Clatter on start up

[tripletango]

Scared the sh 1 t out of me. Bike sat for a week on center stand after trip to CA. Started it up, to warm up for oil change, loud clattering sound from engine area. Stopped engine to make sure it was not hanging in a gear.

Tried again. Would not start. Kind of firing on one cylinder. Turned off key and on again retried.

Engine started with noises (2 or 3 seconds) like it had no oil or oil drained down. Lot of valve gear noise. Then a huge tick from a valve. Gawd so that is what it sounds like!

After 30 seconds engine ran like a sewing machine with no noise other than a purr.

What in the hell caused that?

Oil level full. Yamaha filter. Getting on for 4 thousand miles on oil, mostly trip to CA back to TX. Oil synthetic 5w 40. No previous problems.

Could gasoline have drained into sump? A guess.

 

[FJRSTAR]

Bike sat for a week on center stand after trip to CA. Started it up, to warm up for oil change, loud clattering sound from engine area. Stopped engine to make sure it was not hanging in a gear.Tried again. Would not start. Kind of firing on one cylinder. Turned off key and on again retried.

That is the way my 2004 model sounded after the TPS acted up. It sounded like it was not firing at all. I tried starting it several times. It would just turn over and when it finally started, it sounded noisy and then eventually smoothed out. The code was 16, which is a malfunctioning TPS. It did it once in 25,000 miles and then no more. It had sat for like two weeks in the garage.

It did sound like crap for about eight seconds.

Check this thread out... https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?a...indpost&p=49859

 

[tripletango]

Bike sat for a week on center stand after trip to CA. Started it up, to warm up for oil change, loud clattering sound from engine area. Stopped engine to make sure it was not hanging in a gear.Tried again. Would not start. Kind of firing on one cylinder. Turned off key and on again retried.

That is the way my 2004 model sounded after the TPS acted up. It sounded like it was not firing at all. I tried starting it several times. It would just turn over and when it finally started, it sounded noisy and then eventually smoothed out. The code was 16, which is a malfunctioning TPS. It did it once in 25,000 miles and then no more. It had sat for like two weeks in the garage.

It did sound like crap for about eight seconds.

Check this thread out...  https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?a...indpost&p=49859

Thanks. Yes I had read that thread. Sounds pretty dam close to what happened to mine. No error code on mine. A terrible clatter of internals. Drained oil and have glass under the drain. Constant drip after 3 hours. Smells different.

A theory - if it is gas then the gas could be coming into the cylinder from injectors and draining into the sump. Guess only.

But it may account for the hard starting on second attempt. It did start the first time but shut it down as the noise was bloody awful.

TPS throttle position sensor???

 

[BobbyBlue]

Dude...constant drip...smells different....I'm thinkin' yeast infection...I'd medicate,meditate, rotate and radiate and hope its not ze tick...stay safe and keep the rubber on it !

Bobby

 

[tripletango]

No No No this is much worse. No known meds out there. May have to be shot! Anyway changed oil filter and started it up. No noises. Reprieve in order for the time being.

Makes me wonder about what the long term issues will be due to what seemed to be lack of lube to the valve gear.

Closest I can come to equating the noise is dry lifters in an old car engine.

 

[tripletango]

Evidentially this has happened to others!

"WOW!

Can't believe someone else has experienced this. Bike sat for about one week over the Christmas holiday while visiting family. Got back yesterday and when I started her up there was the most awful clattering sound. I quickly turn it off to remove my helmet to hear better and check the oil level, which was where it should be. Fired it up again and the clattering continued all the time getting quieter and quieter until after about 8 to 10 seconds all that was left was a light clicking sound that eventually ceased after the engine began warming up and was totally gone by the time the first temp bar illuminated. I seldom park the bike on the center stand for any length of time, but for some reason I did this time. I think before this incidence, the longest the bike has not been run has been 2 days since I bought it 2-1/2 years ago. It's an 04. It now has 52,300 miles on it.

