FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[rbentnail]

Fascinating reading folks. Great job!
Even and electrical ******* like me appreciates the collective attempt to re-engineer what Yammie has ****** up.

Oh, and did I mention how glad I am to have a Gen I?

Yeah, I think you may have mentioned that before <_<

 

[RZ350]

Well as much as I hated to remove the front of my bike.. I killed all the spiders today, with a cut, strip, twist, and solder.... 8 total are now removed.. I did see a hint the connector under the left side fuel tank starting to discolor. That tells me it was on the way to trouble. It just made sense to remove these at home, and not chance a problem on the road.
If anyone wants these's they are free, just pay shipping!!!

Smitty

PM sent...

 

[RZ350]

They were all fine ,and working as designed. So next I got out the ohm meeter and did some checking to see how Yammie has them wired (in series or parallel to ground). What I found is shocking, and no wonder they are failing. They are wired in series, so if one fails it will keep others from getting ground.
It looks like there is 2 spiders that each have one wire going to ground. These 2 spiders that are doing all the work are under the tank, front left and front right. The front left (the one that is failing the most) has 6 wires going to it, 1 goes to ground, and the other 5 wires go to 5 other spiders. So when this one fails it takes out 5 others with it. :glare: No wonder this one is failing.

The right front spider supplies ground to 1 other so not as much demand on this one.

If you unplug the left front, under tank spider you loose ground to, all 3 in the fairing, the 1 by the ECM, and 1 of the 2 by the left throttle body.

Unplug the right front and you loose ground to the 1 remaining spider at the TB.

I did like Smitty did, cut off connectors, and soldered the wires together with an additional wire going to the frame. Since all was working fine I didn't see the need to run 8 additional grnd wires. I added 3 grnd wires. One has the 3 dash spiders on it, the other 2 added grnd wires have 3 spiders on one, and 2 on the other.

Ride Safe; A.C.

Very interesting tidbit of information here - thanks for sharing. It's perhaps the vital key to solving this issue.

If your observations truly are the case (I don't doubt you), it seems it could be solved in a number of ways:

1. Add extra grounds to the left front and right front tank spiders only, thus boosting their capacity to carry the total load.

2. Add extra grounds to the downstream spiders only, thus keeping most of their current from going through the over-taxed under-tank spiders upstream.

3. Do 1 & 2, if don't want to leave anything to chance.

I'm sure there are other solutions too - these folks just haven't thought of them yet

Thanks again for your input.

 

[Fred W]

Wow. :dribble:

Road runner's findings explain precisely why the front left spider is the one that usually fails.

It is carrying a lot of (cumulative) current. And all of those ground currents need to go through the one little pin on that connector that goes to the thickest wire to ground. It is no wonder that this spider connector pin is overheating and failing. Even if the larger gauge wire is properly sized to handle the current, I seriously doubt the connector pin is rated to handle that. Good work, Art.

RZ350's solution should fix the problem (in the least invasive, and easily restore-able way, for those concerned with warranty issues) because he would be spreading that same amount of total current over all of the other 5 of that main spider's connector pins, effectively increasing the current handling capacity by 5x. I'd only want to do that fix to the two main spiders that combine the other grounds in the front, but it wouldn't hurt to do them all. I'd also be tempted to do something to waterproof all of the connections to help keep the grease in and the contacts in good shape long term.

[edit] The one challenge to making RZ350's solution work would be how to attach the new ground wire to the body of the spider. It would need to provide the both mechanical and electrical connection. Welding the wire to the spider would be the best bet. Or I guess you could use high temp solder.

 

[RZ350]

Just one more thought on this...

Not considering anything else, I would probably do Option 2, as even the OEM harness wires between the spiders may be reaching their current carrying capacity. HOWEVER, with option 1 it seems the ones under the tank are more readily accessible during routine service work so these are the most likely candidates for a simple and quick fix.

I would even consider popping in a couple of my modified spiders (as shown in earlier post) into the tank ground connectors BEFORE my Y.E.S. runs out. I'm overdue for a plug change, so the tank is getting lifted soon.

