Going to the Dark Side

[odot]

I suspect that that penny is not calibrated.....and suspicion leads to observance......which leads to reporting.

suspect, observe, report......subversion is everywhere.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Lincoln let his hair grow longer at times and then would get it cut very short. Even had to wear a Tophat to accomodate his hair when it was at its longest.

The penny Brodie used has the image of Abe when he just had his hair cut. Definately out of calibration......

 

[RaYzerman19]

If any of you boyz needs a brand new Exalto, and as long as you can wait until my next US trip to ship it, $80 will get it to your door.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Pterodactyl posted: Lincoln let his hair grow longer at times and then would get it cut very short. Even had to wear a Tophat to accomodate his hair when it was at its longest.

The penny Brodie used has the image of Abe when he just had his hair cut. Definately out of calibration......

Are you saying the revered President Abraham Lincoln had hair like Marge Simpson? That's, like, un-American or something.

Isn't it? Or something?

 

[rbentnail]

If any of you boyz needs a brand new Exalto, and as long as you can wait until my next US trip to ship it, $80 will get it to your door.

PM sent.

 

[BigOgre]

Examining the "Dark Side" on page 48 of the Fall/Winter 2015 Iron Butt Magazine. Nice lead-off picture too.

 

[Danny G]

At least now you don't need a kick stand.

 

[user 213]

Didn't read the whole thread, did you?

 

[Brodie]

BigOgre wrote:
Examining the "Dark Side" on page 48 of the Fall/Winter 2015 Iron Butt Magazine. Nice lead-off picture too.

It's interesting to note in the referenced article that the illustration given of the motorcycle tire bead profile vs. the automotive tire bead profile fitted in the motorcycle rim, does not take into consideration the soft flexible nature of rubber, and the angle of the bead due to the range of rim widths for that given tire.

The illustration below is from that article.

Note that the black filled in profile is the tire. The upper picture shows a motorcycle bead having an exact fit into the rim as designed. The lower picture shows an automotive tire riding on the bead hump of the rim keeping it from nesting properly in the seat area. This cookie cutter illustration fails to show the deflection that takes place at that corner due to rubber's soft nature. It also fails to show, at least in the case of our application, the angle of the sidewall to rim caused by the width of the tire. The 205/50 size tires we run on the FJR is rated for a 5 1/2 to 7 1/2 inch rim. Our rims are at the minimum width for these tires which causes the tire to squeeze narrower to fit within the rim. This helps force the outer corner of the tire bead to nestle into the corner radius of the rim, and the side profile of the bead to ride further up the side of the bead seat area.

I have run 4 automotive tires now on my 3 FJRs, and I mounted and balanced all of them myself. My method is to use a sheet of plywood on the garage floor, and use tire spoons with rim protectors. I cannot use my NoMar tire machine, because of the large rim clamps which do not accommodate the extra wide tire profile of the automotive tire; remember, we have to modify the brake strut to gain the necessary clearance to run this set up.

During the times my automotive tires were mounted, I've occasionally needed to remove them to replace my TPMS sensor mounted inside the tire and /or swapping the tire over to the new bike's rim. As always, I scrub the rim seat area clean of all residue with a kitchen scouring pad and soap before mounting/remounting the tire. I see first hand the contact pattern the tire has with the rim. The tight radius in the outer rim bead seat area does have evidence of a very slight gap, as the tire bead radius is indeed larger, and the wire within the bead isn't tight enough to force all of the rubber to fill this area. However, it is tight enough to force the bead to sit in the floor of the bead seat proper. There is also a very slight gap at the base of the hump where the rubber is forced to bridge this tight radius. The inner corner of the tire bead is forced up the center of this hump, which in my mind, causes a better chance of an air tight fit. My tires show no more air loss than any of the motorcycle tires I ran previous to this 'Car Tire Experiment' we are taking part of.

Please note that the motorcycle tires I have run on my first FJR AE (pictured in my avatar above) were the Avon Storm, the Michelin PR2, The Dunlop RoadSmart, and the OEM Metzler; I might have even run a Pirelli, off hand I don't remember that far back. Note that these are all premium tires, which command a premium price. All told these tires took me to about 75,000 miles on that bike. The automotive tires I have run since are the Bridgestone 019 Grid, 2 Michelin Pilot Exaltos, and the General G-Max AS-03. All 3 of the automotive tires are the 205/50 specification. I have since clocked over 120,000 miles on these automotive tires. When I was running the motorcycle tires I was consistently getting 4 - 5,000 miles on them before they were worn out in the center - I have a heavy throttle hand. Every 7 weeks I was looking to replace a tire, something had to change. These automotive tires are giving me approx. 36,000 miles each, and I am well pleased!

