escapefjrtist
Searching for Dry Roads
It lives!!
Congrats Jasen.
--G
Congrats Jasen.
--G
Fork maintenance failure
- Thread starter gixxerjasen
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
garyahouse
newbs need the forum
Hey Steve,
You serious about getting your forks rebuilt? How many miles since they were serviced?
Congratulations Jason, on finally getting this done. What did Traxxion say about their reasoning for leaving out the middle bushing? Did they explain why they felt they were unnecessary? I'm wondering why Yammie felt like they were. My Gen 1 forks don't have that middle bushing, as you know.
Gary
darksider #44
Haven't we already had that discussion extensively? If I were Jasen I'd be happy that they left them out. Think how much easier it will all be in 25 k more miles. 
gixxerjasen
Well-known member
I did drop them a note about it yesterday. We'll see what they say but I suspect we'll have to wait till after the weekend. I really wasn't asking why it wasn't put in there but more mentioning that since I sent them the bushings it would be nice to have been contacted about it before it was all done.
Most of the why's of not putting it in are earlier in this thread. Mostly because it doesn't improve anything and actually contributes to the wear of the lower bushing. Some have pulled them at 20K miles and the lower bushing is already trashed. That doesn't happen on most other bikes that have only an upper and a lower.
Most of the why's of not putting it in are earlier in this thread. Mostly because it doesn't improve anything and actually contributes to the wear of the lower bushing. Some have pulled them at 20K miles and the lower bushing is already trashed. That doesn't happen on most other bikes that have only an upper and a lower.
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garyahouse
newbs need the forum
Not sure 'bout that Fred, maybe WE (whoever that may be) have indeed discussed it extensively, but quite obviously I didn't read this whole thread. I'll be happy to admit that I'm a little out of your "loop" today. By the way, thank you again for all your advice as I was working my way through my fork rebuild last month.
Thank you, Jason for humoring me and answering my questions. I wondered to myself why my bushings had such little wear on them when I tore apart my forks (with 38k on them) last month. I checked each with my dial caliper against the new ones. Though calipers can't detect minute differences, I would have caught it if there was as little as .001 of wear. The measurements showed none. They didn't appear to have much wear on them either. And since I didn't change the fork oil in all that time (my bad), I was just sure that my bushings would be shot, or worn, or at least something !!! So what you're saying is that the third bushing seems to cause extra wear? I need to read the rest of this thread. This should be interesting. From a practical standpoint, it seems hard to believe. You'd think that an extra bushing would reduce wear. That is really strange. But I guess seeing IS BELIEVING.
Gary
darksider #44
Thank you, Jason for humoring me and answering my questions. I wondered to myself why my bushings had such little wear on them when I tore apart my forks (with 38k on them) last month. I checked each with my dial caliper against the new ones. Though calipers can't detect minute differences, I would have caught it if there was as little as .001 of wear. The measurements showed none. They didn't appear to have much wear on them either. And since I didn't change the fork oil in all that time (my bad), I was just sure that my bushings would be shot, or worn, or at least something !!! So what you're saying is that the third bushing seems to cause extra wear? I need to read the rest of this thread. This should be interesting. From a practical standpoint, it seems hard to believe. You'd think that an extra bushing would reduce wear. That is really strange. But I guess seeing IS BELIEVING.
Gary
darksider #44
gixxerjasen
Well-known member
Gary, here is not only a good writeup on fork maintenance for the Gen II, but also a good example of worn bushings with only 22K on the bike.
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140923
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140923
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Just piggybacking on this thread instead of starting another redundant thread:
Based on the misery Jasen went through we made the decision to bring Dad's '07 to the dealership for the blown fork seal. They have now had the bike for 2 weeks and a day. They finally told Dad this morning that they cannot get the forks apart. I'll bet this is going to cost way more money than we had planned.
Based on the misery Jasen went through we made the decision to bring Dad's '07 to the dealership for the blown fork seal. They have now had the bike for 2 weeks and a day. They finally told Dad this morning that they cannot get the forks apart. I'll bet this is going to cost way more money than we had planned.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
No way. You took the bike to them to avoid that problem. If they damage the forks getting them apart, that's on them. They should have all the proper tools for the job and the know-how to prevent that issue.
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
Damn right, AJ...if a "dealership" can't work on/fix a product they sell (and allegedly service) then they should have their dealership taken away from them.