 

[RZ350]

[edit] The one challenge to making RZ350's solution work would be how to attach the new ground wire to the body of the spider. It would need to provide the both mechanical and electrical connection. Welding the wire to the spider would be the best bet. Or I guess you could use high temp solder.

Fred,

We must have been writing our posts at the same time.

Anyway, the spiders actually have a conveniently located hole in them already (was Yamaha already planning for this?) to insert the wire into. Just add a dab of solder and you are set. (edit: Look closely at my sketch and you will see I'm suggesting to solder it) I would probably double the wire back and cable tie it to the connector to act as a strain relief, thus increasing the life.

 

[Fred W]

Convenient, as you say...

That should work as long as the wire protruding through the metal body does not interfere on the underside of the spider. You will want to retain full engagement between the spider and connector body for full contact of the spade connections.

 

[RZ350]

Agreed - I think there is enough room to insert the wire through no more than about 1/16" and still let the cap snap in place. I haven't tried it yet on my spare harness, but maybe I will give it a go soon.

(EDIT: I will probably insert the wire through the hole about a 1/4", flare the very tips of the wire 90 degrees to fan it out and pull it back through until it contacts the back side of the spider. Lastly hit it with solder)

 

[road runner]

I think RZ350's , 5 into 1 idea will work fine and will be a lot easier than cutting them all off and soldering them like I did. I wish I had thought of it, or at least saw it before cutting all mine off. Oh well you know , day late, dollar short.

Is there any down side to doing what I did, other than a possible warranty issue ? Which I'm not worried about because my dealer is OK with me doing needed service. And he will go to bat for me with Yamaha, and they usually listen to what the dealer has to say.

 

[JamesK]

Agreed - I think there is enough room to insert the wire through no more than about 1/16" and still let the cap snap in place. I haven't tried it yet on my spare harness, but maybe I will give it a go soon.
(EDIT: I will probably insert the wire through the hole about a 1/4", flare the very tips of the wire 90 degrees to fan it out and pull it back through until it contacts the back side of the spider. Lastly hit it with solder)

RZ, I'm sure you've thought of this already, but just in case. From what i saw when playing with my spiders is that they make the best connection (most surface are contact with the pins) when fully inserted into the connector. With the wire soldered on the underside of the spider, even fanned out it will keep the spider a little more elevated. Also as far as keeping the spider in the connector i would suggest running a zip-tie over the top of the cap and around middle b/w the two sets of six wires, and folding the new ground wire back around and zip-tie that to the spider wires...

 

[RZ350]

I think RZ350's , 5 into 1 idea will work fine and will be a lot easier than cutting them all off and soldering them like I did. I wish I had thought of it, or at least saw it before cutting all mine off. Oh well you know , day late, dollar short.

Sorry RR, I just got involved in this topic a few days ago and it takes this mind a couple days to get going. :lol:

Maybe Yamaha is watching and now has some clues how to fix it. In the meantime, maybe there are other owners who can benefit from the simple fixes being generated here.

 

[RZ350]

Agreed - I think there is enough room to insert the wire through no more than about 1/16" and still let the cap snap in place. I haven't tried it yet on my spare harness, but maybe I will give it a go soon.
(EDIT: I will probably insert the wire through the hole about a 1/4", flare the very tips of the wire 90 degrees to fan it out and pull it back through until it contacts the back side of the spider. Lastly hit it with solder)

RZ, I'm sure you've thought of this already, but just in case. From what i saw when playing with my spiders is that they make the best connection (most surface are contact with the pins) when fully inserted into the connector. With the wire soldered on the underside of the spider, even fanned out it will keep the spider a little more elevated. Also as far as keeping the spider in the connector i would suggest running a zip-tie over the top of the cap and around middle b/w the two sets of six wires, and folding the new ground wire back around and zip-tie that to the spider wires...

Thanks JamesK, I truly welcome any comments from those that have actually dealt with the spiders thus far.

