FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[Checkswrecks]

And here's some news for our friends south of the border, No one is doing anything for you..

I think some of you guys just ASSume altogether too much.

Here's some news for you....you're wrong. I do know something is being worked.

Don't ASSume.....except that sugar usually works better than vinegar.

I'm scheduled to have a chat this morning with TC - if, as you suggest there is action with the NHTSA I'll find out, since TC and the Americans trade information.

I'll agree with the folks who are trying to let you know that you're working against help by coming across too strong.

There is something afoot in the US and I can't be more specific than that. Yamaha has been aware of the issue but has their own internal limitations and we would've seen action earlier if it weren't for some other major challenges they're working with. With respect to lack of acknowledgement, Yamaha was typical in their previous recalls and when compared to any number of companies, in that they won't even acknowledge an issue publicly, let alone acknowledge a problem, until the fix and production pipeline is set in stone. And if you think a Japanese company is bad, try talking to Apple or Ford about a product problem. Knowing a few of their competing priorities, I'll just add that losing power from a harness failure in a low-volume bike pales as a priority when compared to some of the Wave Runner and quad issues that the same people are working on.

As an insight from somebody who's been involved with these things for a couple of decades, tone it down. You're over-stating your knowledge by thinking you'll hear of something within the US process through a third party, even if it is Transport Canada. You may have folks at TC talking to you, but clearly don't understand how people working on anything that has to do with even a potential recall in the US are absolutely forbidden about talking about it, to the point of prosecution.

Checkswrecks

 

[bramfrank]

Umm . . . open investigations by the NHTSA are public information and are published on their web.

that should be web SITE.

It sure would be nice to be able to edit my posts.

 

[Warchild]

As an insight from somebody who's been involved with these things for a couple of decades, tone it down.

Strongly, and emphatically concur. And I *do* know a fair amount about this process, because I was the tip of the spear on the Ticking issues on the Gen I's. I got inside the Technical Division at Cypress, and quietly worked with 2-3 engineers to help get the situation resolved.

This public blasting of Yamaha that you are doing is ill-advised, and counter-productive.

You're over-stating your knowledge by thinking you'll hear of something within the US process through a third party, even if it is Transport Canada. You may have folks at TC talking to you, but clearly don't understand how people working on anything that has to do with even a potential recall in the US are absolutely forbidden about talking about it, to the point of prosecution.

Checkswrecks

Checkswecks is spot-on-the-money here. If you think that NHTSA and/or Yamaha USA is unaware or doing nothing about this, you are wrong.

Good luck, bramfrank..... given your approach to Yamaha here, I suspect you might need it.

 

[brap]

So I sent an email to a friend of a friend that is a fellow Feejer just as a "hey, what's up" and this was his response when the spiders came up:

Read the info on the web link. My previous FJR was a 2005 I will contact my friend XXXXXXXXXXXXXwho is head of all safety and technical issues for Yamaha at their headquarters in Cypress California. He is the one that writes the safety and technical memos and issues any recall notices. I was not aware of this issue. Can't believe Yamaha has not addressed this in a recall if it's been a problem since the 2006 redesign. Thanks for the heads up

I will pass on what his response is.

Brap

 

[Flash1034]

So I sent an email to a friend of a friend that is a fellow Feejer just as a "hey, what's up" and this was his response when the spiders came up:

Read the info on the web link. My previous FJR was a 2005 I will contact my friend XXXXXXXXXXXXXwho is head of all safety and technical issues for Yamaha at their headquarters in Cypress California. He is the one that writes the safety and technical memos and issues any recall notices. I was not aware of this issue. Can't believe Yamaha has not addressed this in a recall if it's been a problem since the 2006 redesign. Thanks for the heads up

I will pass on what his response is.

Brap

Awesome. Thanks.

Flash

 

[bramfrank]

Well, I just had a couple of long conversations with the field inspector from Transport Canada. We're meeting on Friday morning and the Yamaha rep will be present (the rep was the person who inspected the machine after the first event). My dealer was less than happy about this because he is overbooked, but Yamaha is insisting it be at a dealer's premises. The inspector was fine about doing it at my place but then Yamaha wouldn't have been there. More when this happens. I hope they check ALL of the spiders, including the one up front . . . .

They inspected two other bikes in the area last week - one was an S4 issue, the other was *someting else* and in the latter case Yamaha authorised a harness replaceent.

