Drivetrain lack of lubrication

[beemerdons]

Anyone see the irony of Fred saying the splines don't need lubed, but he lubed his? Its not who you are underneath, its what you do that defines you. Fred is a luber, so playing Devil's advocate is just wasting space.
Here is RFH putting Fred in his place. Spoiler: Fred is wearing the tie:

+10, Double Gunny! Hell yes mi Amigo AJ, you don't have to be fecking Freud to figure that one out ese! JSNS!

 

[art miller]

If I found rust on the shaft I would remove it with Naval Jelly not steel wool. After cleaning it well I would coat it with Penetrol which will become dry and prevent future rust. Use a light coat of marine grease on the splines and ride in peace.

 

[Fred W]

Great thought. I wonder if something like penetrol might not be a better, more permanent way to protect the rest of the drivetrain components from corrosion?

 

[Allen_C]

Great thought. I wonder if something like penetrol might not be a better, more permanent way to protect the rest of the drivetrain components from corrosion?

Wait, are you now saying we should try to remove and protect from corrosion? I'm so confused! ;-)
Still no other Gen 3 owners speaking up. Is it because:

1) they are too new to the bike and haven't ridden it long enough to have a tire changed yet?

2) don't know or don't want to do their own maintenance?

3) apprehensive about posting due to probability of getting blasted by others?

4) other

I, for one, do not care about others' opinions of me and I prefer to educate myself in proper and prudent maintenance of my (expensive) toys! JSNS

 

[Fred W]

Great thought. I wonder if something like penetrol might not be a better, more permanent way to protect the rest of the drivetrain components from corrosion?

Wait, are you now saying we should try to remove and protect from corrosion? I'm so confused! ;-)

Yes, yes... Please try to keep up here... . That is what I've been saying all along.

Take it off once, smear it with some sort of crap to prevent it from rusting solid in the future, and then forget about it. The joint does not need lubrication, just anti-corrosion protection. And even that is optional considering none have actually failed.

The sky is definitely not falling!

 

[yamafitter]

That is what I've been saying all along....

Fred, you have been on so many sides of this discussion i don't know how you can keep track of what you said. By the way most of which you have said is dead wrong anyways just in case you have been keeping score.

 

[Fred W]

Bill, have you been hitting the sauce already?

I have not been saying anything other than exactly what I'm saying now. I have not switched sides or positions or anything like that.

If you think I'm "dead wrong" about something, please enlighten us all with the way that you see it. But don't just declare "You are dead wrong" and then run off with no explanation. That really doesn't reflect very well on you, buddy.

 

[twisted]

Great thought. I wonder if something like penetrol might not be a better, more permanent way to protect the rest of the drivetrain components from corrosion?

Wait, are you now saying we should try to remove and protect from corrosion? I'm so confused! ;-)
Still no other Gen 3 owners speaking up. Is it because:

1) they are too new to the bike and haven't ridden it long enough to have a tire changed yet?

2) don't know or don't want to do their own maintenance?

3) apprehensive about posting due to probability of getting blasted by others?

4) other

I, for one, do not care about others' opinions of me and I prefer to educate myself in proper and prudent maintenance of my (expensive) toys! JSNS

I'm in the #1 camp from the above list. Only have about 300 miles on it now in the last 2 weeks since getting it. Ordinarily, I might wait until a tire change is necessary before I go digging for more work to do, but I just may take things apart before that if I get some spare time. (which I should spend riding more, and worrying less)

#2. I will be doing my own maintenance.

#3. Tigers don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. (don't know where this came from, it's not mine)

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

As an aside, let's try to keep the ad hominem attacks down and try to be civil. If you want to participate in this discussion, as banal as it may seem, that's great. But there is no need to get confrontational about it. If you think the discussion is just too stupid, you can always just unsubscribe from it.

No problem.

 

[yamafitter]

Both Ray & Bounce have tried to correct you Fred but you're not taking the hint so why should I bother. By the way I'm cold sober but reading your babble could drive me to drink. The idea that the driveshaft yoke does not move on the output shaft as the suspension moves is complete and utter nonsense. You should know better and you are leading people astray by insisting otherwise because your ego will not let you admit you have made a blunder.

As far as being on all sides of this arguement, others have already commented on that and being a polite Canadian I don't want to dogpile on.

I don't need to unsubscribe from this thread since I never subscribed in the first place and with that I'm outa here. Have a nice day.