In my humble opinion, as far as the fitment of these tires on the 5 1/2 width rim found on the back of our current Yamaha FJR platform, they work exceptionally well. In my own personal experience of ownership, the altered handling characteristics are well within the safe operational range for the typical rider. Granted, the bike is capable of sustained elevated speeds in the 130 - 140 mph range, but who does that on a regular basis - without getting multiple performance awards? Also note that these tires are known to affect the handling adversely at these speeds - it gets a bit squirrelly, which seems to put a cap on the speeds run. If you want to run these speeds, by all means mount a properly speed rated motorcycle tire to this bike and enjoy!

As always, Your Mileage May Vary

Brodie

 

[Brodie]

One more thing about the handling characteristics of these automotive rear tires...

They tend to have a self righting affect relative to the camber of the road surface. A highly crowned road will tend to throw the bike off the straight and narrow, and will force the rider to compensate. At highway speeds all that is needed is to slide your tush over a bit to add ballast off center and counteract the lean. At slow speeds this isn't always do-able.

I sometimes ride with the Patriot Guard, and invariably it requires side by side close formation riding on city streets with a large number of customized V-twins. These owners, great people I might add, tend to be a bit over protective of their bikes - quite rightly so. Here I am showing up with my oversize pig of a rice rocket, at times with a well worn deposit of road patina showing many (s)miles between washings (dirt). Since it is the Advanced Edition FJR, I don't really need my left hand to drive the thing, so I hold on to a 3x5 American flag when riding. Occasionally the procession heads onto the freeway unexpectedly, and I've learned to brace the flag pole against my shoulder at speed. It can get kind of wild at times

My biggest challenge is when I am on the right side and we are directed onto a side street, up hill, with deep off camber concrete gutters. Talk about planning your ride, there is a definite technique to one hand ride this beast around that corner with that damn square profile rear tire, while the left hand is occupied with that flag pole - and not scare the rider immediately to my left on his $$$ custom baby.

These things are supposed to be fun - aren't they?

Brodie

 

[user 213]

Nice posts Brodie. Something to keep in mind about the IBA magazine article, it was written because they wanted a Darkside article written by an engineer. Tom Austin, the author, (who I know personally pretty well and have socialized with), has run DS on a Wing, and felt that for the weight/temp issues a fully loaded wing suffers from this was pretty much a necessity. However, he still had issues with CT use on lighter bikes like the FJR, feeling that there were safety issues, if rather un-specified ones. He asked me to read the article before it went to the magazine and I did. I felt he did a reasonable job in outlining the issues and nothing was technically incorrect. As we know, this is something you can't convince someone about if they are not open to actually trying it themselves.

I agree with the article that the rim bead profiles are different, but I also agree with your stated observations too, and that the strength of the bead and ability of the rubber to conform pretty much make it moot, in our application on the FJR. I didn't want to press that point with Tom on his article because it was not specifically aimed at the FJR, but a more generic comparison of moto Vs car wheels and tires. In other applications, the CT might not be as well suited as it has proven to be on the FJR.

That is the strength of forums. We have a body of experience and direct knowledge gained from first hand experience and use that is specific to the FJR. We don't need to compare apples to oranges, the info here is directly applicable to the FJR.

And hey, mount a flag holder, ya dork!

Advanced Edition doesn't mean mentally handicapped. That's a pretty big flag to be hanging on to at speed. It would cause a hell of a fuss if it slipped out of your hand and flew into the riders behind you.

 

[Brodie]

Eric

I agree, it is a good article written by an Engineer and targeted to a large diverse crowd with an overabundance of variables in the hardware, both in rides, rims, and tire choices.

When you started this experiment way back in 2008, you did it with the motivation for making ownership of this FJR platform a bit more affordable. Fortunately for all of us the variables were complementary and gave favorable results. That is not always guaranteed, hence Engineer Tom Austin's suspicions and unease with the concept. I believe if he looks deeper into the data that these user forums offer - the empirical evidence gained with experience, he would tend to feel a bit more at ease with the concept - at least where it has been proven successful.