TC tells me that this is now a 'level 3' investigation, which is VERY serious. They also have reconfirmed that the NHTSA is NOT running any programs and that all programs they run in the US are public knowledge - Yamaha may or may not have something running in Cypress or Toronto - I do know that parts were sent to Japan for analysis.

As to what may be happening south of the 49th paralledl I cannot say and to be honest, I would care less except for the fact that someone will be killed and it won't be for my lack of trying. Did it impact on the situation up here in Canada? Absolutely. TC would not be running their investigation had we not been pushing them and Yamaha will need to do something preventative given the life safety factors that are imnpacted by this defect. The only real questions are what they will have to do and when will they do it.

 

[El Cajone]

Keep up the good work, Bram! I for one appreciate all the advocacy work you've done with TC, who have registered my report on my spider failure.

 

[bramfrank]

Inspection day:

I called AMA Roadside Assistance and they showed up (2 hours late) to flatbed the bike to the dealer - I'd tried to have it moved twice previously, but they simply couldn't organise to deliver the machine during the shop's open hours and they wouldn't book a morning transfer in advance. It didn't help that they kept telling me I was in British Columbia and the tow was some 2000 miles . . . . but in the end the driver was great and we managed to get to the shop only a half hour late for the appointment.

The TC field inspector and the Yamaha rep were in the office and we all went to the shop - they wanted no input from me, but were not comfortable with the accessories and their attendant wiring; There is a gum-based water seal applied to the servo for the cruise and they thought it was burned plastic, for example. They didn't like the splices for the speedo healer and such., In the end they only looked at a few of the spiders, concentrating on S4 - that was the likely culprit anyway . . .

They took a bunch of photos (it didn't look much different than it did last year when it went bad) and afterward I had a chat with the TC rep - he told me that of the 4 FJRs he has inspected in recent weeks, three were heavily farkled and the fourth did not exhibit an S4 issue (yet apparently Yamaha authorised replacement of the wiring harness anyway). I suspect that his issue may have been another spider - they were not all that pro-active in checking all of them on mine - so perhaps it was another of them. And if this person had an issue with the nacelle, I hope that they replaced that harness as well!!

We then discussed the loads imposed by the accessories; But let's get fair - the big current draw on my bike is the HID driving light set and it sucks all of about 80 watts. The cruise is a 1 amp device, as is the GPS, nothing else pulls any significant current.

He theorised that the loads may push the current 'over the edge' since bikes are designed with less tolerance than (his comparison) a pickup truck.

Not unreasonable - but after I got home I gave it some thought (and checked the schematic) - the connection between the stator/regulator and the battery doesn't go through the black/white wiring of the harness - so greater loads from farkles connected to the battery would not increase the current through the spiders - and I sent a follow-up e-mail to the inspector with that observation.

I gather from the rep's comments that it is Yamaha's intention to replace the wiring harness on my bike and send it to Japan - I gather they did this with the other three they checked out here.

After they put the machine back together I immediately took it apart again while it was still on the platform and soldered an 18 gauge wire from the spider clip on S4 (and another on the one near the ECU) and ran those both the negative post of my Blueseas fuse block which is connected back to the battery on a 10 gauge wire . . . the ride home was uneventful. I suppose it'll have to do as a stopgap solution for now.

Now I need to figure out why my bike keeps draining my battery when it sits ever since they changed my ignition switch under the recall - and when it conked out on Wednesday after a short run, even turning off the ignition switch didn't shut the power - I am concerned that the ignition switch could be intermittently defective or maybe the master relay - though my meter doesn't show any appreciable current being sucked when the ignition is off.

So the bike is now on a battery tender when not being ridden - bummer. It used to be able to sit a whole winter - and the battery is brand new and was originally replaced becauyse it wasn't holding a charge - and the manufacturer changed the new battery . . Maybe it is a matter of power leakage. Can I trust the machine?

I suppose that at some point my dealer will be calling me to bring the machine in for the harness swap and the cllock for that problem will be restarted . . . I hope that aside from the one fastener that the rep forgot to reinstall (and I guess took with him, since he put the parts in his tool box) is as bad as it will be from here on in.

I hope that this all means that a solution is being designed or a procedure defined for us.

More as and when it develops.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Inspection day:

The TC field inspector and the Yamaha rep were in the office and we all went to the shop - they wanted no input from me,

Don't take it personal. You just can't do an investigation with an owner trying to "help."

but were not comfortable with the accessories and their attendant wiring; There is a gum-based water seal applied to the servo for the cruise and they thought it was burned plastic, for example. They didn't like the splices for the speedo healer and such.