 

[FJRBluesman]

The splines on the forward end of the shaft require only a light coat of greasing upon assembly, strictly for anti-corrosion. There is no lateral motion or friction in that spline joint during use. All of that lateral motion is taken up in the spring loaded rear joint, which is inside the final drive and lubed in gear oil.

While I rarely will disagree with FredW, I do here. You have the rear end moving up and thus wanting to thrust the shaft forward into the tranny, and rearward into the coupling there. I find it hard to believe that the rear is the only one that takes up that movement while the front also free floats but doesn't move... why? Because... it chooses not to?

Anyway, not wanting to debate this I agree with FredWs other points. This is a pointless thing (the corrosion on the drive shaft) except keeping the splines lubed. I agree your car has more rust and BS on it brand new, no worries no whining. Enjoy and ride safe.

 

[FJRBluesman]

Anyone have any pictures, or accounts for that matter, of a failed drive-shaft spline on an FJR? Not talking about one that rusted and cant be separated. Looking for one that has actually failed. Striped splines. No more drive.

I have proof!!! On my old BMW K1100! Ate the splines right out of the clutch disc, round hole. Made my output shaft splines look half eaten. And thus is the reason I will NEVER again buy a BMW.

If you don't lube the output shaft splines yearly on those K-motors, you're screwed. That is an $850 job done my Beemer (back in early 2000). It took me an entire weekend to remove the entire rear of the bike, tranny, and to remove ABS lines rebleed, etc. Not a fun task for lubing splines. This is why I now own my second FJR.

Okay, but not examples on an FJR and nothing to do with rust, just lubrication....

 

[MCRIDER007]

Anyone have any pictures, or accounts for that matter, of a failed drive-shaft spline on an FJR? Not talking about one that rusted and cant be separated. Looking for one that has actually failed. Striped splines. No more drive.

I have proof!!! On my old BMW K1100! Ate the splines right out of the clutch disc, round hole. Made my output shaft splines look half eaten. And thus is the reason I will NEVER again buy a BMW.

If you don't lube the output shaft splines yearly on those K-motors, you're screwed. That is an $850 job done my Beemer (back in early 2000). It took me an entire weekend to remove the entire rear of the bike, tranny, and to remove ABS lines rebleed, etc. Not a fun task for lubing splines. This is why I now own my second FJR.

Okay, but not examples on an FJR and nothing to do with rust, just lubrication.... :not_i:

I don't have proof or pictures but the splines on my 1984 Venture Royale failed at about 58K miles after I traded it in. I had the splines lubed for the first time at 35K after hearing of stories of other Venture spline failures. The mechanic said the splines were dry and had excessive wear at 35K and he was going to start checking other Ventures when they came in for rear tire changes. Is this relevant to an FJR? I think so since the punkin and shaft looked identical to the FJR's.

 

[Fred W]

The idea that the driveshaft yoke does not move on the output shaft as the suspension moves is complete and utter nonsense.

OK, so putting aside all of your personal insults and derogatory rhetoric, let's take a closer look at what you said above.

I do understand that the drive shaft needs to provide the ability to elongate as the suspension articulates. As I have said repeatedly, all of that motion is provided for at the rear end of the shaft, where the driveshaft couples with the final drive.

Here is an excerpt from an excellent post done up by SkooterG way back in 2006: Driveshaft / Gear Coupling / Final Drive 101 (a good read if you want to know how this stuff all fits together)

And here is a photo of the pumpkin, and gear coupling with the driveshaft removed. See the spring in the center of the gear coupling? That is there to keep the driveshaft under tension as the swingarm pivots from normal movement. Any fore and aft movement of the driveshaft caused by the swingarm’s pivoting is done in the gear coupling with aid of the spring, and not at the universal joint. The spring is actually putting some pressure to push the driveshaft out of the gear coupling.

The forward splines do not move (slip) within the U-joint yoke's splines because the drive shaft is being forced all the way forward in that joint by the compression spring pushing from the rear end. All lengthening of the shaft required by wheel movement on the suspension is provided for at the back end of the shaft.

You may want to research things more closely before spewing your venomous commentary around. Like I said, it only makes you look bad.

 

[Fred W]

Anyone have any pictures, or accounts for that matter, of a failed drive-shaft spline on an FJR? Not talking about one that rusted and cant be separated. Looking for one that has actually failed. Striped splines. No more drive.