In the aviation world, there is the fringe community called the Experimental Aircraft Association. I am not a part of it, I have no intimate knowledge with it, however I can see that they would be on the leading edge of what might be prudent at times, but have combined their knowledge and shared what works, as well as what doesn't. Kind of like what we have here.

Perhaps we need to augment the Darksider logo with the EXPERIMENTAL tag line.

Brodie

 

[DaJuice]

I have run 4 automotive tires now on my 3 FJRs, and I mounted and balanced all of them myself. My method is to use a sheet of plywood on the garage floor, and use tire spoons with rim protectors. I cannot use my NoMar tire machine, because of the large rim clamps which do not accommodate the extra wide tire profile of the automotive tire; remember, we have to modify the brake strut to gain the necessary clearance to run this set up.

Hey Brodie, I used my No-Mar with the posi-clamps for car tires on the FJR. It is the same clamps used for dirtbike and dual sport tires... I had them anyway so I tried 'em

 

[Brodie]

I'm too cheap, and I'm getting pretty good with the spoons.

Thanks

Brodie

 

[garyahouse]

Perhaps we need to augment the Darksider logo with the EXPERIMENTAL tag line.
Brodie

EDT DDR

Experimental DarkTimers

DREAM IT

DO IT

RIDE IT

 

[Todd Witte]

Hello

after taking a 13 year break since the 2003 IBR, I'm trying to get back into the saddle. One thing I always hated dealing with during the Buttlite and IBR rallies was changing tires. Anyway, i see that you guys are using car tires now. I called the company i buy my fleet tires from and they said the Michelin Exalto is obsolete by a few years ( my dealer suggested a michelin premier a/s). So, what recommendations on which tire to use? I want to experiment with it this summer before heading to the "Dance" next year. Also- any suggestions ex-don't exceed xxx, don't inflate over xx,

Regards

Todd

York, PA

ps- Gary nice talking with you last night, if you're reading this you know i found the website and page.

 

[Chuck35]

Hello after taking a 13 year break since the 2003 IBR, I'm trying to get back into the saddle. One thing I always hated dealing with during the Buttlite and IBR rallies was changing tires. Anyway, i see that you guys are using car tires now. I called the company i buy my fleet tires from and they said the Michelin Exalto is obsolete by a few years ( my dealer suggested a michelin premier a/s). So, what recommendations on which tire to use? I want to experiment with it this summer before heading to the "Dance" next year. Also- any suggestions ex-don't exceed xxx, don't inflate over xx,

Regards

Todd

York, PA

ps- Gary nice talking with you last night, if you're reading this you know i found the website and page.

I used a couple of the Michelin Pilot A/S and found them to wear well and stick to the road in all conditions. There were a battle to install and remove and required a good bit of effort to initiate a turn. I am currently on my second General Gmax AS-03. The Gmax (as others before me here have said) feels so close to a bike tire on the road the only differences you will notice are the price and longevity. I get about 15k miles out of the PR4 on the front and 30K out of the Gmax. I run 42 psi front and 30 - 32 psi rear (checked at room temp)

See you in Minneapolis.

 

[rbentnail]

Hello after taking a 13 year break since the 2003 IBR, I'm trying to get back into the saddle. One thing I always hated dealing with during the Buttlite and IBR rallies was changing tires. Anyway, i see that you guys are using car tires now. I called the company i buy my fleet tires from and they said the Michelin Exalto is obsolete by a few years ( my dealer suggested a michelin premier a/s). So, what recommendations on which tire to use? I want to experiment with it this summer before heading to the "Dance" next year. Also- any suggestions ex-don't exceed xxx, don't inflate over xx,

Regards

Todd

York, PA

ps- Gary nice talking with you last night, if you're reading this you know i found the website and page.

The Gmax (as others before me here have said) feels so close to a bike tire on the road the only differences you will notice are the price and longevity. I get about 15k miles out of the PR4 on the front and 30K out of the Gmax. I run 42 psi front and 30 - 32 psi rear (checked at room temp)

See you in Minneapolis.