'fish, get that bike the hell away from those POS lunkheads and NEVER show your ugly mug in their store EVER again!
'fish, get that bike the hell away from those POS lunkheads and NEVER show your ugly mug in their store EVER again!
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
escapefjrtist
Searching for Dry Roads
Too bad, one would expect a dealer to have the knowledge and expertise to perform simple tasks.
Interested to see how this one turns out...good luck 'fish.
--G
Interested to see how this one turns out...good luck 'fish.
--G
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Pop was pretty pissed when he called them this morning. We had discussed this thread prior to our decision to take the bike there. I have never tackled front forks before and did not want to be responsible for messing up Dad's bike.
Getting the bike out of there might be a problem as it does not have the front forks attached to it right now.
Gixxerjasen told me today that the correct method to disassemble the forks is the "pressure" method, not the "yank" method. I suppose I will be paying them a visit on Tuesday.
On the plus side, the General Manager knows us well and he knows we are good customers. He is well aware that many things that could be purchased off the internet are bought at his parts counter instead. Dad even gets his tires from there.
Dad did mention this morning that he was very tempted by the '14 FJR. He wondered what the dealership might be willing to do for him in this case. Like me, he has a money concern but that is not a huge issue. The bank has plenty of money.
Getting the bike out of there might be a problem as it does not have the front forks attached to it right now.
Gixxerjasen told me today that the correct method to disassemble the forks is the "pressure" method, not the "yank" method. I suppose I will be paying them a visit on Tuesday.
On the plus side, the General Manager knows us well and he knows we are good customers. He is well aware that many things that could be purchased off the internet are bought at his parts counter instead. Dad even gets his tires from there.
Dad did mention this morning that he was very tempted by the '14 FJR. He wondered what the dealership might be willing to do for him in this case. Like me, he has a money concern but that is not a huge issue. The bank has plenty of money.
Chuck35
Well-known member
Have them ship the forks to Traxxion.Just piggybacking on this thread instead of starting another redundant thread:
Based on the misery Jasen went through we made the decision to bring Dad's '07 to the dealership for the blown fork seal. They have now had the bike for 2 weeks and a day. They finally told Dad this morning that they cannot get the forks apart. I'll bet this is going to cost way more money than we had planned.
Even if he gets the '14 I assume you might end up with his (old) FJR?
Speaking of Traxxion, I bough a pair of forks they had upgraded with AK-20's. Is it safe to assume I dont have the middle bushings and can expect a longer service life out of them?
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First off, before you brought your Dad's bike in for the fork maintenance did you try cleaning the seals first using a seal mate tool? I seriously doubt that his seals were blown. The vast majority of seals that get replaced for being "blown" are just dirty and can be saved with a good cleaning. Fork seals don't really "blow." The lip can tear (usually from a tool), or after a very long time (like more than 100k miles) the lip can wear out. But they do not just "blow".
Secondly, yeah you can press the seals out hydraulically, (FWIW it makes a huge mess). That doesn't mean it is the "right" way. I think Jasen may be a little biased by his prior misfortune, but knocking them out is the only method to replace both the seals and bushings per the FSM. On any 2nd gen I would also want to replace the bushings at the same time if I were actually going to replace the seals.
Thirdly, what was the arrangement when you brought the bike in for the repair? Did they quote you a price to do the job (i.e. flat rate)? Or did they say it would be time and materials at a certain labor rate and itemized parts price? If the former (which is by far the more common) then they are responsible for any added expense in getting the job done, up to and including replacing any parts they happen to mangle in the course of doing it. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If the latter, then I'm afraid it's on you. Personally, I would much rather do it myself if the arrangement was the latter. At least then you'd be the one to blame for screwing things up.
Secondly, yeah you can press the seals out hydraulically, (FWIW it makes a huge mess). That doesn't mean it is the "right" way. I think Jasen may be a little biased by his prior misfortune, but knocking them out is the only method to replace both the seals and bushings per the FSM. On any 2nd gen I would also want to replace the bushings at the same time if I were actually going to replace the seals.
Thirdly, what was the arrangement when you brought the bike in for the repair? Did they quote you a price to do the job (i.e. flat rate)? Or did they say it would be time and materials at a certain labor rate and itemized parts price? If the former (which is by far the more common) then they are responsible for any added expense in getting the job done, up to and including replacing any parts they happen to mangle in the course of doing it. Don't let them tell you otherwise. If the latter, then I'm afraid it's on you. Personally, I would much rather do it myself if the arrangement was the latter. At least then you'd be the one to blame for screwing things up.
