Dead FJR - no starter engage/spin

[hppants]

I'm still trying to get a definitive answer to what the OP actually "hears" when he tries to start the bike?

If I go back and re-read this thread, it appears that he hears the fuel pump, but does not hear the starter motor moving?

If that is true, then first try known good battery.

Then jump out the clutch and side stand switch and rule that out.

Then, jump starter relay to rule that out.

Then, pull the starter and check current draw and resistance on the starter motor.

Then we start chasing gremlins in the wiring harness and possibly the ignition switch.

 

[eflyguy]

I just went and started my FJR for the first time in a few weeks - as I knew the fuel manifold would need to be pressurized.

Here's what the fuel pump sounds like - the high-pitch whine you hear when you first turn on the ignition. You won't hear that if you turn it off and back on again without starting the bike, as the system is already pressurized.




.. and, fwiw, jumping the existing battery from a car (not running!!!) and trying to start the bike will quickly tell you if it's the battery.

 

[Fred W]

You won't hear that if you turn it off and back on again without starting the bike, as the system is already pressurized.

Nope. Fuel pump runs for those 2 seconds every time you turn the key from off to on with the kill switch in the run position. Just did it 3 times back to back. As mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any pressure sensing switch anywhere in the fuel system.

I couldn't hear your fuel pump in the video at all, but could clearly hear that there is something wrong with your muffler.

 

[wfooshee]

Guessing battery, starter relay or safety switches ie. neutral, sidestand, or brake lever switch .Are you squeezing the brake handle? It's ok, I forgot once, Ha.

There's no brake interlock on the starter. If the bike's in neutral, the starter is enabled. If it's in gear, the sidestand must be up and the clutch lever must be pulled. In either case, the kill switch must be in "Run." No other conditions inhibit starting.

If you try to start with the kill switch on Kill, there is no fuel pump. If you try to start with the switch in Run but starting is disabled by the interlock relay, you get the fuel pump but no starter, at least on a Gen-I. Fuel pump runs as long as you hold the starter button.

In both cases, the check engine light illuminates while the starter button is pressed. If you see the check engine while trying to start, then starting is inhibited for some reason. If the fuel pump runs while starting is inhibited, then the ECU thinks that the bike is in gear and the sidestand is down, or if the stand is up, the clutch is not pulled. In other words, the conditions haven't been met for the starter interlock relay to permit the starter to run.

You may have a bad interlock relay, or bad wiring going to it.

The thing I need to know to continue is whether you see the check engine light when you hit the starter button. If so, something is wrong at the interlock relay.

 

[Constant Mesh]

"Pushing starter button dims instrumentation normally"

From your first post.

This is an indication that a motor is started when you press the starter pushbutton. Don't know if it's just the fuel pump or also the starter motor.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

GMAK,why you don't post a video to hear that sound...??

Will make the things more clear...

 

[Fred W]

If you try to start with the kill switch on Kill, there is no fuel pump. If you try to start with the switch in Run but starting is disabled by the interlock relay, you get the fuel pump but no starter, at least on a Gen-I. Fuel pump runs as long as you hold the starter button.

This is definitely not true on a 3rd Gen. If the kill switch is in the run position, the fuel pump will run after switching the key on, but if the bike is in gear and the clutch is not pulled, there is no fuel pump sound when pressing the starter button.

In both cases, the check engine light illuminates while the starter button is pressed. If you see the check engine while trying to start, then starting is inhibited for some reason. If the fuel pump runs while starting is inhibited, then the ECU thinks that the bike is in gear and the sidestand is down, or if the stand is up, the clutch is not pulled. In other words, the conditions haven't been met for the starter interlock relay to permit the starter to run.

This is also not true on 3rd Gens. There is no check engine light when the starter button is pressed when the starter interlock is inhibiting via kickstand or gear position. Since on a 3rd Gen the starter button is the opposite side of the same rocker switch that is the kill switch it is impossible to press the starter button with the kill switch in the "Kill" position.

I guess someone would need to test these things on a 2nd Gen to know for sure what GMAK should be hearing.

 

[wfooshee]

Since on a 3rd Gen the starter button is the opposite side of the same rocker switch that is the kill switch it is impossible to press the starter button with the kill switch in the "Kill" position.

I didn't address that because his bike's a 2007, but I really think that putting the starter switch and kill switch on the same rocker is the best thing to happen to motorcycles since..... motorcycles. At least electrically.

Someone with a Gen-II, go out to the garage (NOW!!!!) and put the bike in gear, stand down, turn it on and press the start button. Does it run the fuel pump or not? Does it light the Check engine light?

 

[eflyguy]

Someone with a Gen-II, go out to the garage (NOW!!!!) and put the bike in gear, stand down, turn it on and press the start button. Does it run the fuel pump or not? Does it light the Check engine light?

