Go Buy a REAL Motorcycle!!!

[Flint]

My P-89 is a pre-Brady and holds 15 115 grain hollow points. If I put two in the same hole does that make it an 18mm?

I bought wifey a Titanium .22 LR airweight that weighs 9 oz. pre ammo. We both have CCW's and have had them for years. I prefer to seriously wound the perp and not the elderly lady across the street?

Flint

 

[sparky3008]

Size doesn't matter if you now how to use it....
One of the 2-3 officer-involved shootings that have happened since I got on the job was a local cop called to a disorderly crowd with a guy firing a gun. The officer showed up, ordered the guy to drop his gun twice, the suspect failed to comply and the officer popped him one time, right in the 10-ring with a .38 wheel gun. This was right around the time everyone else in the area was moving to semi automatics at .40 and .45, becuase 9mm was 'not powerful enough'. The suspect was DRT.

Having said that though, this is what I carry with my CCDW permit.

My mom and step-dad both cops in Texas.

My step-dad has seen more than one .38 bounce off the windshield of a car. Don't recommend them.

The millitary went to the 9mm because teaching people to shoot the .45 was difficult. People who had never shot before found shooting the 9mm accuractly easier and we all know if you can't hit the target take down power means nothing.

My first hand gun at 13 was a .45 and I feel in love with it. I am very use to the recoil and am the opposite, I can't shoot a 9mm to save my life, literally. With a .45 however and my glock or springfield 1911 at 25yards I can take the 10 ring out with very few stragglers all day long.

Ballistics have been trying for decades to get the fast small 9mm to act like a .45 by expanding but nothing works like the real thing...

Wheel guns have many advantages in that they don't suffer from limp wristing, extraction or feed errors etc. And with speed clips can be loaded extremely fast.

My mom carried a 357 revolver most of her carrier.

When I meet first time gun buyers or shooters I always recommend a 357 revolver.

Easy to clean, don't have feed problems, can shoot cheap .38's for practice to learn and when ready to step up the .357 is awesome.

I have some friends that own .44's and the awesome 454 casuall, even know a few 500 S&W owners but the problems with these are they are expensive to shoot. Bullets are a fortune and we all know practice practice practice.

I reload my 45 long colts for my single action Ruger because they are so expensive.

Happy Shooting.

Oh, can you tell you fell on one of my passions

 

[RonC]

I don't know why you guys play with the little stuff. You won't see any tailgating here.

Ron

 

[JimLor]

Sparky - actually we went to the 9mm 'cause we had been using the 1911 for about a century and they were getting old. 9mm was/is the NATO standard so we, stupidly in my opinion, went to the dark side and are now re-learning what we discovered about "weaker" cartridges (the .38 in that case) during the Phillipine's Insurrection.

RonC - do you need a tail gunner for that or is it remotely operated?

 

[sparky3008]

Sparky - actually we went to the 9mm 'cause we had been using the 1911 for about a century and they were getting old. 9mm was/is the NATO standard so we, stupidly in my opinion, went to the dark side and are now re-learning what we discovered about "weaker" cartridges (the .38 in that case) during the Phillipine's Insurrection.
RonC - do you need a tail gunner for that or is it remotely operated?

Maybe this was the millitaries technical answer but many that I have spoken to from the Secret Service and Police forces it was as I said. People unable to shoot the .45 accurately, to much recoil.

 

[sparky3008]

On a side note, I have shot .44mag's with less recoil than the .45 simply because they are huge long barrelled heavy wheel guns.

 

[JimLor]

OK.

 

[Fallen Jim Rides again]

Sparky, my dad was a leo all his life. Street cop for 20+ years, then 15 years with the TABC. He also was a competition shooter all through the 60s and had the largest reloading shop for one man I've ever seen or heard of right up till his passing.

He prefered the .357 but never failed to quote a field study done in , I think , southern California on the 45 long Colt. In that study of police shootings, the perps body never failed to hold the bullet and the perp never left the scene after being shot by that cartridge. It just doesn't get better than that.

Right now, I am pretty happy with my 1991-a1 Colt. Of course, it was a gift from him.

At home, a 20 year old Mossberg P500 - 7 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buck. I don't even pretend to hunt with it.

