BigOgre
Well-known member
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Does Hi-Viz gear really make you more visible to other motorists?
- Thread starter Fred W
- Start date
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wheatonFJR
...
Even abstinence isn't safe...we're all gonna die of something. Might as well enjoy the living...The only true safety is abstinence.i learned that lesson about 850,000 miles ago on a Honda 750K.
ionbeam
2 FUN
It's true we are all going to die of something, but I'm trying to put it off as long as possible. If I do go unexpectedly I would prefer that it was natural and not an old lady in a Buick.Even abstinence isn't safe...we're all gonna die of something. Might as well enjoy the living...The only true safety is abstinence.i learned that lesson about 850,000 miles ago on a Honda 750K.
It seems to always come down to this whenever there is any sort of a discussion about making ones self more conspicuous, whether it be through wearing certain clothes or installing special lighting. The detractors always say it won't matter if the person isn't looking. That you still always have to be on your guard, and ride like nobody can see you. They are correct, of course.
The question is, won't these measures help in the 99.999% of situations that you normally encounter, where the other drivers actually are looking down the road and not drunk out of their gourds? When you look at actual compiled accident statistics, one of the more (if not the most) common situation for a motorcycle accident is the car driver did not see the motorcycle, and so violated their right of way. Anything that you can do to improve that situation would seem to be money well spent to me.
Still looking for that reference material alluded to in the first post.
The question is, won't these measures help in the 99.999% of situations that you normally encounter, where the other drivers actually are looking down the road and not drunk out of their gourds? When you look at actual compiled accident statistics, one of the more (if not the most) common situation for a motorcycle accident is the car driver did not see the motorcycle, and so violated their right of way. Anything that you can do to improve that situation would seem to be money well spent to me.
Still looking for that reference material alluded to in the first post.
TomInPA
Well-known member
I posted a study that showed a 37% effectiveness for fluorescent gear. Any result less than 100% would seem to fit your criteria, unless you were looking for the negative hypothesis, that bright gear actually causes accident.
I posted a study that showed a 37% effectiveness for fluorescent gear. Any result less than 100% would seem to fit your criteria, unless you were looking for the negative hypothesis, that bright gear actually causes accident.
I saw your post. I guess I'm not following your logic here.
A result of less than 100% doesn't mean that using HiViz gear does nothing, just that it is not effective in all cases. We already know that is true. To the contrary, the study shows a 37% effectiveness, which is a (statistically significant) positive effect, meaning that it does do something.
For the HiViz gear to not do anything, the results in the study would be a 0% (or statistically insignificant) difference. Right?
Here's the quote from the first post:
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HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
OMG...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Even if someone did have a study, it would be argued endlessly about why it's right or wrong.
"It works X% of the time" is total BS anyway. If you don't get hit it worked. If it doesn't work...Guess what!
"It works X% of the time" is total BS anyway. If you don't get hit it worked. If it doesn't work...Guess what!
AVGeek
Well-known member
Back in, of all things, my speech class in college, we talked about the most visible color combo to the human eye, which is black on yellow (just like most of our traffic warning signs!). I think wearing Hi-Viz, bright or contrasting colors is all about shifting the odds, however slightly, to our advantage. Yes, there will always be morons on the road who don't pay attention at all, but I'm watching out for them. I did pick up a High-Viz jacket from Cycle Gear, and I have seen people "notice" me from the first day I started wearing it (I saw a person start to turn left in front of me, but hesitate when they realized I was there). Someone earlier mentioned "Mitigating Risk", and I think that's the best way to approach your personal safety. I intend to ride bikes for many more years, so have taken as many prudent steps as possible to achieve that outcome.
My point exactly. It isn't about percentages, it's about does it actually do anything or not.
The statement was made that it doesn't work ever.
Personally I think that is BS being said by people that don't want to look dorky, so they are trying to justify themselves.
Kind'a like the ones who still say that that it is less safe to wear a helmet, even though all evidence shows otherwise.
The statement was made that it doesn't work ever.
That infers it is useless and you shouldn't bother wearing it.
Personally I think that is BS being said by people that don't want to look dorky, so they are trying to justify themselves.
Kind'a like the ones who still say that that it is less safe to wear a helmet, even though all evidence shows otherwise.
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wheatonFJR
...
I like looking dorky...it's safer...and I'm all about the safety. (except when I'm in a hurry)
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gixxerjasen
Well-known member
Wow oh wow. I make one comment in a thread about SoutherCruizers loud ass jacket and it turns into all of this. I've spent two days trying to catch up on this.
