support was bent back from the impact with the car ,, it gauged a hole in the front end of the car ,, and even bent back ,, it protected the fairing when in finaly laid down ,,

we buy products that we feel will do the job for us ,, everyone has different tank bags ,, or risers ,, most of us here do a lot of research on the items we buy and install on our bikes ,, I for one would buy the Skyway sliders again ,, no question ,,

now having said that I will go to the dealership tomorrow to see and take some pics of the damage ,, if the frame is damaged where the MOKO V supports are attached thats just the way it goes ,,

BTW my dealer told the estimator that my bike was worth $10,700 ,,when he talked to me he all but said that's what I'll get if it's totaled ,,

 

[mdisher]

Here is a tip: when you cross any color line on the road it should be crossed at a right angle in the direction of travel.

Thanks for the tip!

I'll keep that in mind... Especially all those scary lines on the sides of the roads, and those big azz cross walks we have to 'turn' through, all the time. Yep, 90 degrees.

Come to think of it, you're right, the guys that design roads and round abouts always, without question, paint the lines so that we can cross them at 90 degrees with ease.

Brilliant!

(Don't take that too harshly there is much sarcasm there, some people just can't seem to detect it.)

 

[BrunDog]

I'm a little late on this one, but damnnnnnn people!

Hasn't anyone realized that Yamaha did not make that hole for us to hang some frame-tweaking lever arm off of? It was designed to mount the engine to the frame. A mount which, by the way, would never have any moment (radial torque) applied to it. Helloooooo?

The fact that R&G, Skyway, and the rest of the world attached their slider bolts there was strictly out of convenience. It was never purpose rated. If you want purpose rated, get a crash frame like stunt riders have. Those are designed to withstand hard crashes and absorb/transfer energy appropriately.

Now, that being blurted, I think that a softer, more sacrifical material would be less likely to transfer energy and more likely to absorb it(deformation). I believe that the delrin pucks are better suited than aluminum in this regard.

Nonetheless, we have all taken advantage of a mount location that engineers never intended for us to use as such. In many cases, we have been getting away with it. In some, we wont. To use or not use sliders and what type is a personal decision. But let's accept the responsibility as our own, not Yamaha's, Skyway's, R&G, or any others.

-BD

 

[Bounce]

Those aluminum frame wrecking time bombs?

I like it! FWTB!

That goes along with the desciption of Dungflop Elite II tires; EBWT (Evil Bike Wrecking Tires).

I'm not sure anyone has stepped up and suggested that Skyway is liable or responsible for the outcome. The potential problem was discussed at length when they first came out. People specifically said they didn't care and that they preferred the looks of the Skyway design, so they were choosing to purchase the product. Like someone else already said in this thread: they were adults who went into it with their eyes open. Skyway made a product people wanted and bought after lengthy discussions. End of story.

Butt...

FWTB

EBWT

Will continue on in the annals of bike lore.

 

[weekend rider]

when is everyone going to wake up and smell the coffee. they are not sliders at all, they are

impact protectors for when you drop your bike.

If they were marketed as impact proctectors no one would buy them !!!!

I say lets gang up and sue for mega bucks :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

Skyway got beat up on this one. Now lets put the blame where it belongs on the rider and only the rider, no white lines, no nothing just rider error :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[bramfrank]

Hasn't anyone realized that Yamaha did not make that hole for us to hang some frame-tweaking lever arm off of? It was designed to mount the engine to the frame. A mount which, by the way, would never have any moment (radial torque) applied to it. Helloooooo?
The fact that R&G, Skyway, and the rest of the world attached their slider bolts there was strictly out of convenience. It was never purpose rated. If you want purpose rated, get a crash frame like stunt riders have. Those are designed to withstand hard crashes and absorb/transfer energy appropriately.

Now, that being blurted, I think that a softer, more sacrifical material would be less likely to transfer energy and more likely to absorb it(deformation). I believe that the delrin pucks are better suited than aluminum in this regard.

Nonetheless, we have all taken advantage of a mount location that engineers never intended for us to use as such. In many cases, we have been getting away with it. In some, we wont. To use or not use sliders and what type is a personal decision. But let's accept the responsibility as our own, not Yamaha's, Skyway's, R&G, or any others.

-BD

Better tell that to Yamaha since they sell one for our bikes as well:
https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/detail...;item=2150&

Theirs seems to be made of a Delrin-like material.