 

[sparky3008]

On a side note, I have shot .44mag's with less recoil than the .45 simply because they are huge long barrelled heavy wheel guns.

It was easy for the Military to dismiss the .45 and replace it with the Baretta 9 when the design of 1911 they were using was the original mil spec that was loose and unaccurate at best. This should not have been a bad mark against the .45 just the old outdated gun they were delivering it from.

Heck you can still buy this spec today but I wouldn't recommend it unless you don't enjoy hitting the target. It is not an accurate gun. To make the 1911 accurate some design changes were in order and tighter tollerances to start.

Ever picked up a Baer, they are some of the most accurate out the box 1911 out but they are so tight that you can hardly even pull the slide back. Once they are broken in they loosen up a bit but not much.

The original mil spec was just not meant for accuracy.

So there were more reason for the change than just recoil but it is the one I like to mention most

 

[sparky3008]

Sparky, my dad was a leo all his life. Street cop for 20+ years, then 15 years with the TABC. He also was a competition shooter all through the 60s and had the largest reloading shop for one man I've ever seen or heard of right up till his passing.He prefered the .357 but never failed to quote a field study done in , I think , southern California on the 45 long Colt. In that study of police shootings, the perps body never failed to hold the bullet and the perp never left the scene after being shot by that cartridge. It just doesn't get better than that.

Right now, I am pretty happy with my 1991-a1 Colt. Of course, it was a gift from him.

At home, a 20 year old Mossberg P500 - 7 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buck. I don't even pretend to hunt with it.

The .45 long colt is an excellent round. While expensive to buy, reloads are easy.

It is a huge slow bullet and normally is just lead, no full metal jacket here.

My 14 year old sister shoots my 45 long colt dead accurate. The Ruger single action is a great gun.

My wife hates my glock 21 and my sprinfield 1911 .45 but loves the Ruger Vaquero...

 

[sparky3008]

Now if you want an even better Ruger .45 long colt go for the Redhawk.

The metal on that gun is strong enough that you can load the huge .45 long colt cartridge with enough powder to be even stronger than a .44mag and the Redhawk can stand up to it just fine.

Wouldn't recommend it on my Vaquero though

 

[JimLor]

Sparky - you're killin' me! I was a Combat Pistol Instructor and have put thousands of rounds throught the M1911 accurately and quickly and have taught other Marines to do the same. Yes, the M1911 isn't machined to tight tolerances - by design - reliability. Not accurate - at combat ranges you can easily, I say again, easily put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head if necessary. If you want to shoot targets, buy something else, if you don't, the M1911 is a great pistol.

My apologies to all for participating in this thread hijack! I love this stuff and couldn't help myself!

 

[sparky3008]

Sparky - you're killin' me! I was a Combat Pistol Instructor and have put thousands of rounds throught the M1911 accurately and quickly and have taught other Marines to do the same. Yes, the M1911 isn't machined to tight tolerances - by design - reliability. Not accurate - at combat ranges you can easily, I say again, easily put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head if necessary. If you want to shoot targets, buy something else, if you don't, the M1911 is a great pistol.
My apologies to all for participating in this thread hijack! I love this stuff and couldn't help myself!

You know this is an old long argument that is really silly.

It survived decades as a great gun no doubt.

Many will say it can shot 3" groups at 50yds (Although I don't know anyone except competion level shooters that can do it and with modifications)

I have had more problems with the 1911 style design than any other gun I have owned or shot. If they aren't exactly perfect they fail.

If the clip is just a little weak or the gun is not properly oiled they fail.

To me it is not nearly as reliable as my glock.

I need almost no oil (completely opposite of the 1911), It never fails to feed and doesn't suffer from clip issues like the 1911.

I love my 1911 but the designs old and you have to really like the gun and its history and takes a knowledgeable person to keep it up.

Sorry but I personally don't see how it made it in the military as long as it did.

As far as .45 goes the 1911 is not the best gun to shot it from.

If you are a purest then arguing all day won't change your opinion.

The .45 round itself though is my preference.

 

[Knifemaker]

Yes..seems we got a bit off topic here ..NMR

But the whole thread was fairly played out, so..