Had I known it would turn into this I would have worded it otherwise. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I should have said "Most motorists" or something along those lines. The attached studies were the ones I was thinking of when I wrote that.
Since it was my quote that started all this, I'll throw out my thoughts on the subject now that I'm all caught up. I'll also state that I currently wear a Roadcrafter that is silver with high viz ballistics.
First, I think that trying to infer any percentage to this is very difficult. Looking over statistics and saying that these riders were wearing High Viz gear vs those who weren't doesn't take into account all of the other variables as well. Did any of those riders have bright flashing lights on their bikes? Did some refuse to ride in the city? Did some refuse to ride at night? Too many other variables to pin the numbers down on high viz only.
As for visibility, for any of us to say that we notice riders in high viz isn't very telling. As motorcyclists we tend to notice motorcycles more than non-motorcyclists. Remember when you first started riding and suddenly it was like the whole world bought motorcycles? You didn't notice them as much before as after.
Also, like many things preventative, it's very difficult to know how effective it was. You go to leave for the day and there's a driver out there who is going to perform a maneuver that is going to kill you. But today you donned that new high viz jacket and they noticed you and you remained alive because they noticed it. You don't know that it saved your life because the event never happened but it might have happened if you were wearing black. How do you know this though? You don't. Also, for those who say that it's saved them because they saw someone notice it...I don't know if the high viz saved you there either. The fact that you noticed them noticing means you were paying attention. Likely the maneuver that they would have pulled would have been anticipated by you and you'd have been able to evade them, offer some driving tips and make hand gestures. But since you were paying attention, that's probably what would have saved your life the most. It's the driver you didn't see notice your jacket that would be the one to kill you.
I used to drive a bright yellow F150 around all the time. It was a huge monstrosity of obnoxious yellow vehicle. It amazed me how many times someone would start to pull into my lane only to jerk back when they noticed the big yellow blob headed down the highway in their path. That truck taught me that if folks don't see it, then they sure as hell don't see me on my motorcycle.
While you can argue that you want to do everything you can to draw attention to yourself, you will choose to draw the line somewhere. Some folks draw the line and lighting up their bike with flashy things, some at high viz gear. Heck, if you want to go all the way, buy yourself a bright yellow Ford F150 and drive that instead, but I guarantee you, that's not a total solution either. Where you draw that line is up to you.
One thing not mentioned so far is not just whether or not the drivers are looking, but whether or not they care. I was actually thinking on this subject this morning while threading my way around the insane Dallas traffic. I was cruising in the far right lane when a guy in a beat up pickup truck three lanes to my left decided that this was the exit he wanted to take and zippeed straight across all those lanes right across my nose. He even looked at me as he went by. High viz or no, that guy was going to exit right now and he didn't care one whit about me.
But....
I think the important takeaway is that none of this makes you invincible. We all know this, but really, no matter what you do, you need to keep it in your head that you are vulnerable and invisible. There's no magic bubble around you to protect you from all situations. The only way to not be killed on your motorcycle is, as previously stated, to stay at home. And even then, you still are subject to being removed from the planet for any other number of reasons.
Had I known it would turn into this I would have worded it otherwise. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I should have said "Most motorists" or something along those lines. The attached studies were the ones I was thinking of when I wrote that.
Since it was my quote that started all this, I'll throw out my thoughts on the subject now that I'm all caught up. I'll also state that I currently wear a Roadcrafter that is silver with high viz ballistics.
First, I think that trying to infer any percentage to this is very difficult. Looking over statistics and saying that these riders were wearing High Viz gear vs those who weren't doesn't take into account all of the other variables as well. Did any of those riders have bright flashing lights on their bikes? Did some refuse to ride in the city? Did some refuse to ride at night? Too many other variables to pin the numbers down on high viz only.
As for visibility, for any of us to say that we notice riders in high viz isn't very telling. As motorcyclists we tend to notice motorcycles more than non-motorcyclists. Remember when you first started riding and suddenly it was like the whole world bought motorcycles? You didn't notice them as much before as after.
Also, like many things preventative, it's very difficult to know how effective it was. You go to leave for the day and there's a driver out there who is going to perform a maneuver that is going to kill you. But today you donned that new high viz jacket and they noticed you and you remained alive because they noticed it. You don't know that it saved your life because the event never happened but it might have happened if you were wearing black. How do you know this though? You don't. Also, for those who say that it's saved them because they saw someone notice it...I don't know if the high viz saved you there either. The fact that you noticed them noticing means you were paying attention. Likely the maneuver that they would have pulled would have been anticipated by you and you'd have been able to evade them, offer some driving tips and make hand gestures. But since you were paying attention, that's probably what would have saved your life the most. It's the driver you didn't see notice your jacket that would be the one to kill you.