I have proof!!! On my old BMW K1100! Ate the splines right out of the clutch disc, round hole. Made my output shaft splines look half eaten. And thus is the reason I will NEVER again buy a BMW.

On most (all?) BMW drive shafts the lateral elongation is provided for at the splines where the shaft interfaces with the dry clutch disc, The rear end of their drive shafts are fixed in place (no slip provided) so all lateral shaft motion when the suspension moves does occur at that joint. And they fail on a regular basis with and without being greased regularly.

People are always spouting off about how superior the German engineering is. This is a case where the Yamaha engineers have clearly surpassed them. It is a far more elegant design to provide for that shaft motion at the final drive, where the splines are constantly being bathed in gear lube, than at the front end where you would be relaying on a cursory smear of grease for the lubrication. And that is why Yamaha drive shaft spline failure is virtually unheard of.

I do not know what the deal was with the '84 Venture.

 

[Constant Mesh]

"The idea that the driveshaft yoke does not move on the output shaft as the suspension moves is complete and utter nonsense."

You may be wrong if what you're calling the yoke is the U-joint or cross joint.

The reason you're likely wrong is simple. The centerline of the U-joint and the centerline of the swingarm pivot shaft are the same. As the swingarm moves up and down the distance between the U-joint and the rear drive unit remains constant.

The spring loading at the rear end of the driveshaft ensures that the front end stays motionless inside the U-joint. There's no back and forth movement there.

 

[MCRIDER007]

The idea that the driveshaft yoke does not move on the output shaft as the suspension moves is complete and utter nonsense.

OK, so putting aside all of your personal insults and derogatory rhetoric, let's take a closer look at what you said above.

I do understand that the drive shaft needs to provide the ability to elongate as the suspension articulates. As I have said repeatedly, all of that motion is provided for at the rear end of the shaft, where the driveshaft couples with the final drive.

Here is an excerpt from an excellent post done up by SkooterG way back in 2006: Driveshaft / Gear Coupling / Final Drive 101 (a good read if you want to know how this stuff all fits together)

And here is a photo of the pumpkin, and gear coupling with the driveshaft removed. See the spring in the center of the gear coupling? That is there to keep the driveshaft under tension as the swingarm pivots from normal movement. Any fore and aft movement of the driveshaft caused by the swingarm’s pivoting is done in the gear coupling with aid of the spring, and not at the universal joint. The spring is actually putting some pressure to push the driveshaft out of the gear coupling.

The forward splines do not move (slip) within the U-joint yoke's splines because the drive shaft is being forced all the way forward in that joint by the compression spring pushing from the rear end. All lengthening of the shaft required by wheel movement on the suspension is provided for at the back end of the shaft.

If the back end of the shaft is providing the required lengthening required by wheel movement then the shaft would have to be in the "short" position when the bike is on the centerstand and the spring pushing the back of the shaft would have to be compressed (maybe a half inch or more) to install the front of shaft into the u-joint. This could be accomplished by tightening the four nuts at the punkin but I don't recall having any tension on those nuts. You can easily push the punkin forward to mate the punkin with the swingarm housing and hand tighten the nuts without any tension on the punkin while you are doing it. Its so easy to do by hand that it is easy to forget to do the final tightening after the wheel is installed.

If the movement was designed to be at the back of the shaft (like a C14) then the longer splines would be at the back rather than the front. I have not actually observed the rear splines since I have never taken the punkin apart but the service manual shows the rear splines to be very short in comparison to the front splines.

Finally, that's a pretty heavy duty spring at the back of the shaft. Try pushing the shaft in the next time you have the punkin in your hands. It appears the spring is there to keep everything in alignment and to prevent the back of the shaft from moving.

 

[Allen_C]

The idea that the driveshaft yoke does not move on the output shaft as the suspension moves is complete and utter nonsense.

OK, so putting aside all of your personal insults and derogatory rhetoric, let's take a closer look at what you said above.

I do understand that the drive shaft needs to provide the ability to elongate as the suspension articulates. As I have said repeatedly, all of that motion is provided for at the rear end of the shaft, where the driveshaft couples with the final drive.

