Ethanol Gas -Follow Up with API

[03HiYoSilver]

Just in case you want to know, this is a follow up with our local API (American Petroleum Institue) representative from this 2008 link discussion:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=103595&st=0&p=411264entry411264

I just got off the phone with him and he sent me this email with their API Tech. Answers to how to work with Ethanol in Fuels:

"Here is an answer provided by one of our fuel experts. Hope it helps.

 

At a ten percent or lower ethanol concentration, there is no need to additize if the fuel is stored properly and will be used within one year.

 

We can't recommend any single brand, but there are specific products that are intended for use in boats or other non-road engines that are advertised to specifically address problems caused by ethanol. There are other products that are intended to extend storage life.

 

He should choose the product (if any) that is advertised to address the specific issue at hand."

I was rather surprised on the length of Ethanol Life time frames, for what I have read it has been as short as 2 Weeks shelf life before the degradation begins.

Hope this helps...

 

[Crash Cash]

So what is "degradation"? Separation of the gas & ethanol? In which case, is there anything we can do to speed that up? Or is it "turns to unpumpable gook"? Can I let a can of the stuff sit on the shelf and later skim out the ethanol? I wonder if you can distill it, but boiling gasoline doesn't sound like my kind of fun.

And what's the progress on the FL/CA lawsuits? Any good news there?

 

[Niehart]

And if you have a Duc with a platic gas tank...

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Crash,

Here is some Info I posted found from another WebSite,

But Not API:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=135094&st=0

Additionally, ethanol is a very effective solvent, and has a tendency to dissolve old coatings of varnish and dirt in existing fuel systems. This can lead to plugged fuel filters, and other mechanical problems.

The added amounts of particles associated with ethanol fuel may warrant upgrading filter systems. Many engineers are now recommending that boats using ethanol fuel need to use 10 micron filters. Pre-E-10 systems will likely be using 28 micron filters. Manufacturers such as Yamaha have been quick to respond to ethanol fuel use by introducing replacement 10 micron filters.

The corrosive nature of ethanol can affect fuel lines and other components, causing them to crack and fail. Many older boats will require replacement of all fuel hoses and possibly other system components.

While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.

This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity.

Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

https://www.daybreakf...hanol-fuel.html

Not sure about the Fl/CA Lawsuits. IF you are interested, here is API Washington # 202-682-2574. Many States are doing different things with this issue and it is not State Universal.

 

[nwrider1]

FWIW I store bikes in both Idaho over the winter and in Arizona over the summer months. In Idaho I fill the tank and ad 1oz/2 gal of Stabil -- the regular reddish stuff. In Arizona I double dose the fuel with regular Stabil. I store both carbed and FI bikes and have had no problems with either. My bikes have always started immediately and have run like they did before I stored them.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

It would then appear everybody should swear off Seafoam (basically naptha and alcohol). I will have to look into other stabilizers. Anyone know which are best?

 

[Geezer]

I store motorcycles and small engines for 4 to 5 months each winter. Both fuel injected and carb. I do not stabilize the fuel, but I do add a few ounces of 2 cycle mix to a tank of gas and run it through the FI or carburetors to lubricate and protect. They always start up in the spring, but I do notice a little less power until I fill up with fresh fuel. On the FJR I keep a battery tender on and I switch the key on and run the fuel pump at least once a week.

Before E10 I didn't do anything to winterize the fuel.

 

[Lowcountry Joe]

Don't store today's gasoline in anything for more than 2 to 4 weeks tops. It goes bad fast. If you don't believe this, just put some fresh gas in a quart jar, set it up on the shelf, and look at it after about two weeks. Seek out the stations that have non-ethanol mixtures. Yea, I know, how can you prove there is no ethanol in their mixture? I dunno. But what options is there? Most of the modern engines are using seal components that will withstand the E10 mixture, but if you use the E15 you could be at risk. Bad shit.

 

[madmike2]

Don't store today's gasoline in anything for more than 2 to 4 weeks tops. It goes bad fast. If you don't believe this, just put some fresh gas in a quart jar, set it up on the shelf, and look at it after about two weeks. Seek out the stations that have non-ethanol mixtures. Yea, I know, how can you prove there is no ethanol in their mixture? I dunno. But what options is there? Most of the modern engines are using seal components that will withstand the E10 mixture, but if you use the E15 you could be at risk. Bad shit.