They took a bunch of photos (it didn't look much different than it did last year when it went bad) and afterward I had a chat with the TC rep - he told me that of the 4 FJRs he has inspected in recent weeks, three were heavily farkled

I've been wondering why yours statistically seems to be an outlier. You went home and start soldering to further modify things. Again, nothing personal and I'm not saying that you did something wrong so please don't take it that way, but these lines are starting to sound like potential clues.

He theorised that the loads may push the current 'over the edge' since bikes are designed with less tolerance than (his comparison) a pickup truck.

Not unreasonable - but after I got home I gave it some thought (and checked the schematic) - the connection between the stator/regulator and the battery doesn't go through the black/white wiring of the harness - so greater loads from farkles connected to the battery would not increase the current through the spiders

Sometimes what seems reasonable just turns out not to be. For example, the Gen2 ignition switches also seemed to have extra capability, until they didn't in real life. Later you also mention have a sneak circuit draining your battery. The inspector sounds like he's been around the track before, so glad you have somebody like that.

I gather from the rep's comments that it is Yamaha's intention to replace the wiring harness on my bike and send it to Japan - I gather they did this with the other three they checked out here.

They've quietly done this with a lot of parts and have a rep within the investigation biz of being very good and thorough. After all you've written about them not being responsive, when (not if) they do you right I sure hope hope publicize it just as much. I can't say much more but there are things happening behind the curtains.

 

[brap]

Their response was that any issues need to be brought to a dealer and no other comment. Makes me feel good that a covered my butt with a Brodie harness. Hopefully they are gonna at least address it on future models.

 

[bramfrank]

Actually, my battery isn't maintining a charge - that doesn't mean it is a sneak circuit - it doesn't measure that there is one either. I believe that the new battery simply sucks.

As to publicly acclaiming their actions, should they engineer a solution? It's sure taking them a long time - we're at 2 years and counting that we know dealers have been experiencing the problem and so far all we've got is that they have been pushed by Transport Canada to get it taken care of. When there's a solution, then Yamaha will be doing the right thing because they'll be mailing notices to all owners. My reaction to that will be that "it's about time".

Soldering wires? That was to bypass the ground issues. And I didn't go home to do it - I did it at the dealer's shop before I left, immediately after the inspection was completed. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my accessories. I was asked not to touch the machine when it failed the second time and I want to ride it. I can't do that with the present wiring harness unless the spiders are bypassed.

As to what Cypress is doing? The rep told me outright that they work closely together and that they are just now starting their investigation in the 'states. I'm also told that the NHTSA is doing nothing - Nada - Zip and this from all parties.

In the meantime I have put my machine up for sale locally. I'm headed back to Kawasaki land.

 

[LAF]

Actually, my battery isn't maintining a charge - that doesn't mean it is a sneak circuit - it doesn't measure that there is one either. I believe that the new battery simply sucks.

As to publicly acclaiming their actions, should they engineer a solution? It's sure taking them a long time - we're at 2 years and counting that we know dealers have been experiencing the problem and so far all we've got is that they have been pushed by Transport Canada to get it taken care of. When there's a solution, then Yamaha will be doing the right thing because they'll be mailing notices to all owners. My reaction to that will be that "it's about time".

Soldering wires? That was to bypass the ground issues. And I didn't go home to do it - I did it at the dealer's shop before I left, immediately after the inspection was completed. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my accessories. I was asked not to touch the machine when it failed the second time and I want to ride it. I can't do that with the present wiring harness unless the spiders are bypassed.

As to what Cypress is doing? The rep told me outright that they work closely together and that they are just now starting their investigation in the 'states. I'm also told that the NHTSA is doing nothing - Nada - Zip and this from all parties.

In the meantime I have put my machine up for sale locally. I'm headed back to Kawasaki land.

I think all I can say is Thank You for your efforts.

I have read this from the beginning, and every one of your post's since I joined the site.

I think you have hit your point on this and have decided to move on and that seems best for you and BAD for us in that we lose a Advocate that really "annoyed" people to get these things documented and listed, no matter where you live.

I think your tone was great but has slowly turned to reflect your frustration over the issue and lack of concern, both from Official Channels, but also what you perceive to be owners lack of concern or actions also. You cant fix stupid!

I wish you well, and again, your efforts were appreciated by me.

Lee

 

[BkrK12]

I just received a call from the DOT NHTSA investigator. He made an appointment to come and see my bike next week. I'll post a follow up after he has a look at it.