+1 on the G-Max AS-03, about 30K. I run mine 33-35 psi. Handling changes are minimal and with it's wicked tread pattern it does great in the wet.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/141913-going-to-the-dark-side/page-166?do=findComment&comment=1074488 plus a few posts following that one in retrospect summarize it nicely.

So Todd in York, PA: I'm gonna try something else soon, here's the deal. My G-Max will be coming off soon, 2 maybe 3 weeks from now. It's got maybe 10K left in it. For the cost of shipping +$10 (it's 40 miles to the nearest shipping center

) I'll send you the tire and a piece of flat bar like I used so you can make & replace your rear brake stay square tubing. For minimal cost you can try it out: keep it if you want, forward it to someone else or trash it if you don't. PM if you'd like.

 

[user 213]

Hi #205, welcome to the forum and congrats on getting in for the IBR again.

It will be a bit different than your last time.

There is a Darkside FAQ on the forum too, which will answer a lot of your questions. At this point most of the FJRs running in the dance are on CTs and no one has had tire issues. In '15 they were still only requiring TPMS for run flat CTs, but make sure you double check the '17 rules when you get them. FWIW, a run flat is not a good choice on the FJR, it's just not heavy enough to make it handle well. Softer sidewall tires flex better for our needs and that translates to smoother turn in with less effort. There are several tires old and current shown in the FAQ that have been used.

Typically I look for an all season tire that has a symmetrical tread design, a 400+ tread wear rating and as rounded a shoulder as possible. Many "touring" car tires have very square edge shoulders to prolong tread life. These are less desirable in that the turn in effort is greater. As Chuck says, the General Gmax AS-03 has become a popular choice. It has softer side walls because it's an ultra high performance all season tire, but still carries a 480 tread wear rating which translates to respectable tread life in our application.

Almost universally, the collective Darksiders have found tire pressures work best between 29-33 psi. Some variation by tire choice and rider preference in feel. At speeds over FJR nominal the CT tends to get a light weave. That won't be an issue for you during the dance with the current Spot tracking and clamp down on excessive speeds. If you experience some weave at lower speeds, it's usually an indication that for that tire and your load, you need a bit more pressure, so add a pound at a time to find your personal sweet spot.

Note that just like a moto tire when you lose pressure due to a puncture, you'll start to get a noticeable weave in the back. The CT is more resistant to puctures, but I have gotten them and plugged them just like any other tubeless radial tire with a sticky string kit. It does take a bit more force to get the reamer and insert tool into/thru the tire. I once used a rock to get the reamer started.

Here is a link to the FAQ - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=124275

Please feel free to ask questions if you have them.

Eric V (#488)

 

[Brodie]

Hello after taking a 13 year break since the 2003 IBR, I'm trying to get back into the saddle. One thing I always hated dealing with during the Buttlite and IBR rallies was changing tires. Anyway, i see that you guys are using car tires now. I called the company i buy my fleet tires from and they said the Michelin Exalto is obsolete by a few years ( my dealer suggested a michelin premier a/s). So, what recommendations on which tire to use? I want to experiment with it this summer before heading to the "Dance" next year. Also- any suggestions ex-don't exceed xxx, don't inflate over xx,

Regards

Todd

York, PA

ps- Gary nice talking with you last night, if you're reading this you know i found the website and page.

Todd

When I was ready for my 4th car tire purchase back in 2014 I was faced with the dilemma of finding one of the few Exaltos available, or strike out on the search for what may be the next favorite for this collection of crazies on two wheels. I had some time on my hands due to my foot surgery, so I re-read this thread from the beginning. It took me a good two weeks to get through it ( all 185 pages

). I posted some history, and asked the question in essence - what will be the next wondertire for the FJR Darksiders.

Some history on the Exalto

A few weeks later, after some more research I came up with a tire that seemed to fit the bill. The General Tire G-Max. Several other owners had already mounted it and had favorable impressions, so I am not the first. Here are my initial impressions on the G-Max. Since then I am approaching 30 K on the tire and am well pleased with it, I think it is quite comparable with the much vaunted Exalto.

I'm sure there are several other tires which will perform just as well, and I'm sure our darksiders will chime in on this, just keep in mind that tires are consumable items, if you don't like the one you're currently running, twist the throttle hard and wear it out quick, and try another one.

These bikes are supposed to be fun !

Brodie