I have a Kimber 45 and love it:

https://tinyurl.com/4v3aa

(seen with pro point red dot sight)

I have owned everything from a .380 and up..they all got sold but I kept the 45.

KM

 

[fjr turbine]

Okay, I'll step in here.

Does all this talk about my lowly Ruger P85 mean I'm relegated to being

less than you foks because I don't carry a .45?

My lowly 9 mill just doesn't have the 'OOMPH' I need?

I saw an ad for A SMALL S&W .45 that did a 2.75" circle at, I THINK, 50 yards,

but it could have been 25...I honestly don't remember. It's a new gun, and I

was thinking of trading my Ruger in for this (when I can afford it).

Any comments on this? Anyone heard of this? Anyone fired one? I've been looking

all over for more info on this gun, and now I can't find anything.

I can't even find it on S&W's website. Maybe it's NOT a S&W, but I could have

sworn that it was.

TIA...

Jim

 

[sparky3008]

Here is a quote from a 1911 fanatic.

The police establishment is now properly devoted to the Glock, and this seems to be a good choice. The Glock is a difficult piece to shoot well, and its safety problem has been solved by issuing it with a trigger that only a gorilla would love, but it has been generally admitted that the police today cannot be trained to shoot well - not so much because of time and ammunition expenditures, but because of motivation. A man will do well only at things he enjoys doing, and today's police departments are reluctant to hire a recruit who enjoys shooting. Thus the Glock's "shootability" is irrelevant. The piece is relatively cheap, it is usually reliable, and the company's service policies are outstanding."

- Jeff Cooper, Cooper Commentaries, Volume V, Number 11.

Now as you can see I am trying to post both sides.

I can post huge amounts of stuff like this on both sides all day.

I love the double stack grip on the glock, many find this a negative and like the 1911.

I have big hands so to me it is more comfortable.

I lowered the trigger pull but I love the glock trigger but dry firing it feels like a toy, not so when you shoot it.

The one part I do see relevant is his comment about recruits and not wanting to shoot.

I would venture that most marines have to love to shoot and to be a good marksman this is a plus. For many leo's (my mother included) shooting is not their main thing for law enforcement...

Again, love my springfield and my glock but my glock is more reliable than my springfield. I am still suffering with misfeeds and am trying new clips to solve it.

 

[sparky3008]

Okay, I'll step in here.
Does all this talk about my lowly Ruger P85 mean I'm relegated to being

less than you foks because I don't carry a .45?

My lowly 9 mill just doesn't have the 'OOMPH' I need?

I saw an ad for A SMALL S&W .45 that did a 2.75" circle at, I THINK, 50 yards,

but it could have been 25...I honestly don't remember. It's a new gun, and I

was thinking of trading my Ruger in for this (when I can afford it).

Any comments on this? Anyone heard of this? Anyone fired one? I've been looking

all over for more info on this gun, and now I can't find anything.

I can't even find it on S&W's website. Maybe it's NOT a S&W, but I could have

sworn that it was.

TIA...

Jim

ONly to say I would doubt it said 50yds.

Most hand guns talk about 25 yds and if it is a short barrell I would doubt the 50 even more.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm. Shot what you are good at. I still say it is better to be able to hit the target accurately 1 than miss the target 7 times.

 

[exskibum]

My P-89 is a pre-Brady and holds 15 115 grain hollow points. If I put two in the same hole does that make it an 18mm?

Yep, they make a big hole. My Berettas, also pre-ban, are loaded with hollow points, and for all the talk here and elsewhere on the net that you need a cannon for self defense and that the 9mm** is the phallic equivalent of a 22 short, I sure wouldn't want to get hit by one, especially if it's loaded with hollowpoints or fragmenting bullets. I'll concede that pointing a .45 or .50 muzzle at someone is probably a little bit more intimidating to that person, but by the time you get to the point of pointing a gun at someone, you sure as hell better not be counting on intimidation.

So . . . it looks like the gun debate is almost the perfect microcosm for the issues raised in this REAL motorcycle thread. After all, most HDs have more displacement and are bigger than most ricers, and one can claim that they're American made (except for NUMEROUS imported parts) and American tradition, so THAT's why they're so much better and so much more "real". :lol:

And that kinda begs the question for me: why do we ride and own handguns (among other activities)? Because of what it says about us? Or do each of us have better reasons related to the activity itself? I'd bet that it's some mix of those two things for everyone, and that we succumb to the temptation of running others' choices down for the primary purpose of covering some of our own less noble reasons. I doubt any of us are exempt.