Lucky you, we on the left coast don't have that option. Everything here is oxygenated so non-ethanol isn't available. Even diesel that is sold for on-road use is different thanthat sold for farm-only (or logging) use.

Soon coming to a state near you.

 

[PhilJet09]

Don't store today's gasoline in anything for more than 2 to 4 weeks tops. It goes bad fast. If you don't believe this, just put some fresh gas in a quart jar, set it up on the shelf, and look at it after about two weeks. Seek out the stations that have non-ethanol mixtures. Yea, I know, how can you prove there is no ethanol in their mixture? I dunno. But what options is there? Most of the modern engines are using seal components that will withstand the E10 mixture, but if you use the E15 you could be at risk. Bad shit.

Lucky you, we on the left coast don't have that option. Everything here is oxygenated so non-ethanol isn't available. Even diesel that is sold for on-road use is different thanthat sold for farm-only (or logging) use.

Soon coming to a state near you.

All of the fuel around here has ethanol in it. A few years ago you could tell which stations had it, there was a sticker on the pump...not anymore. They all have ethanol now.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Samples of Ethanol Gas Damage & Phase Separation:

https://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=431864#top

 

[fattymoon]

My 2008 FJR began running badly with the first tankful of 10 percent ethanol gas. I tried octane boosters and fuel system cleaners to no avail. A friend who drives a school bus told to try Marine formula Sta-Bil, and, I must say, there is considerable improvement. It only stumbles a bit the first couple minutes of riding (after getting to two bars) and then things smooth out nicely. Not perfect, mind you, but good enough to keep me happy till they stop putting ethanol in the gas pumps. I'm using 1/2 oz to a tankful of gas.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I first used ethanol-laced gasoline in an electronic/computer-controlled fuel injected motorcycle in 1982 -- and have regularly/always (probably? ~ I don't pay attention, anymore) since -- with absolutely no (zero) fueling problems (AFAIK); and, I use no (zero) additives.

There are world markets where alchohol (ethanol) is used exclusively/totally as an I.C. engine fuel.

As always: YMMV... :huh:

Edit: 65K FJR miles -- about 1,500 gal. of E-10 used...

 

[GPRIDER]

I thought I heard the other day that some of our fearless leaders were trying to get the ethenol bumped up to 20%. Anybody else hear this or was I just dreaming?

GP

 

[03HiYoSilver]

I thought I heard the other day that some of our fearless leaders were trying to get the ethenol bumped up to 20%. Anybody else hear this or was I just dreaming?

GP,

When I talked to my local API representative, I believe he said there is a push/legislation to get the Ehtanol Level up to 15%. They (API) are fighting this for us on their end.

 

[Crash Cash]

I thought I heard the other day that some of our fearless leaders were trying to get the ethenol bumped up to 20%. Anybody else hear this or was I just dreaming?

Yup, the EPA proposed 15% "for 2010+ newer cars & trucks" and the bike m'fgrs said "HELL no!" - the EPA said "but bikes will have a choice to use 10%" and the MIC said "stations won't pony up for an expensive 2nd set of tanks & pumps, and the states have a history of mandating max ethanol. We're not paying the warranty claims, FRO." - so right now it's at a stalemate.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Here are the links and driving force with these issues:

https://domesticfuel.com/2011/03/11/sen-klobuchar-introduces-ethanol-legislation/

https://www.agriculture.com/news/policy/harkin-wries-about-ethol-tax-credit_4-ar15726

 

[Zorlac]

"Harkin said, “and we’ll lose the tax credit and we won’t have anything to replace it with. That’s my big worry”

If ethanol was economically viable & profitable, why would they even need a tax credit? :glare:

They want to sell me fuel that contains less energy per gallon at the same price, nice. :angry:

 

[GPRIDER]

"Harkin said, “and we’ll lose the tax credit and we won’t have anything to replace it with. That’s my big worry”

If ethanol was economically viable & profitable, why would they even need a tax credit? :glare:

They want to sell me fuel that contains less energy per gallon at the same price, nice. :angry:

I'm with you Zorlac. This sucks. Is it really saving the amount of gasoline we use if we have to use more because our vehicles get worse milage with this stuff. Hope they don't get the ethanol bumped up.

GP