Dan

 

[bramfrank]

Perhaps they finally decided to get off the pot on their own, though I know that there was a long telephone discussion earlier this week between Ottawa and someone oin authority in the US. If that's what it took, then fantastic.

 

[Harald]

I just received a call from the DOT NHTSA investigator. He made an appointment to come and see my bike next week. I'll post a follow up after he has a look at it.

Dan

That sounds VERY promising! I wish they'd come and look at my bike, although my spider bite has been removed and replaced with solder/shrink wrap. Plus I'm probably too far away from headquarters in DC. I'd be glad to show them the picture though:

Anxiously waiting to hear what they have to say.....

 

[bramfrank]

Just to comment;

I was at Americade yesterday ands met a couple of FJR owners (one on an '05 and the other on an '06) - neither of them visits the board and one of them had been Spider Bitten - he told me his dealer charged him $900 for the service, though he did';t remember if it was only for the problem or whether he had supplementary work done - he said he'd check his bill and I did give him my business card..

I did invite them both to come up here and participate - and in the case of the owner of the '06, did suggest that $900 seemed a bit on the overkill side for the cost of a repair and that, had I been aware of the issue, I likely would have gotten on the phone with Cypress and discussed a goodwill adjustment for the charge to repair this defect.

 

[bramfrank]

Well, today the Transport Canada field engineer I met at my bike's second inspection phoned to discuss the my bike and it's accessories so he could complete his report. The interview took the form he asking directed questions and of me discussing my accessories, their wiring and the load they may have imposed on the electrical system and the wiring harness in particular..

Once completed, we discussed the issues and he told me that he had a complete harness that he had inspected (turns out not to have included the front sub-harness which also has some failure-prone spiders) and that he'd looked at the RZ350's power distribution chart. He said that if the S4 connector really carries 40 amps to the battery at peak then his opinion is that the harness is truly under-designed.

We also discussed the numbers of affected machines. I lamented the fact that the poll has disappeared from this thread because the sheer numbers serve to underscore the urgent need to get this resolved before someone (else?) is killed or maimed.

He asked if Yamaha had contacted me about replacing my wiring harness - I had to say that they have not, though it was mentioned during the inspection 2 weeks ago.

His report will be filed this week and I gather from the tone and content of our conversation, that it will be rather negative - the defect investigator is the person who deals with whatever the report says and, together with HIS superiors decides what the course of action will be. The department is apparently not as empowered as I would like. However I gather that Yamaha isn't going to be allowed to talk their way out of the problem.

Any news from the U.S. and the NHTSA? Wasn't there supposed to be a field visit?

And just so we can keep tabs, it is now 3 years since the first issues were reported.- and the fact is that dealers have been seeing the problem for longer than we've known about it on this site.

I'm honestly too lazy to check, but did I mention that I have seen the report of the first non-north-American spider-bitten Gen-II? 'twas in Australia.

 

[BkrK12]

The NHTSA investigator looked at my bike yesterday. He is currently in a fact finding mode and would appreciate hearing directly from you if you have experienced either or both of the following:

1. An actual on the road failure where, without warning, all power is lost and the fault is ultimately determined to be a spider.

2. A failure of a new, already replaced harness. In other words, you had a failure, got a new harness and then had a failure of the new harness.

He is only interested in hearing directly from people who have personally experienced these two occurences. If you have some other issue or have only heard of someone else having a problem, please don't contact him at this time.

His name is Bob Young and his email is [email protected]

Thanks,

Dan

 

[MartyA]

The NHTSA investigator looked at my bike yesterday. He is currently in a fact finding mode and would appreciate hearing directly from you if you have experienced either or both of the following:

1. An actual on the road failure where, without warning, all power is lost and the fault is ultimately determined to be a spider.

2. A failure of a new, already replaced harness. In other words, you had a failure, got a new harness and then had a failure of the new harness.

He is only interested in hearing directly from people who have personally experienced these two occurences. If you have some other issue or have only heard of someone else having a problem, please don't contact him at this time.

His name is Bob Young and his email is [email protected]

Thanks,

Dan

Anything we should put in the subject line of the email? Some code or "SPIDER BITE YAMAHA FJR" OR ??

And THANKS for this!

 

[BkrK12]

Didn't think to ask him that question. But, based on the way we talked about it, I'd suggest "Yamaha FJR1300 Ground Failure". The "spider" thing is not official nomenclature.

Dan