Like Tripletango, it sounded like an engine with worn hydraulic valve lifters that are real noisy until the oil pressure has a chance to pump them up. And it sounded like it was coming from the top of the engine as opposed to low in the bottom end. I don't recall if I fully let the self diagnosis process complete before I thumbed the starter and so maybe the fuel pump had not pumped up to pressure yet. I'm guessing that what I heard was injector related but can't be sure. Another symptom that may or may not be related is that of a little rough running and stumbling on a dead cold engine along with about a 25 -30 mile drop in miles per fill up which translates to about 5 mpg less mileage. All of this over the past cold snap here in the PNW where the morning temps were in the upper 20s to low 30s. The roughness and stumbling only lasted a minute or so, so I didn't pay much attention to it except to let the engine warm up longer than I normally do before riding off. And I attributed the lower mileage to that fact that since I was using heated clothing, I kept the RPMs up higher than I otherwise would have to help with keeping the battery charged. Maybe the two sympoms are related, maybe not.

I am just about to do my second valve adjustment check which I did myself at the 26,000 mile mark. But know I'm thinking I should let the dealer take a look at this issue before I complicate things with additional variables since so much of the fuel/injection system has to come off to check and service the valves.

If anyone has any thoughts on this or even confirm that injectors can indeed cause this much noise, I'd be most appreciative. And do you thing leaving it on the center stand as opposed to the side stand has any bearing on it?

 

[tripletango]

I am thinking along injector lines as well. A possibility - steel tank large swings in temperature. Maybe some water from condensation in the fuel? When on the center stand for a while the condensate can migrate to the fuel pick up point. I don't think that will happen it when on the side stand. I know when the fuel is very low the bike will not start when it is on the side stand. Meaning the fuel pick up is sucking air. So water will be in the side of the tank.

Also been reading posts regarding rust in fuel and filters.

I looked at the oil - it is dark but clean. Tore apart the Yamaha oil filter - dark from oil passage and definitely not blocked.

Bad Fuel ???? Just a thought

Bike running fine lately. Being stored on center stand for 2 weeks while I am riding my MZ in NC at my daughters place. We will see if it does the same thing when I start it in about a week.

 

[Bikewhore]

hahahah chalk me up for the same issue. I went out to ride to work this am and no starty-error code 16. My bike has only been sitting for about a week though. I'll fiddle with the throttle some and hope my bike starts.

 

[tripletango]

I posed the same question to guys in the euro fjr forum. If you are interested here is the url

https://www.fjrowners.ws/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=422

 

[Parachutist]

Ditto here. Left on centerstand after 4000 miles in seven day trip. Got the same stuff scared out of me when I first started it up. First and only time it's happened. Have 8000 on it now.

 

[tripletango]

I have had engines that periodically have initial noise on startup but run perfectly after 1 - 2 seconds. These engines have continued to function perfectly for normal service lives. Your issue is almost certainly associated with oil drain from the upper engine areas. You could try an oil with a higher viscosity at low temps but this cuts both ways. Higher startup visc means slightly longer time to reach full lube / support but may slow the rate of drain after shut down of the engine. Construction clearances, castings and oil galleries may also vary slightly between engines.

If the only difference between the presence/absence of this noise is the long term vertical or inclined storage of the bike then the problem is level based. The only significant component that is level based is oil which is being retained when inclined. I dont believe there is a real world issue here. If the issue continues to irritate just leave it on the side stand or give it a run more frequently while stored upright.

Cheers

Lenz

Yes good points all. One bike used 5W40 and the other 20W50 that had reported loud mechanical noises. The other bikes reported poor starting and a computer error. Two different problems as I see it.

Oil draindown a possibility but why just once? Could condensation resulting in small amounts of water in the injectors also cause mechanical noise?

This was a very loud clattering sound not sure the injectors could create that racket.

How about a filter that had been used for 4000 miles that flow was restricted to the point the bypass opened?

All high quality oils these days leave a coating on the metal parts that will survive a few secound of running before wearing away and causing metal to metal contact. This noise was absolutely immediate and then went away.

I will wait to see if it happens again!

 

[radman]

A filter used for 4000 miles? Way to save that $7.50.

 

[tripletango]

A filter used for 4000 miles? Way to save that $7.50.

No and I always the Yamaha filter. Actually that's how many miles I rode to CA and back from TX. mostly hiway miles in cool temps. According to book that should be no problem. In Euroland they are recommending 5000 mile oil changes.

There has to be a ton of crap in the oil to block a filter in 4000 miles.

 

[radman]

A filter used for 4000 miles?  Way to save that $7.50.

