Going to the Dark Side

[Fred W]

@FredW - Thanks for the additional info. It has been noticed that the CT seems to amplify a worn front tire, or a worn shock's negative traits. Oddly, despite the feelings of push or torque to the front end that you observed, we aren't seeing a trend of prematurely worn front tires. A couple of us have gotten 15k+ from a PR2 front with only the same type of wear as found on FJRs running a pair of PR2s. I usually see the same wear life and type on front tires with the CT on the rear as I have logged with a moto tire on the rear. That said, I do have a full GP suspension set up and do have a Superbrace on the front end. That may have a significant impact on tire wear up front? Or not?

Thanks, we'll see. I just ordered up a new PR2 front to be put on. I already do have a superbrace on the front end, but am running the stock shock w/ 58k miles on it in back. However, up until now at least, it has performed admirably well.

I took another (somewhat longer and more aggressively cornering) ride yesterday afternoon. I'm still not feeling any love for this rear tire and what it does to the steering effort in the front end. IMO it is extreme, but may be just with this particular tire / model. I'm pretty sure that this Yoko will be coming off after the Covered Bridges group ride this coming weekend, unless I have some kind of an epiphany and something suddenly feels drastically different. I know a few others have used one of these Yoko Avids successfully, but maybe they have different requirements? I'm a bad enough rider that I need all the handling help I can get.

I'm pretty pissed at myself now for not going with the "gold standard" Michelin Exalto AS for an additional $70. At least if I didn't like that tire I would have given it the best shot and completed the experiment and could move on with my motorcycle life. As it is now, I am unsure if an Exalto will be better enough. I'd also not have much trouble selling an Exalto to one of you CT guys as a take off.

Anyone want to buy a nearly new EnVigor? (hopefully I can get the thing off without cutting it)

 

[HotRodZilla]

Hey Fred, why not try a little more pressure? Maybe its too soft for your weight and suspension. Just a thought.

 

[juniorfjr]

@FredW - Thanks for the additional info. It has been noticed that the CT seems to amplify a worn front tire, or a worn shock's negative traits. Oddly, despite the feelings of push or torque to the front end that you observed, we aren't seeing a trend of prematurely worn front tires. A couple of us have gotten 15k+ from a PR2 front with only the same type of wear as found on FJRs running a pair of PR2s. I usually see the same wear life and type on front tires with the CT on the rear as I have logged with a moto tire on the rear. That said, I do have a full GP suspension set up and do have a Superbrace on the front end. That may have a significant impact on tire wear up front? Or not?

Thanks, we'll see. I just ordered up a new PR2 front to be put on. I already do have a superbrace on the front end, but am running the stock shock w/ 58k miles on it in back. However, up until now at least, it has performed admirably well.

I took another (somewhat longer and more aggressively cornering) ride yesterday afternoon. I'm still not feeling any love for this rear tire and what it does to the steering effort in the front end. IMO it is extreme, but may be just with this particular tire / model. I'm pretty sure that this Yoko will be coming off after the Covered Bridges group ride this coming weekend, unless I have some kind of an epiphany and something suddenly feels drastically different. I know a few others have used one of these Yoko Avids successfully, but maybe they have different requirements? I'm a bad enough rider that I need all the handling help I can get.

I'm pretty pissed at myself now for not going with the "gold standard" Michelin Exalto AS for an additional $70. At least if I didn't like that tire I would have given it the best shot and completed the experiment and could move on with my motorcycle life. As it is now, I am unsure if an Exalto will be better enough. I'd also not have much trouble selling an Exalto to one of you CT guys as a take off.

Anyone want to buy a nearly new EnVigor? (hopefully I can get the thing off without cutting it)

Don't give up without trying different pressures. Even with the Exalto, if it had too much air, you were really falling off of the edges. Good luck.