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gixxerjasen
Well-known member
FSM specifies seals to be blown out, not knocked out. That's why I said it was the "Right" way. Don't know about his dad's seal, but mine weeped a while before and I used sealmate and cleaned it up. Never weeped again. Later the other one began weeping so I did the same process and never could get it to stop weeping, hence my maintenance.
If you bought forks serviced by traxxion, they don't have the middle bushing I'd be willing to bet. I sent them all my bushings and they shipped my forks back with the middle ones still in the bag.
Keep us posted RH on how this works out. I certainly will be following along.
If you bought forks serviced by traxxion, they don't have the middle bushing I'd be willing to bet. I sent them all my bushings and they shipped my forks back with the middle ones still in the bag.
Keep us posted RH on how this works out. I certainly will be following along.
RaYzerman19
Go Wings!
Hydraulic removal of seals is going to be awful messy, plus I am kinda doubtful it will be successful. IF you are having a seal issue and no intention of replacing the bushings, then you could pry or dig out a seal by other means. But, I'd try the seal cleaning method first.
For those commenting on the Gen II middle bushings (leaving them in or out), remember you have to get the originals out regardless. That involves the slide action pounding, no choice. I'd recommend not trying to do it all in one big bash so you don't slide one inside the other. Not sure how this is being messed up, as it is the second time we've heard about it. Is this not the real problem we're trying to solve? As for not putting the middle one back in, you choice, but it's going to be a while before you replace them again....
For those commenting on the Gen II middle bushings (leaving them in or out), remember you have to get the originals out regardless. That involves the slide action pounding, no choice. I'd recommend not trying to do it all in one big bash so you don't slide one inside the other. Not sure how this is being messed up, as it is the second time we've heard about it. Is this not the real problem we're trying to solve? As for not putting the middle one back in, you choice, but it's going to be a while before you replace them again....
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Trying to address all responses here.
1. I was not with Pop when he brought the bike in. They see this bike regularly. Other than the easy routine maintenance that I do, everything that is done to that FJR is done in that dealership. The oil and filters are bought there as well. I have no idea what they said or Pop said, I am sure that if the forks will not come apart and all new components are needed, there will be extra costs. We will see what happens. I am not going to get upset with them until I see what they are willing to do.
2. The right front fork seal has leaked before and been replaced before. I have used the SealMate on it three different times when it was weeping a little. In each case, it held for 3-4 months.
3. When I say the seal "blew out" what I mean is there was an almost unnoticeable weep. Then one morning there was a puddle of oil on the shop floor. The right fork, the brake calipers, the brake pads, the wheel and the tire were all saturated by the river of oil that ran out of the fork.
4. I have no idea what Pop and I will do about selling/trading/buying new bikes. Pop told me today that when he bought that bike, he intended that to be his last motorcycle. When I recommended he buy that FJR, I assured him it was a reliable, high mileage capable bike. He said that a leaking, stuck set of forks is not enough reason to get rid of his FJR. I agree with him.
5. It must be said that when Pop crashed that bike several years ago that fork was damaged. The decision on whether or not to total the bike came down to the cost of that right fork tube. Dad wanted to keep that bike, he did not want a new one. That dealership worked with us to save the bike and fought with the insurance adjuster to do so. I have no way of knowing what damage was done to that tube or if that has any bearing on the situation.
1. I was not with Pop when he brought the bike in. They see this bike regularly. Other than the easy routine maintenance that I do, everything that is done to that FJR is done in that dealership. The oil and filters are bought there as well. I have no idea what they said or Pop said, I am sure that if the forks will not come apart and all new components are needed, there will be extra costs. We will see what happens. I am not going to get upset with them until I see what they are willing to do.
2. The right front fork seal has leaked before and been replaced before. I have used the SealMate on it three different times when it was weeping a little. In each case, it held for 3-4 months.
3. When I say the seal "blew out" what I mean is there was an almost unnoticeable weep. Then one morning there was a puddle of oil on the shop floor. The right fork, the brake calipers, the brake pads, the wheel and the tire were all saturated by the river of oil that ran out of the fork.