My plan was to fan the wires out nice and even into a single strand thickness. If that STILL keeps the black cap from snapping on, I will have to whittle away a small bit of the connector face to gain more room. This shouldn't compromise the connector body in any way - if these were all separate circuits, I may be more apprehensive about modifying the connector.

The last resort if all else is unsuccessful at allowing it to snap together, will be soldering completely on the top of the spider and just drill a larger hole in the black cap to make room for the blob of solder - the solder can still weep into that existing hole for a little extra grip.

I will keep that zip-tie idea in mind too - simple, yet very effective.

 

[RadioHowie]

Fascinating reading folks. Great job!
Even and electrical ******* like me appreciates the collective attempt to re-engineer what Yammie has ****** up.

Oh, and did I mention how glad I am to have a Gen I?

Seconded!

 

[Fred W]

Thirded!!

But that doesn't inhibit the inner geek in me from wanting to he'p fix up those unfortunate 2nd genners.

Here's what I'm, thinking:

Why not just solder the new beefy ground wire(s) to the outer faces of the spiders. As I mentioned before, you can do that with higher temp solder, which will make it less likely to melt if the connector were to get hot for some reason in the future. But, this may be a moot point, since the whole point of the added ground wire it to reduce the heat in the connection, and the melting temp of regular solder is much higher than the white plastic connector bodies anyway. You won't have changed any of the rest of the harness, so the original ground will still be in place.

Since you'd be soldering the additional ground wires onto the spiders on a workbench, there should be no worries about overheating the harness or connectors while soldering (big honkin' soldering irons apply) and you can slobber the connection with plenty of flux for a good connection, then clean it all up before use.

Wire mechanical support could just be a tie wrap to the rest of the wire bundle a little below the spider with a small amount of slack between for strain relief.

 

[JamesK]

Thirded!!
But that doesn't inhibit the inner geek in me from wanting to he'p fix up those unfortunate 2nd genners.

Here's what I'm, thinking:

Why not just solder the new beefy ground wire(s) to the outer faces of the spiders. As I mentioned before, you can do that with higher temp solder, which will make it less likely to melt if the connector were to get hot for some reason in the future. But, this may be a moot point, since the whole point of the added ground wire it to reduce the heat in the connection, and the melting temp of regular solder is much higher than the white plastic connector bodies anyway. You won't have changed any of the rest of the harness, so the original ground will still be in place.

Since you'd be soldering the additional ground wires onto the spiders on a workbench, there should be no worries about overheating the harness or connectors while soldering (big honkin' soldering irons apply) and you can slobber the connection with plenty of flux for a good connection, then clean it all up before use.

Wire mechanical support could just be a tie wrap to the rest of the wire bundle a little below the spider with a small amount of slack between for strain relief.

Fred, your suggested steps are only one short step from the "complete solution" I have done using the spiders (described earlier) so why not go all the way? Basically after you get the new ground wire soldered onto the back of the spider plug it into the pins, that have been removed from the spider connector (which with a small pick is really easy and quick) and plug them on each leg of the spider. Now just solder each pin of the plugs to the respective spider leg (making sure to plug the pins on with the crimped side facing out) this way you can also run a little bit of solder on the crimp to ensure permanent connection.

 

[Fred W]

Sorry James, I'm not quite following you.

Can you elucidate further?

 

[JamesK]

Sorry James, I'm not quite following you.
Can you elucidate further?

Fred, it's not a biggie, I'm just pretty happy with the way I did it and simplifies some of the PITA work while still keeping it bulletproof, here are a couple of pics to help show what I mean, and full explanation in my original post on previous page

 

[dirttracker30]

My bike looks just like Smittys, :blink: because I killed the 8 spiders today. Before doing so I checked them & did some diag.
They were all fine ,and working as designed. So next I got out the ohm meeter and did some checking to see how Yammie has them wired (in series or parallel to ground). What I found is shocking, and no wonder they are failing. They are wired in series, so if one fails it will keep others from getting ground.

