beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Thank you johnny80s, La Pinguina Plata and I are proud of you! The photo certainly answers my question!Don here is your pic of Monkeyman trying to get his question answered.
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FJR Computer swap for Seq EFI?
- Thread starter monkeyman
- Start date
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Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Don here is your pick of Monkeyman trying to get his question answered.
Geez Johnnie.. You was a cute kid. What happened?
dcarver
Well-known member
I routinely return 28-32 mpg when riding locally.
I routinely return 45+ when touring and have even seen 52.
I wonder what the difference is?
I carry more stuff when touring hence weight is higher yet so is fuel mileage?
I'm less aerodynamic when touring yet fuel mileage is higher?
It must be that the air becomes less dense as one travels east?
I routinely return 45+ when touring and have even seen 52.
I wonder what the difference is?
I carry more stuff when touring hence weight is higher yet so is fuel mileage?
I'm less aerodynamic when touring yet fuel mileage is higher?
It must be that the air becomes less dense as one travels east?
wheatonFJR
...
His Navy buddies put up with it, because they made great love handles for the Chief.
monkeyman
Active member
1) Yes - My initial question was answered: The general consensus is that no one who's answered is aware of an aftermarket ECU supporting sequential firing and the injectors which go with it specific to the FJR.
2) The second issue - Is my fuel economy normal for the model and year? Was answered in multiple ways. Some claiming bullsh*t, others agreeing with me, still others who just needed a bump and other by claiming at a rally packed with other bikes they had room and space for a combine velocity of 250mph while getting 23 and change mpg. I'm still not sure why the velocity of the second bike was important but realy, who cares?
3) The third issue - Diagnostics specific to the O2 Sensor - ionbeam did provide an answer for normal results but he did not know I had a multimeter which could keep up with the frequency produced, and that my oscilloscope could not keep up. Yes I have both and yes they can (the multimeter will not do megahertz but I assume the actual frequency is well below this). That said the sine (ok, it's not strictly a sine wave) wave patterns put up by joebiodiesel and the voltage provided by ionbeam did verify that it is the resistance which changes in the oxygen sensor and with that a change in voltage. <<Because v=iR where v is voltage, i is current and R is resistance. So for v to change R must change.
4) Final issue (as things stand now but who knows what's commin next, huh?) - What is the manner by which ECU problems or sensor problems recorded by the ECU are ascertained (ignoring the obvious steps to view them on the dash of the bike)? ionbeam answered that - Standard devices don't work and there are no shop specific devices as there are for the R1 or like I had for my GSX-R.
David
2) The second issue - Is my fuel economy normal for the model and year? Was answered in multiple ways. Some claiming bullsh*t, others agreeing with me, still others who just needed a bump and other by claiming at a rally packed with other bikes they had room and space for a combine velocity of 250mph while getting 23 and change mpg. I'm still not sure why the velocity of the second bike was important but realy, who cares?
3) The third issue - Diagnostics specific to the O2 Sensor - ionbeam did provide an answer for normal results but he did not know I had a multimeter which could keep up with the frequency produced, and that my oscilloscope could not keep up. Yes I have both and yes they can (the multimeter will not do megahertz but I assume the actual frequency is well below this). That said the sine (ok, it's not strictly a sine wave) wave patterns put up by joebiodiesel and the voltage provided by ionbeam did verify that it is the resistance which changes in the oxygen sensor and with that a change in voltage. <<Because v=iR where v is voltage, i is current and R is resistance. So for v to change R must change.
4) Final issue (as things stand now but who knows what's commin next, huh?) - What is the manner by which ECU problems or sensor problems recorded by the ECU are ascertained (ignoring the obvious steps to view them on the dash of the bike)? ionbeam answered that - Standard devices don't work and there are no shop specific devices as there are for the R1 or like I had for my GSX-R.
David
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joebiodiesel
I wish I could think of something witty to put her
Hi David,
The normal frequency of O2s is probably 3-5Hz. Pretty slow.
The resistance of the O2s don't change. At around 700F the O2s become little batteries capable of producing 1V in the absence of oxygen(rich), and 0V in the presence of oxygen(lean).
To check them with your oscilloscope you will want to choose a pretty slow sweep speed(maybe sweeping the width of the screen in 4 or 5 seconds). At operating temps they should regularly drop below 100mV and rise to 900mV. You may have to hold the engine at high idle to keep the O2s hot for this test.
To check them closely, perform a couple of throttle snaps. Measure the rise time from lean to rich. They should rise at least 800mV in under 100mS, and drop back 800mV in under 300mS.
If the O2s pass this test it is unlikely that they are sluggish or biased.
Joe
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Jesus H. Christ...Monkeyman, I donno if you know this, but you bought a motorcycle. You should go out and ride it instead of ******* with oscilloscopes and megahertz. Barring that, get a ******* girlfriend.
Now...For some answers. You can believe them or not, but know this...I will neither ******** you nor lie to you, and I will tell you exactly what I think. Over the internet or face to face.
So...As to question #1: I can't believe no one has yet suggested you get a Power Commander V (5) with the Auto-Tune feature. You will be able to adjust your fuel ratio-oxygen ratio which is what you were looking to do in the first place...No? For around $300 all your fuel problems may be solved. Maybe not.
2: If your bike only has 500 miles, or less than a couple thousand, that will explain why your fuel economy is all ****** up. These things run tight and it takes a bit for them to break in. At around 20k, my bike felt different than it did initially. I ride pretty fast and hardly ever get less than 38mpg. That's with 80mph plus on the freeway, and some jaunts above triple digits. I believe my most frequent average is 42mpg on 87 octane. My bike has never seen premium or plus fuel, and as long as I own it, it never will.
3 and 4: As said initially in this response, find a girl who will touch your frenum with her tongue. That should stop some of this sillyness. Jeebus.
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
What he MEANT to say was.......
Oh fook it, HRZilla hit the nail on the head. :rofl:
Oh fook it, HRZilla hit the nail on the head. :rofl:
johnny80s
Turtle Gears
Nicely said HRZ. This was the stupidest thread in a long time. The only one dumber that I can remember was started by a chick named Peggy who thought her FJR sucked.
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Frenum? What the ****? :dribble:
When did we start using proper words around here? There are going to be several who will needlessly waste time looking up **** like that if this trend continues.. :blink:
Knock that **** off! :glare:
:****:
kolonial72
Well-known member
You might say it's the stupidest thread in a long time, but parts of it amused the **** outta me. Makes me think I need to spend less time reading this crap, and more time out riding! But it was funny.
Oh, and I'm glad Monkey got his football ******, err...I mean, his question answered.
Hmmmm?!
And should she be checking for food particals with her tongue?
<<< caution: photo is not lunch-safe..... - Admins >>>
https://img.tfd.com/mosby/thumbs/500087-fx20.jpg
:lol:
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johnny80s
Turtle Gears
So much for lunch.
Can't believe I haven't weighed in yet here. Since this is already NEPRT, I guess it's safe now...
First off, as to the OP's initial question: Where can one buy an aftermarket sequential FI controller. That seems to be well and fully answered. You can't. With good reason. You already have one. The OEM Yamaha ECU IS already a sequential fuel injection controller. Being sequential is not the answer to your quest. I think what you are asking for is a programmable sequential FI controller, so that you could make some adjustments to the fueling. The OEM ECU can be programmed (to a very limited extent) by using the Barbarian jumper mod and making CO adjustments per those procedures.
Will that improve your fuel mileage? Not much.
Will unplugging your O2 sensor put the bike's ECU in "limp home" mode? Well, yes and no.
The FI program used on these bikes is considerably simpler, and less intrusive, and therefore has less effect on the overall performance, as compared to OBDII automotive ECUs. On these bikes the FI program only goes into closed loop mode in very limited circumstances. Essentially these are (only after being fully warmed up) when at idle or at a very, very (almost artificially) steady throttle and load. The rest of the time the engine already runs "open loop" which you probably know means that it runs off of the base fuel map stored in ECU's eprom. However, unlike automotive ECUs in "Limp Home" mode, the base map on the bike is pretty darned close to what you need for optimum ratio (since it is being run the majority of the time), and is still being influenced by all of the other sensors in the system (minus the O2) and so does not really suffer as much as the automotive equivalent. IOW, it doesn't really limp that much.
The sole design goal of the motorcycle engineers in the adding of O2 sensor feedback was to get the bikes to pass the federal emissions testing criteria, and not the actual improvement of any other parameters, including fuel mileage. This is evident by how poor the drive-ability of these bikes can be without any aftermarket tweaking of the fueling. Do a search on "lean surge". In doing so they have programmed the F/A ratio to be too lean, particularly in the two areas they expected to have to pass testing (idle and steady cruise).
O2 sensor signals will only oscillate as shown earlier when the FI system is in closed loop mode. What you are observing is the O2 signal (as previously described all O2 sensors generate from 0 to 1V depending on oxygen exposure) as the ECU attempts to correct for it. It is constantly seeking due in part top the hysteresis of the sensors. They can only sense what was injected earlier. There has been little attempt to design in filtering functions to dampen the hysteresis in order to keep the system as responsive as possible. Gott'a pass those tests, right?
What is a reasonable fuel mileage expectation for a 1st gen FJR in good condition? That seems to vary as much by the rider's habits as the bike. How it is used. Where it is ridden. I'm sure you've already got that picture. My '05 with >45k miles on it gets a consistent 42-45 mpg when I'm in 2-up Touring guy mode, or 1-up Sport Touring guy mode. But I can quite easily knock it down into the mid '30's when in Sporty Guy Wannabe mode like when having big fun down south at the EOM's. All of the above is with the O2 sensor fully disconnected an inoperable, and a PCIII set up to add gobs of fuel for better performance and ride-ability.
I have also noticed a big variation in fuel mileage based on the seasonal fuel mixture variation we are blessed with up here in New England. This was highlighted by being somewhat alarmed in the fall each year that I am no longer able to get my routine 240 - 250 miles out of a (5.5 - 6 gallon) tank before hitting the gas station seeking panic.
I think in summary, if someone is looking for a fuel efficient conveyance, the FJR is not a very good choice. Why should it be? It accelerates and corners like a half million dollar Ferrari. A better choice for frugal commuting would be a nice 2 cylinder 650cc bike. But if you need to get your adrenaline up during that commute, or want to ride cross country in comfort and style, then strafe a few corners when you get there, well the FJR is your bike.
Please do take ionbeam's advice and come out and play with us New England FJR kids (some call us the NERDS) in a few weeks once the sun comes out and the riding gets good. We'll make you forget all about mpg's, fuel injection, heat problems, etc. etc. :lol:
First off, as to the OP's initial question: Where can one buy an aftermarket sequential FI controller. That seems to be well and fully answered. You can't. With good reason. You already have one. The OEM Yamaha ECU IS already a sequential fuel injection controller. Being sequential is not the answer to your quest. I think what you are asking for is a programmable sequential FI controller, so that you could make some adjustments to the fueling. The OEM ECU can be programmed (to a very limited extent) by using the Barbarian jumper mod and making CO adjustments per those procedures.
Will that improve your fuel mileage? Not much.
Will unplugging your O2 sensor put the bike's ECU in "limp home" mode? Well, yes and no.
The FI program used on these bikes is considerably simpler, and less intrusive, and therefore has less effect on the overall performance, as compared to OBDII automotive ECUs. On these bikes the FI program only goes into closed loop mode in very limited circumstances. Essentially these are (only after being fully warmed up) when at idle or at a very, very (almost artificially) steady throttle and load. The rest of the time the engine already runs "open loop" which you probably know means that it runs off of the base fuel map stored in ECU's eprom. However, unlike automotive ECUs in "Limp Home" mode, the base map on the bike is pretty darned close to what you need for optimum ratio (since it is being run the majority of the time), and is still being influenced by all of the other sensors in the system (minus the O2) and so does not really suffer as much as the automotive equivalent. IOW, it doesn't really limp that much.