4. I have no idea what Pop and I will do about selling/trading/buying new bikes. Pop told me today that when he bought that bike, he intended that to be his last motorcycle. When I recommended he buy that FJR, I assured him it was a reliable, high mileage capable bike. He said that a leaking, stuck set of forks is not enough reason to get rid of his FJR. I agree with him.
5. It must be said that when Pop crashed that bike several years ago that fork was damaged. The decision on whether or not to total the bike came down to the cost of that right fork tube. Dad wanted to keep that bike, he did not want a new one. That dealership worked with us to save the bike and fought with the insurance adjuster to do so. I have no way of knowing what damage was done to that tube or if that has any bearing on the situation.
If "In each case it held for 3 or 4 months" then you were completely successful and the seal just managed to get dirty again. My onl;y suggestion would be to try doing something to help keep the inner fork tubes cleaner so the seals don't get spooged up. Or... when was the last time the oil was flushed and changed? Maybe the spooge is coming from the inside (a lot less likely)?
re: "puddle of oil on the floor", yes absolutely. It's amazing how much of that suspension fluid will come out of a marginally leaking fork seal overnight. Still no need to replace the seal. Clean it and move on.
re: possible of bent fork tube(s). If the inner tube was bent, especially with the three bushing stock 2nd gen design, the result would be increased binding of the bushings. There is not enough tolerance in those bushings (to keep them from wearing out prematurely) when things are straight. If they aren't straight, well... The seals have enough flexibility to accommodate a lot more tolerance than the bushings will allow while still doing their job of keeping the oil inside.
Just so that you know I am not blowing smoke up your skirt, I bent my fork tubes back when I hit a deer a few years back. I only realized that was true when I later did an oil flush/change in the forks and didn't get them back in the same orientation. The bike pulled pretty hard to one side. Once I discovered what had happened I just index marked the fork caps so I can now re-install them in the same direction that the Bambi bent them back at. Bike now steers straight with hands off the bars and the forks and seals work fine. But remember, I only have 2 bushings in my 1st gen forks. If it was a second gen I'm pretty sure I would have had to remove the middle bushings to allow the forks to slide OK.
re: "puddle of oil on the floor", yes absolutely. It's amazing how much of that suspension fluid will come out of a marginally leaking fork seal overnight. Still no need to replace the seal. Clean it and move on.
re: possible of bent fork tube(s). If the inner tube was bent, especially with the three bushing stock 2nd gen design, the result would be increased binding of the bushings. There is not enough tolerance in those bushings (to keep them from wearing out prematurely) when things are straight. If they aren't straight, well... The seals have enough flexibility to accommodate a lot more tolerance than the bushings will allow while still doing their job of keeping the oil inside.
Just so that you know I am not blowing smoke up your skirt, I bent my fork tubes back when I hit a deer a few years back. I only realized that was true when I later did an oil flush/change in the forks and didn't get them back in the same orientation. The bike pulled pretty hard to one side. Once I discovered what had happened I just index marked the fork caps so I can now re-install them in the same direction that the Bambi bent them back at. Bike now steers straight with hands off the bars and the forks and seals work fine. But remember, I only have 2 bushings in my 1st gen forks. If it was a second gen I'm pretty sure I would have had to remove the middle bushings to allow the forks to slide OK.
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Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Fred, I never think you are "blowing smoke up my skirt". Of course, I don't wear skirts and I don't like the fact that you are imagining me that way. You pervert.
I remember you posting about your bent forks and the bike pulling. In fact, I talked to Dad about it before the bike went to the shop. I do pay attention to what you say/type you know.
I am honestly less concerned about the forks not coming apart than about the perpetually leaking seal. The right side leaks, the left side does not. Why?
Pop is irritated because this issue has been here since before the "crash", that right seal leaked when the bike was still under warranty. I thought about telling him that he was overloading the suspension because of his weight but ran out of courage/came to my senses.
I remember you posting about your bent forks and the bike pulling. In fact, I talked to Dad about it before the bike went to the shop. I do pay attention to what you say/type you know.
I am honestly less concerned about the forks not coming apart than about the perpetually leaking seal. The right side leaks, the left side does not. Why?
Pop is irritated because this issue has been here since before the "crash", that right seal leaked when the bike was still under warranty. I thought about telling him that he was overloading the suspension because of his weight but ran out of courage/came to my senses.
Chuck35
Well-known member
I wonrer if a used right fork could be an option?
It sure sounds like yours has crash damage.
It sure sounds like yours has crash damage.