 

[garyahouse]

Oops pushed wrong button

 

[garyahouse]

Hey Fred

Maybe I can use that new credit card i was tellin' ya about (on the "cheap volt meter" thread) to buy you a new Exalto??? Sorry to hear about the frustrations yer havin with the EvVigor. Gotta be a bummer to try something new and then come to realize that cha gotta go though it all over again 'cause maybe ya made the wrong choice. But like you said, at least you can sell it and recoup some of your $$. Dad used to always say that it's so much easier when ya do things right the first time. Too bad it took me 30 years to figure that out... I was a slow learner, I guess. Anyway, don't know if this is a good idea, but what if ya dropped the press down to say 28 or so? I've read that a couple guys tried that on their CT's with no apparent ill effects, though I think I recall someone saying the steering effort felt lighter. Wish I lived a little closer, I could loan ya my Feej for the weekend so you could check out the Exalto w/o having to actually buy one. I just love it. Granted, the bike doesn't "fall" into the turns, but the effort is fairly light, and the trade off is worth it TO ME. Wish there was a better way to measure this stuff than to just offer my opinion.

Good luck my friend.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[Fred W]

Hey Fred, why not try a little more pressure? Maybe its too soft for your weight and suspension. Just a thought.

Don't give up without trying different pressures. Even with the Exalto, if it had too much air, you were really falling off of the edges. Good luck.

Oh no... Not throwing in the towel yet. As I said, if I have a breakthrough, well it would be great.

The way this is feeling, I think that I would have to reduce the air pressure to get the sidewalls to flex more, to have less effect on the steering. I'm at 32 psi now and will certainly run some 'speriments with a few other pressures before I call it quits.

However, one thing in the back of my mind that bothers me about running with too low of a pressure is that while installing this tire I did not have to seat the beads. Once the tire was spooned on they seated themselves with no air pressure. I'm a little worried that this happened because the bead diameter is on the loose side.

 

[Larry33319]

Fred, the way I arrived at 32 PSI for mine was quite simple to do. I borrowed an infrared temperature gun and took temps at 1" or so from the outside of the tread as well as the middle. After the tire is up to temp while riding, take the readings. When all three temps were fairly close, that was the pressure I went with. This should give you maximum contact patch.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Regardless of Freds outcome, I know he's going to give it a far shake.

Good luck Fred, I hope it works out.

 

[doug5551]

Fred,

I was the third person to put a car tire on my FJR. At first, I felt exactly how you described. It took 4 weeks and a few thousand miles, and then that feeling all went away, as I became used to the new inputs. There really was nothing wrong with the tire or bike, I was just hypersensitive to any changes or differences, exactly as you are.

That was on a Bridgestone Potenza, and now I am using an Exalto, which I agree is a major improvement.

Also, it is correct that a well worn PR2 front will make it more difficult to get used to the CT. When I got a new front tire, I noticed an immediate improvement in feeling.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I had issues when first using the Exalto too. Front tire was worn, and a new one was a huge improvement in turn-in. My current front (Z8) is quite worn, and I'm noticing issues again, new Z6 on the way..

Also, I think these CT's may need some break-in time, i.e., they are stiff until they have a few miles on them (500-1000???). My advice would be to run 28 psi until broken in, then work your way up to say 32. Break-in is less likely at high pressures, but you could try 38 as a comparison to what you're feeling now.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks for the ideas guys. I will be making as many tests and changes as possible before giving up. A new front tire for sure (because I need one anyway) and trying other rear pressures as well as trying to get the square tire broken down in. After all the effort it took to get this thing put on, I'm not really in too great of a rush to take it off if I don't have to.

 

[RossKean]

Just got the brake bar fabricated - stainless steel 5/32" (should be strong enough...). Couldn't find any 3/16" stock.

Exalto is ordered and should be here in a few days.

 

[user 213]

@Ross - 5/32" is fine in S/S. Others are running that too.

@FredW - I have run down as low as 21 psi in testing. What I noticed in testing is that at lower pressures, you will feel a weave a speed. What speed, depends on the tire. At 31 psi with the 019G, I didn't notice the weave until about 140 or so. At 21 psi, the weave was noticable at 75 mph or so. Lower pressures will improve turn in, and doesn't seem to increase wear, but stability is reduced at some point. Play with the pressures and see what feels right to you, paying attention to feeling the weave in the back, Vs the ease of turn in. There is a happy medium there. Also, I completely agree with the tire does break in over the first 1000-2k miles or so. Different tires have different constructions of side walls and take different periods to break in to the unique use of the motorcyle application.