It looks like there is 2 spiders that each have one wire going to ground. These 2 spiders that are doing all the work are under the tank, front left and front right. The front left (the one that is failing the most) has 6 wires going to it, 1 goes to ground, and the other 5 wires go to 5 other spiders. So when this one fails it takes out 5 others with it. :glare: No wonder this one is failing.

The right front spider supplies ground to 1 other so not as much demand on this one.

If you unplug the left front, under tank spider you loose ground to, all 3 in the fairing, the 1 by the ECM, and 1 of the 2 by the left throttle body.

Unplug the right front and you loose ground to the 1 remaining spider at the TB.

Also there is a white 6 pin plug at the left front fairing (under the glove box) that connects the 3 fairing spiders to the rest. So make sure it is clean and greased or you could loose the front 3 spiders. Can't solder this or you won't be able to get the top fairing off.

I did like Smitty did, cut off connectors, and soldered the wires together with an additional wire going to the frame. Since all was working fine I didn't see the need to run 8 additional grnd wires. I added 3 grnd wires. One has the 3 dash spiders on it, the other 2 added grnd wires have 3 spiders on one, and 2 on the other.

I didn't read all 7 pages on this topic, so if someone already posted this info, sorry.

Ride Safe; A.C.

Good job roadrunner. could you be specific as to which spiders by the TB on the left side of engine that each (LH or RH ) spider control? I am thinking of doing the 5 into 1 on the spider that is under the left lower fairing panel, the EC spider and the one by the TB that the same left hand spider controls. That would take the load of three of the downstream spiders off of that LH spider's circuit, leaving only the ones in the front of the fairing. This would be real close to the load that the RH spider is controlling. Does this sound resonable. I really don't want to pull the whole fairing off. Just in case though I have a list of all Yamaha dealers from St.Louis to Daytona (bikeweek),via MO.,TN., MS., AL.,FL just in case. Please chime in abbout this . And thanks to everybody that has worked on this problem. Go Fast ,Turn Left

 

[RZ350]

My research shows the following for harness part numbers:

2006 FJR1300A

3P6-82590-10-00 Wire Harness Assy

2006 FJR1300AE

2D2-82590-10-00 Wire Harness Assy

2007 FJR1300A

3P6-82590-10-00 Wire Harness Assy

2007 FJR1300AE

2D2-82590-10-00 Wire Harness Assy

2008 FJR1300A

3P6-82590-60-00 Wire Harness Assy

Sorry - didn’t research the CA versions.

So ’06 and ’07 main harnesses are identical and ’08 differs in some way. When I was identifying each branch of the harness months ago, there WERE a couple of component branches that didn’t match the schematic so I suspect Yamaha made a minor change between ’07 and ’08. The suffix is different (-10 vs. -60) which suggests a change, but I don’t know how Yamaha bumps their revision levels (Can anyone enlighten us?).

My spare harness is tagged with two numbers, one matching the single ’08 number listed above and a second number (3P6-84359-30) on the removable branch harness which I assume leads to the front end of this bike. This branch harness can be completely removed from the main harness via 3 connectors (12 pin, 10 pin, and single heavy gauge pin). My secondary harness has some slight damage on it and that is why it was being auctioned. I just wanted to mention all this because the findings from my harness might not match the ’06 and ’07 perfectly.

So here is the table I’m planning to fill out on the harness. I just filled in some example data to give you an idea where I’m headed with this, so please don’t be too critical yet. Please do speak up if you think I left any columns out that may help out in the future. I’m going to start with the 2 or 3 culprit spider connectors, and if this proves to be beneficial and not too time consuming, I will continue with the rest of the eight.

 

[olsonm3915]

That spreadsheet looks great, exactly like what I would like to do if I had the ambition and time.

Personally, I tend to think in terms of schematics rather than wire lists but any additional information is an improvement no matter what form it's in, so long as it's accurate. I have an '07 so even if your information is not exactly the same as mine it's valuable to use as a starting point for comparison and I suspect 99% of the wiring is identical.

Thanks for what you've done, and shared with the group so far. The power of sharing information for problem solving is phenomenal.