Here is an excerpt from an excellent post done up by SkooterG way back in 2006: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7530]Driveshaft / Gear Coupling / Final Drive 101[/url] (a good read if you want to know how this stuff all fits together) :thumbsup:

And here is a photo of the pumpkin, and gear coupling with the driveshaft removed. See the spring in the center of the gear coupling? That is there to keep the driveshaft under tension as the swingarm pivots from normal movement. Any fore and aft movement of the driveshaft caused by the swingarms pivoting is done in the gear coupling with aid of the spring, and not at the universal joint. The spring is actually putting some pressure to push the driveshaft out of the gear coupling.

The forward splines do not move (slip) within the U-joint yoke's splines because the drive shaft is being forced all the way forward in that joint by the compression spring pushing from the rear end. All lengthening of the shaft required by wheel movement on the suspension is provided for at the back end of the shaft.

You may want to research things more closely before spewing your venomous commentary around. Like I said, it only makes you look bad.

Per Skooter's quote, in bold above, the gear coupling in the rear DOES have front to back movement. Doesn't this mean potential heat and wear so proper lubrication is needed, not just for corrosion resistance, as I believe you started previously, but for ease of movement!?

 

[Fred W]

If the back end of the shaft is providing the required lengthening required by wheel movement then the shaft would have to be in the "short" position when the bike is on the centerstand and the spring pushing the back of the shaft would have to be compressed (maybe a half inch or more) to install the front of shaft into the u-joint. This could be accomplished by tightening the four nuts at the punkin but I don't recall having any tension on those nuts. You can easily push the punkin forward to mate the punkin with the swingarm housing and hand tighten the nuts without any tension on the punkin while you are doing it. Its so easy to do by hand that it is easy to forget to do the final tightening after the wheel is installed.

That is not what I recall. ISTR their being some amount of spring force that has to be compressed when snugging up those acorn nuts that hold the final drive assembly to the shaft housing. But the other thing is that the range of shaft motion that needs to be accommodated during wheel travel is pretty small since, as Constant Mesh notes, the pivot point of the swing arm and shaft U-joint coincide so closely. It's not like it is moving 1/2 an inch or anything, more like a few millimeters (if that).

Per Skooter's quote, in bold above, the gear coupling in the rear DOES have front to back movement. Doesn't this mean potential heat and wear so proper lubrication is needed, not just for corrosion resistance but for ease of movement!?

The gear coupling is inside the final drive. The gear coupling is the piece that interfaces the rear spline on the shaft to the pinion gear inside the pumpkin. That rear spline connection (shown in the picture I excerpted) at the rear end of the drive-shaft is the one that is sprung forward, and does allow movement, but is lubricated quite nicely by gear oil.

Check out the rest of Skooter's post that I linked to. It shows the hole that allows the gear oil to get from the main chamber of the pumpkin to the rear shaft splines.

 

[MCRIDER007]

If the back end of the shaft is providing the required lengthening required by wheel movement then the shaft would have to be in the "short" position when the bike is on the centerstand and the spring pushing the back of the shaft would have to be compressed (maybe a half inch or more) to install the front of shaft into the u-joint. This could be accomplished by tightening the four nuts at the punkin but I don't recall having any tension on those nuts. You can easily push the punkin forward to mate the punkin with the swingarm housing and hand tighten the nuts without any tension on the punkin while you are doing it. Its so easy to do by hand that it is easy to forget to do the final tightening after the wheel is installed.

That is not what I recall. ISTR their being some amount of spring force that has to be compressed when snugging up those acorn nuts that hold the final drive assembly to the shaft housing. But the other thing is that the range of shaft motion that needs to be accommodated during wheel travel is pretty small since, as Constant Mesh notes, the pivot point of the swing arm and shaft U-joint coincide so closely. It's not like it is moving 1/2 an inch or anything, more like a few millimeters (if that).

I added a couple of things to my post while you were writing your post but I should add that I just lubed the splines a couple of weeks ago and didn't notice any spring tension when I aligned the punkin with the swing arm housing....and when I took my hands off the punkin it just sat in that position. I also just checked the service manual for the C14 and it has a much different shaft design than the FJR and is clearly designed for the movement to be at the back of the shaft since the spring placement is different and the back splines are at least 3 times as long as the front splines (it actually does not have front splines, the shaft is directly connected to a u-joint and the u-joint has splines that connect to the transmission shaft). I think the shaft movement has to be more than a few millimeters or the splines would be much shorter.

I would like to know the answer because I do not think SkooterG is the final authority on this issue....but I would trust your opinion if you would take the time to remove the punkin, test the spring strength, and critically review the questions/comments that have been raised.