Done. Fuel pump runs as soon as key is turned, just like it did when the bike was not in gear. Nothing happens when you press the starter.

 

[eflyguy]

(no CEL, either)

 

[Fred W]

OK, now there is still a possibility that the fuel pump runs when you press the starter button and the fuel Injection is fully enabled. You wouldn't hear it since normally the starter is running at that time too. The way to test that would be to disconnect the starter wire from the starter relay and see if you hear the fuel pump when pressing the starter button, but that may a bit too invasive a procedure to ask anyone to do on their bike just for knowledge.

 

[eflyguy]

OK - more tests.

Kill switch enabled (no run) - turn on ignition, no fuel pump. Kill switch to "run", fuel pump does NOT run. However, pressing starter does then cause the fuel pump to run - I just tapped it and you could hear it.

If fuel pump ran (as normal) when ignition was turned on, it still runs immediately when you press the starter, but only for 1 second (ignition on it runs for 5 seconds)..

When the starter can run (neutral, or in-gear with clutch pulled) every time you press the starter, the fuel pump runs for 1 second.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Come on guys!

The fuel pump and the injectors are fed from the same power relay.

You know if the engine is cranking the injectors must be powered, otherwise the engine couldn't start -- no fuel.

If the injectors are powered, the fuel pump is powered and running too.

 

[mcatrophy]

I have tried many tests on when the fuel pump runs before the start button is pressed. Below is what I have found:

If the kill switch is OFF (engine can run), and regardless of being in or out of gear, side-stand up or down, brake lever pulled or not (dunno about clutch lever, I've never had an FJR with one of those), the fuel pump runs for about 3 seconds, then it stops.

This is nothing to do with fuel pressure, it is timed from the key being turned (see here for when I was using the pump to empty the tank).

While the kill switch is the ON position (engine can't run), the fuel pump won't run. But, if you switch the kill switch to OFF partway through that 3 seconds from the ignition switch being turned on, the fuel pump will run for the remainder of the 3 second period.

If you turn the kill switch OFF after that 3 second period, the pump will not run at all.

What it boils down to is that the pump will run within that 3 second period whenever the kill switch is OFF - you can even play stop/start of the pump by flicking the kill switch rapidly between the ON and OFF positions within those first three seconds. After the 3 seconds the pump won't run regardless of what you do with the kill switch.

This is true on my Gen 2 and Gen 3 bikes.

 

[wfooshee]

Come on guys!
The fuel pump and the injectors are fed from the same power relay.

You know if the engine is cranking the injectors must be powered, otherwise the engine couldn't start -- no fuel.

If the injectors are powered, the fuel pump is powered and running too.

But if the starter is disabled by the interlock relay, the engine won't crank. The pump runs for that second when the starter button is pressed, but the starter does not engage. My "theory" is that the OP's issue is from the starter interlock relay. I believe his bike thinks the sidestand is down.

 

[Enn]

I have had few cases, when pushing the start button on my 08 did not activate the starter, nor did it click the starter pullrelay. Fuel pump went on with ignition. Needed to press couple of itmes, then the starter would engage. Yamaha mechanic said it is time to replace the start button.

Maybe its the same for OP?

 

[hppants]

I had that same problem on my Gen 1. I removed the handle bar control and cleaned the contacts on the starter button, and it fixed it.

However, since the OP hears SOMETHING, I don't think that is the issue.

I realize that we are in a full scale debate about when and if the fuel pump comes on, but what I really want to know from the OP is a crystal clear clarification of exactly what he is hearing?

 

[Fred W]

I think OP has bailed out of the troubleshooting and brought it to a shop.

 

[odot]

I've seen some beat up horses before but this one is a bloody pulp of a mess.

On topic.......change the battery again.

 

[Donal]

"The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point."
I'm not sure this is correct.

I don't believe the fuel pressure is being monitored by the system. So, I believe the run time of the pump at key-on is a fixed time controlled by the computer. When the engine is cranked/started the pump runs continuously until engine shutdown.

The fuel pressure regulator is at the pump but I don't believe there's any pressure sensor sending info back to the computer. At key-on the pump runs for a programmed time then it shuts off if the engine is not cranked/started.

The injectors are powered from the same relay as the pump.

I agree it's not being monitored by the 'system' BUT it is controlled by a pressure switch in the pump assembly..........

OK it's retraction time. I have no idea where I got the idea that there is a pressure switch in the fuel pump. I 'feel' it was mentioned on the forum by someone who had worked on a pump but maybe I just dreamed it!......

The pump is just a dumb motor which runs/stops in response to a signal from the ECU.

It's not the first time I have been wrong and I'm confident it will not be the last................