**BTW, I may be wrong, but I've long labored under the belief that a 9mm spits a .357 inch diameter bullet and has a .380 inch outside diameter shell casing -- same as a .380, a .38, a .357 and all the rest of the .38 calibers (supers, etc). I have never heard that a 9mm is a .37 caliber, but maybe that's the result of the conversion from metric to english measure?

 

[sparky3008]

My P-89 is a pre-Brady and holds 15 115 grain hollow points. If I put two in the same hole does that make it an 18mm?

Yep, they make a big hole. My Berettas, also pre-ban, are loaded with hollow points, and for all the talk here and elsewhere on the net that you need a cannon for self defense and that the 9mm** is the phallic equivalent of a 22 short, I sure wouldn't want to get hit by one, especially if it's loaded with hollowpoints or fragmenting bullets. I'll concede that pointing a .45 or .50 muzzle at someone is probably a little bit more intimidating to that person, but by the time you get to the point of pointing a gun at someone, you sure as hell better not be counting on intimidation.

So . . . it looks like the gun debate is almost the perfect microcosm for the issues raised in this REAL motorcycle thread. After all, most HDs have more displacement and are bigger than most ricers, and one can claim that they're American made (except for NUMEROUS imported parts) and American tradition, so THAT's why they're so much better and so much more "real". :lol:

And that kinda begs the question for me: why do we ride and own handguns (among other activities)? Because of what it says about us? Or do each of us have better reasons related to the activity itself? I'd bet that it's some mix of those two things for everyone, and that we succumb to the temptation of running others' choices down for the primary purpose of covering some of our own less noble reasons. I doubt any of us are exempt.

**BTW, I may be wrong, but I've long labored under the belief that a 9mm spits a .357 inch diameter bullet and has a .380 inch outside diameter shell casing -- same as a .380, a .38, a .357 and all the rest of the .38 calibers (supers, etc). I have never heard that a 9mm is a .37 caliber, but maybe that's the result of the conversion from metric to english measure?

I will only argue to say that more than one report has shown the 9mm to go straight through a victum without it creating enough of a shockwave to knock the victum down or in some cases for the victum to even feel it.

That is one thing about the .45 is that it is slow and the .45 long colt being unjacketed expands very quickly.

Another note about the MilSpec. Now everyone can go do their own research as I am sure I will piss a few off with this statement but it was design for ball and shots best with ball ammo. The farther you get away from this the more feed problems you have so hollow points are not recommended. Edited (I will say if you shoot hollow to pick ammo that keeps the bullet form as much like ball as possible and their is plenty of this type of ammo in hollow for the 1911.)

Edited to add( If I must pick on another design of the 1911 beside the cheap clips that they come with it is the extractor. Newer spring loaded designs are much better. Again, most people who buy these don't want to be gun smith's they want to shoot and this is something best left to a gun smith if you don't know how to adjust the extractor.

The Glock's breech is completely different. Its design is even better for less feed problems. The Glock will take hollow points just fine. Now I am sure you can do research and fine example's of this contributing to the glock blowing up but this is so rare I suggest you forget about it. Glock also doesn't recommend lead ammo as they say because of the different barrell design it will stripe the lead and eventually cause a build up that can cause the gun to explode. Now in a glock class I took one of the instructors actually brough one in that he said was from this. However my stepdad shoots lead through his all the time but does shoot a jacketed bullets down every once in a while to clear the barrell...

I agree I wouldn't want to get hit by a 9 either but have you ever considered the likely hood that whomever you are shooting has a high chance to be on drugs? If so you want the kinectic energy of the .45 or .357 .44 etc to knock them down that is where the debate of 9mm vs well everything else comes in...

 

[Knifemaker]

"Does all this talk about my lowly Ruger P85 mean I'm relegated to being

less than you foks because I don't carry a .45?"

Yes...lol. Well kind of..looking at the thread heading , all I can say is:

A .45 is The Harley

A 9mm is the FJR.

KM