No and I always the Yamaha filter. Actually that's how many miles I rode to CA and back from TX. mostly hiway miles in cool temps. According to book that should be no problem. In Euroland they are recommending 5000 mile oil changes.

There has to be a ton of crap in the oil to block a filter in 4000 miles.

Well, I use a Pure1 filter, change at half that, even on a trip, and have never had the no oil rattle, ever. You must be doing something right.

 

[rogerfjrfaster]

Tripple

What I use is Shell Rotella with half a bottele of STP the stp will stick while the oil will drain off to some extent so you will have something there when starting up.

rogerfjrfaster

 

[radman]

Look guys, here's the deal. I change oil maniaclly, in the feej, for a couple reasons, and I do so well before the "recommended" interval, something I swear these jokers pull outta the air or their hat or sumpin.

1) The FJR is prone to fuel dilution, the more cold starts, the worse it is, and

2) The FJR, like a lot of scoots, share duty with the tranny on engine oil.

Engine dilutes engine oil with fuel, tranny shears engine oil which has been diluted into useless ****. Some IBA guys go for ages on the oil, but they are never shuttin it off, and besides, they can run peanut butter and honey for all I care, Frank gets the best, gets it often, 16,500 and no ticky and no rattle and this is typical for my motors. Do it your way, I don't care any more than the for the effort it takes to write this. The argument on oil and what to use and when to do it goes on endlessly, hence the creation of the Endless Argument Hole. Everybody's got the hot skinny on this, fo sho.....

 

[tripletango]

alan sh wrote:

I started mine today after about 2 weeks of it sitting on the centre stand.

It was hard to start (fuel?) then clattered a bit for about 5 seconds and then started purring as normal.

The more I think about it, it is the injectors. Oiling problems don't cause hard starting and hard starting and being on the center stand are common in all reported instances It is also very intermittant so unlikely the oiling system or real problems develop quickly.

I will bet that small amounts of moisture in the fuel from condensation or bad fuel precipitate when the bike is not used for a few days and that a small amount of this water is being fed initially into the injectors by the pressure pump. This will cause starting problems. Water is not an injector lube. That may be the cause of the noise. It is only for a few seconds so the quantity of contaminant must be tiny or the bike would not start at all.

In addition when the bike is on the side stand there is no way that the condensed water can get to the fuel pickup. (see below)

If there is small quantities of water when the bike is in motion it is probably emulsified with the fuel and causes miniscule problems that are undetectable.

However not exactly sure where the pick up point of the fuel is from the tank so this may be a bunch of bunk!!!

 

[tripletango]

TrippleWhat I use is Shell Rotella with half a bottele of STP the stp will stick while the oil will drain off to some extent so you will have something there when starting up.

                                  rogerfjrfaster

Is that OK for the clutch? Everything I have read says no CE rated oil and no antifriction additives.

 

[tripletango]

Look guys, here's the deal.  I change oil maniaclly, in the feej, for a couple reasons, and I do so well before the "recommended" interval,  something I swear these jokers pull outta the air or their hat or sumpin.  1) The FJR is prone to fuel dilution, the more cold starts, the worse it is, and

2) The FJR, like a lot of scoots, share duty with the tranny on engine oil.

Engine dilutes engine oil with fuel, tranny shears engine oil which has been diluted into useless ****.  Some IBA guys go for ages on the oil, but they are never shuttin it off, and besides, they can run peanut butter and honey for all I care, Frank gets the best, gets it often, 16,500 and no ticky and no rattle and this is typical for my motors.  Do it your way, I don't care any more than the for the effort it takes to write this.  The argument on oil and what to use and when to do it goes on endlessly, hence the creation of the Endless Argument Hole. Everybody's got the hot skinny on this, fo sho.....

I agree with you 100%! As you say changing oil more often must be better! All of the miles I put on the FJR are journies of hundreds of miles. No short trips and no real flogging (except when!!!). The bike is so fast you don't need to use but maybe 75% of the performance normally so no big stress on the motor. Sometimes I let it go further up to 4500 miles with synthetic oil because the bike is not stressed.

I am pretty sure it is not an oiling problem that is causing the noise. It is far too intermittant.

My engine is totally quiet with no unusual mechanical noises at 15,000 miles. Sewing machine quiet. Beautiful! Almost all the time!