The sole design goal of the motorcycle engineers in the adding of O2 sensor feedback was to get the bikes to pass the federal emissions testing criteria, and not the actual improvement of any other parameters, including fuel mileage. This is evident by how poor the drive-ability of these bikes can be without any aftermarket tweaking of the fueling. Do a search on "lean surge". In doing so they have programmed the F/A ratio to be too lean, particularly in the two areas they expected to have to pass testing (idle and steady cruise).
O2 sensor signals will only oscillate as shown earlier when the FI system is in closed loop mode. What you are observing is the O2 signal (as previously described all O2 sensors generate from 0 to 1V depending on oxygen exposure) as the ECU attempts to correct for it. It is constantly seeking due in part top the hysteresis of the sensors. They can only sense what was injected earlier. There has been little attempt to design in filtering functions to dampen the hysteresis in order to keep the system as responsive as possible. Gott'a pass those tests, right?
What is a reasonable fuel mileage expectation for a 1st gen FJR in good condition? That seems to vary as much by the rider's habits as the bike. How it is used. Where it is ridden. I'm sure you've already got that picture. My '05 with >45k miles on it gets a consistent 42-45 mpg when I'm in 2-up Touring guy mode, or 1-up Sport Touring guy mode. But I can quite easily knock it down into the mid '30's when in Sporty Guy Wannabe mode like when having big fun down south at the EOM's. All of the above is with the O2 sensor fully disconnected an inoperable, and a PCIII set up to add gobs of fuel for better performance and ride-ability.
I have also noticed a big variation in fuel mileage based on the seasonal fuel mixture variation we are blessed with up here in New England. This was highlighted by being somewhat alarmed in the fall each year that I am no longer able to get my routine 240 - 250 miles out of a (5.5 - 6 gallon) tank before hitting the gas station seeking panic.
I think in summary, if someone is looking for a fuel efficient conveyance, the FJR is not a very good choice. Why should it be? It accelerates and corners like a half million dollar Ferrari. A better choice for frugal commuting would be a nice 2 cylinder 650cc bike. But if you need to get your adrenaline up during that commute, or want to ride cross country in comfort and style, then strafe a few corners when you get there, well the FJR is your bike.
Please do take ionbeam's advice and come out and play with us New England FJR kids (some call us the NERDS) in a few weeks once the sun comes out and the riding gets good. We'll make you forget all about mpg's, fuel injection, heat problems, etc. etc. :lol:
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RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
Effing BRILLIANT, Fred.
Ionbeam has some company in the "Wicked Smart" section of the forum
Good on ya!
Ionbeam has some company in the "Wicked Smart" section of the forum
Good on ya!
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beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
That explains the hay stuck in yer butt!
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
An here to think I thought you an me could make wonderful butt babies together... :blink:
Not so much anymore :lol:
:****:
Oh damn! We hijacked this thing again..
200cs
Well-known member
I have read this entire post and find it interesting to say the least. I would try the power commander and use a datalogging Wide Band O2 Sensor system that would allow you to measure the actual output at different areas. It would be easy to see with a wideband if the ECU is in closed loop and the readings are all over the place instead of 14.7, pointing to a failed narrow band (stock)O2 sensor. Would also give you a good idea of how rich / lean the engine is when in open loop (warm up or wide open throttle performance)running on tables. It is too bad there is not a Hondata or AEM type program for bikes.
I went thru all of this several years ago when I turbocharged an Acura Integra Type-R and tuned it with Uberdata. It took a while, but I had that car running perfectly at any throttle position regardless of engine temp or outside air temp. I would love to have that kind of control of this ECU. Good Luck.....