I used to drive a bright yellow F150 around all the time. It was a huge monstrosity of obnoxious yellow vehicle. It amazed me how many times someone would start to pull into my lane only to jerk back when they noticed the big yellow blob headed down the highway in their path. That truck taught me that if folks don't see it, then they sure as hell don't see me on my motorcycle.
While you can argue that you want to do everything you can to draw attention to yourself, you will choose to draw the line somewhere. Some folks draw the line and lighting up their bike with flashy things, some at high viz gear. Heck, if you want to go all the way, buy yourself a bright yellow Ford F150 and drive that instead, but I guarantee you, that's not a total solution either. Where you draw that line is up to you.
One thing not mentioned so far is not just whether or not the drivers are looking, but whether or not they care. I was actually thinking on this subject this morning while threading my way around the insane Dallas traffic. I was cruising in the far right lane when a guy in a beat up pickup truck three lanes to my left decided that this was the exit he wanted to take and zippeed straight across all those lanes right across my nose. He even looked at me as he went by. High viz or no, that guy was going to exit right now and he didn't care one whit about me.
But....
I think the important takeaway is that none of this makes you invincible. We all know this, but really, no matter what you do, you need to keep it in your head that you are vulnerable and invisible. There's no magic bubble around you to protect you from all situations. The only way to not be killed on your motorcycle is, as previously stated, to stay at home. And even then, you still are subject to being removed from the planet for any other number of reasons.
beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Well Marky-Mark, if dorkiness equals longevity, then you are going to live as long as Methuselah; and the Book of Genesis says that was 969 years! Really!
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gixxerjasen
Well-known member
SouthernCruzer's insane high viz jacket.
Jasen, Great post! You are right on all counts, of course.
Except I don't see anything in the New Zealand study that infers that wearing loud colors doesn't make you somewhat safer. Like any statistical study they can be massaged to make whatever point you are trying to make, but even if you throw out the percentages the study (attempts to) shows that the use of brighter colors is beneficial, if somewhat marginally so, which is even stated in their own conclusion. You can discredit the study, but that is what it says.
I thought maybe there was some other study somewhere that concluded that wearing bright colors was ineffective.
Also, it's not something that you "started" here so much as it's something worth discussing, IMO. Nobody is picking on you or what you said.
There have been a lot of thoughtful posts in this thread about various ways to be safer when you ride. And we all get to decide whether we want to use any of them or not. The main goal is to be able to ride again another day. How much better can it get?
PS - I just bought some Olympia HiViz this winter with the reduced pricing, and I intentionally did not order the toxic. I'm sure it is better than the regular yellow and black HiVis, but ewe...
PPS - One point not previously raised about HiViz jackets is those suckers get dirty really fast! And dirty HiViz is not nearly as eye catching as when clean. Some would say it gives you "road cred" but I don't really buy into that. It just looks like ass. OTOH, a dark colored jacket can be worn nearly forever and never shows the road grime.
Except I don't see anything in the New Zealand study that infers that wearing loud colors doesn't make you somewhat safer. Like any statistical study they can be massaged to make whatever point you are trying to make, but even if you throw out the percentages the study (attempts to) shows that the use of brighter colors is beneficial, if somewhat marginally so, which is even stated in their own conclusion. You can discredit the study, but that is what it says.
I thought maybe there was some other study somewhere that concluded that wearing bright colors was ineffective.
Also, it's not something that you "started" here so much as it's something worth discussing, IMO. Nobody is picking on you or what you said.
There have been a lot of thoughtful posts in this thread about various ways to be safer when you ride. And we all get to decide whether we want to use any of them or not. The main goal is to be able to ride again another day. How much better can it get?
PS - I just bought some Olympia HiViz this winter with the reduced pricing, and I intentionally did not order the toxic. I'm sure it is better than the regular yellow and black HiVis, but ewe...
PPS - One point not previously raised about HiViz jackets is those suckers get dirty really fast! And dirty HiViz is not nearly as eye catching as when clean. Some would say it gives you "road cred" but I don't really buy into that. It just looks like ass. OTOH, a dark colored jacket can be worn nearly forever and never shows the road grime.
