FJR engineers embarrassed by Concours 14

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I like my FJR but I also must agree the vibration is more than I expected. I have an 03 ZRX1200R and that engine is smoother than the FJR and it has better power characteristics.

I think Yamaha made a good bike with the FJR. I think it's maybe one model iteration away from being truly great. "great" would include the following:

1. no vibration

2. bettter ergo's on the grips/seat/pegs (maybe gen II's are already there, I have an 'O5)

3. more power with seamless fuel injection (no power commander needed)

4. lighter (40 or 50 pounds would be noticable)

5. optional full suite of music/comm electronics

all that said for a sport tourer IMHO the FJR is the best option currently available.

 
Appreciate the input oldryder, but some would consider it bad forum manners to resurrect a year-old thread to do it! ;)

 
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Yes :D
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I used to have one of these... a white '92 5 speed. Talk about fun. That car would scream! Loved it 'til it started 100 dollaring me to death. Had to go butttbye!

As far as friend, Constant Mesh. Are you still here or did you get you your new Kawi, yet? I have no vibe problems with my bike. I do know & like to know that I am riding it, though.

Edited to add: oopsy, didn't realize this was such an old thread.

 
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Folks..........................

Please, use a little self-restraint and let this thread die the death it deserves......................

 
that's right.... for god's sake, there's a hurricane comin! :ph34r:

 
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I kind of hesitate to jump into the fray, but I keep hearing about engine vibration and buzzy bars on the FJR. I can't compare it to the Connie 14, but my other bike is a GL1800 Gold Wing, and I've found myself thinking many times as I'm humming along at 70+ just how smooth the FJR is. Sure the Wing is smoother and rides softer, but the FJR is a VERY comfortable bike, IMO.

 
There was a guy on this forum, Fred H., who had a '06 FJR. He kept it for 10K+ miles and sold it after buying a C14.

He said the C14 engine is obviously smoother than the FJR. He rated the engine better on the C14, the transmission shifts better, the suspension's better, and many other mechanicals are better.

He did say that the C14 is definitely hotter and the top of the engine is much harder to access for valve clearance checks, etc. So some maintenance is more difficult and more expensive on the C14.

One advantage of the C14 is its lower engine speed in top gear. It runs approximately 500 rpm slower at typical highway speeds.

From photos I've seen of the C14 with the plastic removed it appears that many electrical components, etc. were just shoehorned in a bit of a haphazard manner and then covered over with the plastic exterior. So it appears that the FJR is a bit better put together with a cleaner, more well designed layout.

The FJR engine does transmit a bit of vibration to the handlebars above 4K rpm. The foot pegs have a little vibration here and there but nothing particular objectionable. I laugh when someone on this forum says his FJR is buttery smooth. Compared to what I wonder?

 
Both bikes are so close overall that testers flip-flop on which is better. One may be smoother than the other in that one catagory. So what?

 
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Trading your FJR for a Connie would be like trading in a honda accord getting 35 mpg for a hybrid that got 38. The only signifigant difference is that the Concourse 1400 is the new kid on the block and lots of people want it and after they buy it they'll defend their choice. I love my FJR and other than my oil change fiasco I've never had a problem. No buzz, no tick, no excessive heat(every bike I've ever ridden was hot in the summer) , no strange tire wear, no switch problem, NOTHING. When you're on a forum of over 5,000 people you're gonna see people who don't like their bikes or have issues with them. I garantee that the Concourse has more design flaws than the FJR... Its a first year bike, manufaturers almost never get it right on the first try. just my 02 worth. Has this been moved to NEPRT yet?

 
There was a guy on this forum, Fred H., who had a '06 FJR. He kept it for 10K+ miles and sold it after buying a C14.
Yeah, he also insisted the kickstands were defective. :blink:

The FJR engine does transmit a bit of vibration to the handlebars above 4K rpm. The foot pegs have a little vibration here and there but nothing particular objectionable. I laugh when someone on this forum says his FJR is buttery smooth. Compared to what I wonder?
It is smooth compared to just about every other bike on the market.

Is it the smoothest? Not by a long shot.

Does it vibrate a lot? NO!

Here's my (weak) understanding of it:

An inline 4 cylinder 4 stroke engine is not really the smoothest crankshaft configuration out there. In fact it's pretty bad. To keep the firing cylinders even spaced means that 2 pistons will be at TDC when 2 pistons are at BDC. That means there will be a large primary imbalance in that reciprocating mass equivalent to an inline 2 cylinder. Having a V4 in the Honda ST allows them to have reciprocating masses on an angle to each other and reduces the primary imbalance vibration (before counterweights) somewhat.

A smoother crankshaft configuration would be an inline 3 cylinder (or 6 cylinder) engine where the masses are spread evenly around the crank rotation.

A boxer engine is different because the horizontally opposing cylinders have inertial masses that are equal and opposite, canceling each other out. But the boxer twin's rotating crankshaft weight doesn't (can't) cancel so there are still some major vibrations there.

Now put three boxer twins side by side and spaced on the crankshaft like the inline 3 cylinder and what do you have? A Goldwing.

 
Here's my (weak) understanding of it:An inline 4 cylinder 4 stroke engine is not really the smoothest crankshaft configuration out there. In fact it's pretty bad. To keep the firing cylinders even spaced means that 2 pistons will be at TDC when 2 pistons are at BDC. That means there will be a large primary imbalance in that reciprocating mass equivalent to an inline 2 cylinder.
Sorry 'Fred W', not true. The "common" in-line four stroke design you describe has perfect primary balance. In fact, the parallel-twin four stroke with a 180* crankshaft has perfect primary balance; but, due to the spacing between the cylinders, there's often a pretty serious 'rocking couple' that ends-up as vibration. On an in-line four (like the FJR's) two parallel twins together -- the 'rocking couples' are in opposite directions and tend to cancel out.

Having a V4 in the Honda ST allows them to have reciprocating masses on an angle to each other and reduces the primary imbalance vibration (before counterweights) somewhat.
Not quite: A 90* V-twin can be given perfect primary balance by counter-weighting all the rotating masses and the reciprocating masses on only one cylinder. Yet, without both rods on a single throw, a 'rocking couple' still exists. A V-four can be somewhat better with regards to balance (without an ancillary balancer, that is).

A smoother crankshaft configuration would be an inline 3 cylinder (or 6 cylinder) engine where the masses are spread evenly around the crank rotation.
With the in-line six four-stroke (inherently well balanced), it's because both the primary forces (once per revolution) and secondary forces (twice per revolution) are in-balance. With the four cylinder in-line, it's the out-of-balance secondary forces (caused be the non-symmetrical motion of the piston -- and compounded by a relatively short connecting rod) that conspire to cause in-line four 'buzz'.

A boxer engine is different because the horizontally opposing cylinders have inertial masses that are equal and opposite, canceling each other out. But the boxer twin's rotating crankshaft weight doesn't (can't) cancel so there are still some major vibrations there.
It's fully possible to counterweight a flat-twin crankshaft for all of the rotating masses (usually, not needed) and part of the reciprocating mass. But, it's the 'rocking couple' that causes them to 'buzz'.

Now put three boxer twins side by side and spaced on the crankshaft like the inline 3 cylinder and what do you have? A Goldwing.
True (tho, there's still a 'rocking couple') -- yet not all three cylinder four-strokes are of the 120* crank configuration (120* cranks are often saddled with a high-speed "whip" and their balance falls roughly midway between a 180* twin and an in-line four.

There are some 'flat-crank' three cylinder engines (two up -- one down crank-throw arrangement) and Ferrari has had very successful 'flat-crank' V-8s.

All this may be moot with respect to balance due to the application of engine balancers (especially, gear-driven balancers) commonly found on modern engines. Ducati (on the SuperMono) and BMW/Rotax (on their new 'F'-twins) have even gone so far as to employ rotating mass-lumps attached to the crankshaft to approximate smoothness.

Then we come to Yamaha's new R-1: which, apparently, has a crankshaft/engine firing like their M-1 MotoGP racers (which appear to have superb low-rpm accelleration). These in-line fours have staggered crankpins and fire more like multiple V-twins.

Staggered crank throws are not new -- Honda's tried it for years on cruisers -- but, it does show that (when it comes to engine design) just about anything is possible.

 
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Here's my (weak) understanding of it:An inline 4 cylinder 4 stroke engine is not really the smoothest crankshaft configuration out there. In fact it's pretty bad. To keep the firing cylinders even spaced means that 2 pistons will be at TDC when 2 pistons are at BDC. That means there will be a large primary imbalance in that reciprocating mass equivalent to an inline 2 cylinder.
Sorry 'Fred W', not true. The "common" in-line four stroke design you describe has perfect primary balance. In fact, the parallel-twin four stroke with a 180* crankshaft has perfect primary balance; but, due to the spacing between the cyclinders, there's often a pretty serious 'rocking couple' that ends-up as vibration. On an in-line four (like the FJR's) two parallel twins together -- the 'rocking couples' are in opposite directions and tend to cancel out.

Having a V4 in the Honda ST allows them to have reciprocating masses on an angle to each other and reduces the primary imbalance vibration (before counterweights) somewhat.
Not quite: A 90* V-twin can be given perfect primary balance by counter-weighting all the rotating masses and the reciprocating masses on only one cylinder. Yet, without both rods on a single throw, a 'rocking couple' still exists. A V-four can be somewhat better with regards to balance (without an ancillary balancer, that is).

A smoother crankshaft configuration would be an inline 3 cylinder (or 6 cylinder) engine where the masses are spread evenly around the crank rotation.
With the in-line six four-stroke (inherently well balanced), it's because both the primary forces (once per revolution) and secondary forces (twice per revolution) are in-balance. With the four cylinder in-line, it's the out-of-balance secondary forces (caused be the non-symmetrical motion of the piston -- and compounded by a relatively short connecting rod) that conspire to cause in-line four 'buzz'.

A boxer engine is different because the horizontally opposing cylinders have inertial masses that are equal and opposite, canceling each other out. But the boxer twin's rotating crankshaft weight doesn't (can't) cancel so there are still some major vibrations there.
It's fully possible to counterweight a flat-twin crankshaft for all of the rotating masses (usually, not needed) and part of the reciprocating mass. But, it's the 'rocking couple' that causes them to 'buzz'.

Now put three boxer twins side by side and spaced on the crankshaft like the inline 3 cylinder and what do you have? A Goldwing.
True (tho, there's still a 'rocking couple') -- yet not all three cylinder four-strokes are of the 120* crank configuration (120* cranks are often saddled with a high-speed "whip" and their balance falls roughly midway between a 180* twin and an in-line four.

There are some 'flat-crank' three cylinder engines (two up -- one down crank-throw arrangement) and Ferrari has had very successful 'flat-crank' V-8s.

All this may be moot with respect to balance due to the application of engine balancers (especially, gear-driven balancers) commonly found on modern engines. Ducati (on the SuperMono) and BMW/Rotax (on their new 'F'-twins) have even gone so far as to employ rotating mass-lumps attached to the crankshaft to approximate smoothness.

Then we come to Yamaha's new R-1: which, apparently, has a crankshaft/engine firing like their M-1 MotoGP racers (which appear to have superb low-rpm accelleration). These in-line fours have staggered crankpins and fire more like multiple V-twins.

Staggered crank throws are not new -- Honda's tried it for years on cruisers -- but, it does show that (when it comes to engine design) just about anything is possible.

Thanks CM,

As I said, my understanding was weak. ;)

So then, the bigger deal (for the I4) is the secondary forces of the crank... Hmmm.

 
Welllllll, mine does vibrate a bit (Okay--it's buzzy). AND there are those who are very sensitive to the harmonic vibes and couldn't buy an FJR (At Streetmasters I talked with one lady ST owner from WA who went home and test rode one). SO to post that the FJR doesn't vibrate might be a bit of a stretch. I have heavy bar ends and gel grips on my FJR and on longer trips I use my throttle lock to give my hands a rest.
Finally a comment that admits the reality.

Yes, it's buzzy ~4000-4500 and my right hand goes numb in ~20-30mins and I have to take rest stops. For most, this rpm range is typical (~60-80mph) on slabbing tour and I hate to have to stop so often :angry: .

I have risers, 1lb each bar ends, BMW sport grips (had tried grip puppies on stock grips) and have practiced the Yoda stance - but no dice.

I am going to install the USB III and use different maps to see if that can help me fix the vibes. In fact if it vibrates at lower than hi-way speed ranges that will suit me fine!

In any case, I am not interested in comparing the C14 to the FJR .... I would consider an RT or Triumph triple ...

FJR's "sport" factor in the twisties makes me think I have to find a fix for the vibes somehow ... not giving up now.

 
As consumers we speak with our pocketbooks and trust me when I say that both companies will look at sales and marketshare to hear our voices. Does a new offering from Kawasaki make me want my FJR less? Not a chance! Will it make me want to jump ship? No way. Will it make future FJR's better? You bet cha. I have spent lots of miles on the new Kawasaki C14 and it is a great bike and if I did not have long legs, who knows? It was the smoothest transmission and clutch I have ever used, but then I thought, how old fashioned to still be using a manual clutch. :assassin:

 
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