Other than Doug555's zero pressure experience, I have not seen or noticed any issues with side wall damage. Even at 36,600 for take off on the 019G, it showed no signs of wear or damage on the inside. The tire is not, NOT going to come off the rim, even at zero pressure. I have had a few flats with the original 019G and it was rideable at speed, but you REALLY noticed the sloppiness as soon as you slowed down.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks again for the reply and encouragement, Eric.

So that's pretty kule. It's almost like having a run flat. At least in an emergency you know you could get safely off of a busy road to repair the thing.

And I will be emboldened with my pressure experiments. After all, there aren't all that many places to ton-up here in the northeast anyway, so what do I care about squirrelly-ness at 130+.

 

[user 213]

Thanks again for the reply and encouragement, Eric.

So that's pretty kule. It's almost like having a run flat. At least in an emergency you know you could get safely off of a busy road to repair the thing.

And I will be emboldened with my pressure experiments. After all, there aren't all that many places to ton-up here in the northeast anyway, so what do I care about squirrelly-ness at 130+.

Yes, with the ~650 lbs of the FJR, it is effectively a run flat tire. The 900 lb Goldwing really needs a true run-flat to get away with that, but we can totally cheat due to the width of the tire Vs the wheel. We are running the narrowest spec wheel for that size tire, and it's not coming off w/o some serious torque. I wouldn't try and do major cornering at speed on zero pressure, but going strait down the interstate, it wasn't bad at all. I really took notice making the corner as I left the off ramp though. Thankfully, I found an obvious nail and was able to ream, plug and re-inflate w/o issues.

edit - At 21 psi, running hard in the twisties, I honestly did not notice any change in feel at ~65-75 mph. When I got home and discovered I was low, (screw in the tire), A close examination of the tire did reveal increased wear on the corner edges, but no other issues or pronounced problems with the tire.

 

[FJRONAMISSION]

Hey Fred, why not try a little more pressure? Maybe its too soft for your weight and suspension. Just a thought.

Don't give up without trying different pressures. Even with the Exalto, if it had too much air, you were really falling off of the edges. Good luck.

Oh no... Not throwing in the towel yet. As I said, if I have a breakthrough, well it would be great.

The way this is feeling, I think that I would have to reduce the air pressure to get the sidewalls to flex more, to have less effect on the steering. I'm at 32 psi now and will certainly run some 'speriments with a few other pressures before I call it quits.

However, one thing in the back of my mind that bothers me about running with too low of a pressure is that while installing this tire I did not have to seat the beads. Once the tire was spooned on they seated themselves with no air pressure. I'm a little worried that this happened because the bead diameter is on the loose side.

********** 30 pounds is perfect for Exalto............ :clapping:

 

[wfooshee]

As I stated somewhere earlier in this cluster-of-a-thread, I got home from work one day thinking the bike felt funny, but a visual inspection found nothing amiss. With a gauge I found the rear tire low enough to not register, effectively flat.

I'm thinking somebody at work was having a bit of fun, if you want to call it that, because I looked carefully and found nothing in the tire, then aired it up and brushed a weak dishwasher solution all over it to look for bubbles, and found none. It needed no repair and has not run low since (several months now) so some asshat being "funny" is all I can think of as a cause.

The bike gave no sign that the tire was actually flat, it rode just fine, but with a little more effort turning.

 

[phroenips]

At 31 psi with the 019G, I didn't notice the weave until about 140 or so. At 21 psi, the weave was noticable at 75 mph or so.

Tested on a closed course track, I'm sure.

 

[FJRay]

At 31 psi with the 019G, I didn't notice the weave until about 140 or so. At 21 psi, the weave was noticable at 75 mph or so.

Tested on a closed course track, I'm sure.

That's what Nevada is for.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

Would this be considered a darksider?? :huh: