Ethanol Free Gas makes it better

[RichDoyle]

Well I understand the higher you grow that stuff the more potent it is so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills

My understanding is at higher altitude the effective compression is less and thus lower octane fine.

Personally I think a little ethanol is a good thing as it keeps the system clean.

Ethanol does quite the opposite if you do a little homework.... I have read studies that say ethanol reduces gas mileage up to 14%, despite us being led to believe the energy content is only 3% less... the relationship of energy to output wouldn't seem to be linear. Ethanol is very corrosive to fuel systems, and we've all paid the price in newer materials in our systems designed to minimize the harmful effects of ethanol. Small engines in some cases are still vulnerable. I'd say get rid of it as it makes no sense on a lot of levels, but it is so engrained now, that the powers that be who would vote for that will not be in a favourable position to be re-elected.... sad really.

I ran a test last month and could detect little, if any, difference in mileage between ethanol-free and (theoretically) E10. But E10 is MAYBE 10% ethanol and there might not be any in it at all right now. I will rerun this test in the winter when winter blends show up.

 

[MrZappo]

Well I understand the higher you grow that stuff the more potent it is so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills

My understanding is at higher altitude the effective compression is less and thus lower octane fine.

Personally I think a little ethanol is a good thing as it keeps the system clean.

Ethanol does quite the opposite if you do a little homework.... I have read studies that say ethanol reduces gas mileage up to 14%, despite us being led to believe the energy content is only 3% less... the relationship of energy to output wouldn't seem to be linear. Ethanol is very corrosive to fuel systems, and we've all paid the price in newer materials in our systems designed to minimize the harmful effects of ethanol. Small engines in some cases are still vulnerable. I'd say get rid of it as it makes no sense on a lot of levels, but it is so engrained now, that the powers that be who would vote for that will not be in a favourable position to be re-elected.... sad really.

I ran a test last month and could detect little, if any, difference in mileage between ethanol-free and (theoretically) E10. But E10 is MAYBE 10% ethanol and there might not be any in it at all right now. I will rerun this test in the winter when winter blends show up.

There isn't (much) difference between ethanol free and E10 from a mileage standpoint ... There IS a massive difference between E10 and E85 however ... About 15% from what I have seen ...

So, if it is 15% cheaper (usually about 10% cheaper around me) and it gets 15% less mileage, what is the point ? Just makes you fill up more often ...

 

[Panman]

I use ethanol free gas in all of my small engines because it does not clog up the carburetors like dried corn does if it sits for a while. It seems that anything with fuel injection is a lot more tolerant of the corn. I have to go out of my way to get it, but it's worth it not to have to clean the carburetor in my log splitter or lawn mower.
The only exception is my Stihl chain saw. The manual for that specifically says not to use ethanol free gas because the additives that are used in place of ethanol may react with the alloy in the saw. Sounds hokey to me, but I do try to follow that rule so I don't have trouble with the saw.

I know chainsaws are off topic but.............

The guys that I know work chainsaws tell me that the Ethanol separates the mix, people that use it equals stuck motors.

 

[TomInPA]

Well I understand the higher you grow that stuff the more potent it is so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills

Reread Twigg's post above. This ^^^ simply reflects a lack of understanding of octane and the effects of altitude. Octane is a combustion inhibitor, not a promoter. In the presence of less oxygen pressure, lower octane (faster burn) means better power in a motor with relatively low compression. It is a common misconception that octane means more power/Btu/faster burn, when actually the opposite is true. For your consideration, ethanol in gasoline increases the octane rating.

 

[RichDoyle]

I ran a test last month and could detect little, if any, difference in mileage between ethanol-free and (theoretically) E10. But E10 is MAYBE 10% ethanol and there might not be any in it at all right now. I will rerun this test in the winter when winter blends show up.

There isn't (much) difference between ethanol free and E10 from a mileage standpoint ... There IS a massive difference between E10 and E85 however ... About 15% from what I have seen ...

So, if it is 15% cheaper (usually about 10% cheaper around me) and it gets 15% less mileage, what is the point ? Just makes you fill up more often ...

Yeah, I'd expect this. Maybe even worse, really.

 

[redneckj]

Here is a good link to find the stations that dont have corn on their fuel.

https://pure-gas.org/

If you want to do a little testing on your fuel, here is another link

https://www.amazon.com/Mallory-9-79816-Fuel-Tester/dp/B004B7WCO0/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1407194805&sr=1-2&keywords=ethanol+fuel+tester

 

[MrZappo]

Here is a good link to find the stations that dont have corn on their fuel.
https://pure-gas.org/

If you want to do a little testing on your fuel, here is another link

https://www.amazon.com/Mallory-9-79816-Fuel-Tester/dp/B004B7WCO0/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1407194805&sr=1-2&keywords=ethanol+fuel+tester

I have looked at that site many times with baited breasts hoping to find some ethanol free near my home in Chicagoistan ... Nope ..

The closest station is about a tank of gas away ... I can go buy some but it will be gone when I get home ...

 

[gixxerjasen]

Yea, my closest one is 34 miles from my small suburb of Dallas. Not a tank of gas, but still.

 

[rockdude]

Here is a good link to find the stations that dont have corn on their fuel.
https://pure-gas.org/

If you want to do a little testing on your fuel, here is another link

https://www.amazon.com/Mallory-9-79816-Fuel-Tester/dp/B004B7WCO0/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1407194805&sr=1-2&keywords=ethanol+fuel+tester

The https://pure-gas.org/ finder app is what I use .. comes in handy. Luckily, I have may stations around me that have corn free gas. Most are premium, but on a block way has regular corn free.

 

[Top_Speed1]

I have a few toyz that require 93 Octane (super-charged jet-skiis) but my bikes do not. The FJR seems to run just fine on 87, my 6 cyl Beemer also runs fine on the 87 but I do try to put in the 89 as recommended.

I will however put in Ethanol free Hi-Test (cuz in this area it's about the only way I can get ethanol free) on the last couple of fill-ups in the fall prior to winter storage.

 

[Ceruleanryder]

A fish rises to the bait........ and this once I will take the OP on good faith.......
Hmmm, higher octane is only intended to make the fuel harder to spontaneously ignite under heat and pressure to prevent detonation. Your mileage may actually go down with higher octane fuel unless the engine specifically requires it. If your FJR did not knock on 87 octane then you don't need higher octane and won't gain any benefits from it. The way your FJR runs is independent of octane if it's not knocking. You may see some seasonal differences due to different blends but it is octane independent. Earth is kind of a broad area to be able to tell if you live someplace with significant seasonal changes.

Your bike is supposed to run better with a PCV. From all accounts I have read from Gen I and Gen II people moving to a Gen III, the Gen III runs good enough that it doesn't need any help.

How many miles on that '14? It took my Gen I almost 10k miles to break in and run at its best and coolest. I noticed a steady improvement in smoothness and mileage over the first 6k miles.

IonBeam I've seen your octane explanation on other threads and it got me thinking about a related fjr issue. I don't mean to hijack this thread but the OP comments about his bike "running better" on higher octane fuel. Before Ion educated me I also expected higher octane meant automatically better performance. But....

I'm new to the fjr and the lean stumble is buggin me. I tried high octane fuel and it seemed to get a little worse. So does it make sense that an "ignition inhibitor" like octane would aggravate a lean condition? Lean means not enough fuel in the air and thus poor ignition or slow flame front - I'm guessing on this part. If that's the case then high octane could reasonably make the "stumble" worse.

Let me know if I've wandered off the reservation again. In search of empirical evidence I am going to try some 85 next fill up and see if the seat of the pants meter can measure an improvement.

 

[Twigg]

You are in the right place.

Lower octane fuels ignite more easily, so they ignite earlier and burn faster. In higher compression engines this can be a problem because they can ignite before the crank reaches the correct position, pressure being one of the factors in the ignition point. This produces the characteristic "knocking" or "pinking". It is pre-detonation and it is harmful as well as power-sapping.

So they add chemicals that delay the ignition. They raise the octane of the gas so that it detonates at the correct time, but they also have less energy per gallon ... Not much less.

In a lean running motor, the engine runs hotter by default, and that can cause pre-ignition if the octane rating is too low, because heat is one of the components that determines exactly when the gas will ignite.

Heat, pressure, spark timing, mixture ratio, octane rating ... the factors that influence the detonation point.

 

[ionbeam]

^^^^^

If it's not pinging or knocking then 85 octane is fine and you don't need more. Living in (nebulous) Colorado you may be at altitude and can run 85 octane, not knock and get better gas mileage. With some small loss in power, but that comes with altitude.

 

[FJRat]

A fish rises to the bait........ and this once I will take the OP on good faith.......
Hmmm, higher octane is only intended to make the fuel harder to spontaneously ignite under heat and pressure to prevent detonation. Your mileage may actually go down with higher octane fuel unless the engine specifically requires it. If your FJR did not knock on 87 octane then you don't need higher octane and won't gain any benefits from it. The way your FJR runs is independent of octane if it's not knocking. You may see some seasonal differences due to different blends but it is octane independent. Earth is kind of a broad area to be able to tell if you live someplace with significant seasonal changes.

Your bike is supposed to run better with a PCV. From all accounts I have read from Gen I and Gen II people moving to a Gen III, the Gen III runs good enough that it doesn't need any help.

How many miles on that '14? It took my Gen I almost 10k miles to break in and run at its best and coolest. I noticed a steady improvement in smoothness and mileage over the first 6k miles

Icon...thanks for the info

* Yes my bike seems to be smoothing out over the first 6k

* While I don't have empirical evidence, I would bet my pelotas that my 14 is running more efficiently on a PCV with a stock map and the PAIR removed

* I am up with the dynamics of octane. But according to other stuff I read, your bike may be knocking or popping but the super-dupper muffler adumbrates those sounds. I can't quite remember where, but it says there is a mechanism for avoiding knocking.

Also from previous info: I understand the FJR is almost a high compression engine (correct me if I am wrong). It is suppose to be on the high end of low compression status. For that reason, I suspected that maybe, maybe, 89 octane may be more suitable for the 2014 red baron.

Appreciate you taking the bait...and your info. I just about given up posting on FJR forums due to the abundance of obstinate creatures looking for a spot to take an emotional repression sheett

 

[Twigg]

10:1 to 11:1 is considered the break point. It will depend a bit on altitude.

My '05 is stock (no PC). It runs just fine on 85 Octane at altitude, and 87 Octane on the flatlands. AFAIK, there is no real mechanism to change the ignition timing without a PC or similar, but it shouldn't be knocking anyway.

That said, gas can vary especially if it is bought at lesser used gas stations. If Yamaha say that 87 Regular is sufficient, then it should not need 91 Premium.

If it seems to need it, then have the dealer run diagnostics, esp. on a '14, it's under warranty.

 

[ionbeam]

The PAIR does not affect running, it only affects exhaust popping on decel when cold, and clears up a lot of top engine clutter. The PAIR air injection happens in the exhaust port after the exhaust valve so it has nothing to do with engine operation. When the engine's FI is in the cold compensation mode the exhaust is rich, adding air to the exhaust allows a secondary burn in the exhaust header which you hear as a POP when it ignites.

PC V: Adding fuel will always make an engine feel smoother, up to an extreme point. Adding fuel causes a lean engine to run closer to the stoichiometric point which it likes. When even more fuel is added beyond the stoichiometric point it starts to cause the engine to bog. What you feel is the too crisp edge being taken off the throttle response due to an over rich mix. The richer the mix the smoother the throttle feels up to a richness point where throttle response starts to suffer. Rich engines are smooth. Gas mileage suffers and the environmental zealots will hate you but you will have a smooth engine

There is nothing in the FJR to attenuate the sound of knocking. The FJR does not have knock sensors so the ECU cannot compensate for knocking. Knocking occurs in the cylinder causing the engine to vibrate like it was hit by a BIG hammer, there is nothing that can be done to the exhaust system to quiet knocking.

There is not a linear relationship between compression and octane requirement. Cylinder head design, spark plug type, spark timing, quench zone, port velocity, combustion chamber cooling and a bunch of other things can let a high compression engine run on lower octane.

 

[Ceruleanryder]

Thanks Twigg and Ion - I appreciate the reply - and i get the pre-ignition bit. since i would never want to be nebulous - am in Sedalia Colorado where my driveway is about 6041.87 feet.

im not having a pinging problem or worried about mileage or power. Im pretty oblivious to mileage since my cage gets about 12 and any motorcycle gets stunning mileage by comparison. Im coming from a 650 Vstrom so the power on the FJR is also stunning at t his point.

I was wondering about the possibility of high octane contributing to lean stumble. Not sure i ken why an engine runs hot on a lean mixture either but like my wife (third) tells me i dont need to understand. Would the physics/chemistry of internal combustion suggest more lean stumble on higher octane fuel?

Cheers

 

[Ignacio]

* I am up with the dynamics of octane.

so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills

I think the second quote contradicts the first quote fairly squarely. One of the most basic principals of octane is about resistance to detonation when compressed at the same time one of the biggest myths about octane is about how fast it burns. (the other myth seems to be about "temperature" or "coolness" of combustion).

A fair amount of what I've seen you share in this thread (and others) is incomplete, inaccurate, and/or jibberish.

Also from previous info: I understand the FJR is almost a high compression engine (correct me if I am wrong). It is suppose to be on the high end of low compression status. For that reason, I suspected that maybe, maybe, 89 octane may be more suitable for the 2014 red baron

I think you're using false logic here.The FJR runs just fine on 87 octane...even at sea level....even below sea level actually if you go to Death Valley....even if it has 10% ethanol or not.

While I suppose it's possible for a single tank of substandard fuel or using fuel constantly from a sketchy supplier--if your FJR is having detonation issues, take it to the dealer since its still under warranty!

due to the abundance of obstinate creatures looking for a spot to take an emotional repression sheett

muffler adumbrates those sounds.

This seems like more jibberish to me. You're getting a lot of great, well-reasoned, reasonable advice and seemingly choosing to ignore much of it. Your choice certainly, but it just seems goofy to me.

 

[FJRat]

First of all, I did not say this

FJRat said:

so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills


Second, this is case in point as to posting ...
YOUR POST: This seems like more jibberish to me. You're getting a lot of great, well-reasoned, reasonable advice and seemingly choosing to ignore much of it. Your choice certainly, but it just seems goofy to me.

...making judgement on other people's post that they are jibberish, and that one is choosing to ignore the reasonable advice.
I have to read through this nonsense catharsis that contributes nothing to the conversation other than put down other people....seems like there is a flock of you...how long did it take you to amass all those quotes in other to attempt to make a point that I am an idiot because I am posting inquiries about stuff I don't know about?...don't you have something better to do with your time?

 

[Ignacio]

First of all, I did not say this

FJRat said:

so at 85 octane it ought to burn more quickly than the stuff below the hills

Uh, yeah, you did. A link to your August 3, 6:04 p.m. post for your memory-jogging convenience. It was also quoted and responded to at least two other times.