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Like that poor fella in FL who went to bed and ended up sucked into the bowels of the earth...When it's yer time, it's yer time.
gixxerjasen
Well-known member
Trust me, I've been on this board long enough to know when someone is picking on me. There were no mentions of goats or boogers so we are in the clear. I did want to make it clear that my quote was taken somewhat out of context. I originally was't meaning to quote specifically but rather pick on SC's obnoxious jacket.
I thought about mentioning the dirty part, but that kind of falls into talking about looking dorky or fashion. That said, go take a look at any HiViz roadcrafters for sale on ADVRider and find me one that sparkles. If so, it was likely never worn. I'm not sure if even regular cleaning can keep those things from looking dingy. I've worn black before and it NEVER looks dingy. I have a yellow and black leather jacket from Dianese and it has LOTS of road cred. On the other hand, when you walk into a restaurant with a dingy dirty smelly hiviz suit on, you do get seated in the quietest corner of the establishment. You know, well away from all the decent clean patrons.
I thought about mentioning the dirty part, but that kind of falls into talking about looking dorky or fashion. That said, go take a look at any HiViz roadcrafters for sale on ADVRider and find me one that sparkles. If so, it was likely never worn. I'm not sure if even regular cleaning can keep those things from looking dingy. I've worn black before and it NEVER looks dingy. I have a yellow and black leather jacket from Dianese and it has LOTS of road cred. On the other hand, when you walk into a restaurant with a dingy dirty smelly hiviz suit on, you do get seated in the quietest corner of the establishment. You know, well away from all the decent clean patrons.
dcarver
Well-known member
Fred wanted published work.
I have none.
..now, I'm off to Wikepedia so I can be 'published'.
When I return...
:****:
Hug n' Kisses
(great thread, Fred!)
I have none.
..now, I'm off to Wikepedia so I can be 'published'.
When I return...
:****:
Hug n' Kisses
(great thread, Fred!)
08FJR4ME
-WYNPRO-
All the stats peeps are discussing makes me think they are scued. We all know the pirates where there own colors and they aren't hiViz. Now it seems to me before any stats starts we are already in the lower percentile for wearing hiViz.
Pirates 63 % of riders
HiViz 37% of i riders
Now those stats are most likely the case before an accident even happens. So tell me do you really think you are any safer?
Still taking the other side. someone has to do it.
Dave
Pirates 63 % of riders
HiViz 37% of i riders
Now those stats are most likely the case before an accident even happens. So tell me do you really think you are any safer?
Still taking the other side. someone has to do it.
Dave
gixxerjasen
Well-known member
You didn't account for Ninjas. But then, a good ninja won't show up in statistics either!
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John d
Well-known member
That is probably the foremost reason that bikers have worn black from the beginning. I for one don't like cleaning my road gear. It's bad when riding a naked bike, and having to wipe off layers of bugs after evening rides (black leather cleans up nice and quick, but once wet, stays wet for a long time).Jasen, Great post! You are right on all counts, of course.
Except I don't see anything in the New Zealand study that infers that wearing loud colors doesn't make you somewhat safer. Like any statistical study they can be massaged to make whatever point you are trying to make, but even if you throw out the percentages the study (attempts to) shows that the use of brighter colors is beneficial, if somewhat marginally so, which is even stated in their own conclusion. You can discredit the study, but that is what it says.
I thought maybe there was some other study somewhere that concluded that wearing bright colors was ineffective.
Also, it's not something that you "started" here so much as it's something worth discussing, IMO. Nobody is picking on you or what you said.
There have been a lot of thoughtful posts in this thread about various ways to be safer when you ride. And we all get to decide whether we want to use any of them or not. The main goal is to be able to ride again another day. How much better can it get?
PS - I just bought some Olympia HiViz this winter with the reduced pricing, and I intentionally did not order the toxic. I'm sure it is better than the regular yellow and black HiVis, but ewe...
PPS - One point not previously raised about HiViz jackets is those suckers get dirty really fast! And dirty HiViz is not nearly as eye catching as when clean. Some would say it gives you "road cred" but I don't really buy into that. It just looks like ass. OTOH, a dark colored jacket can be worn nearly forever and never shows the road grime.
Road cred. Nothing says road cred like a worn out black leather riding jacket, but some of mine are gone (too small) or still hanging in a dark corner of a closet. I'm a textile jacket wearer now and like black with reflective trimmings. I should probably arrange my burial plot now.
But, does Hi-Vis gear make you more visible to other motorists. Absolutely YES!, and to other motorcyclists as well. I usually look long and hard at them, and then move back into my lane (just kidding).
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