Going to the Dark Side

[phroenips]

Geez! 80 pages...will this thread ever die! :jester:

Geez 80 pages and still you read and cry about it like a baby.

I know, I was mocking those apparently unable to not click a link

 

[user 213]

Thanks FredW, I appreciate you're input and excellent info! :good:

If I understand it correctly, this should mean that both Gens will benefit from a CT's larger diameter, in that it will tend to place the speedo closer to actual. All FJRs read slightly faster than actual with the std moto tire size.

If the chosen CT is larger in circumference, then yes. And, as I believe we have previously discussed in the past, it should also cause the odometer to read lower than actual. The odometer uses the same speed signals and is generally pretty darn close to correct with the stock tire size.

On my '04, the odo has improved accuracy, along with the speedo accuracy. I expected to experience what you describe, one getting better with the larger dia, the other becoming less so, but that didn't happen. Both got more accurate. This has been GPS verified multiple times on my bike, by my and other's GPS units.

I'm curious if the Gen II will suffer a loss of accuracy on the odo while the speedo becomes closer to actual. My suspicion is that the odo's are not quite as close as we tend to think they are.

 

[dbx]

The FJR has a speed sensor off the back of the engine on Gen I bikes. I think that means a trans pick up. FredW, you watching out there? Do you remember how the bikes get speed to the gauge cluster? Just ECU for the Gen II?

As you said, the 1st Gens have a dedicated speed sensor on the drive output after the transmission. 2nd Gens use a signal from the ABS ECU derived from the ABS tone ring (wheel sensor) on the rear wheel. Why they did not use the front wheel is a mystery, since that would actually be a better representation of actual distance (no slip under acceleration) but it is the rear wheel sensor that the engineers chose.

The next time you're going down the road with the front wheel lofted in the air for miles at a time and your indicated speed hasn't dropped to zero, you'll be glad they chose the rear wheel.

Yeah, I don't do that either.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks FredW, I appreciate you're input and excellent info! :good:

If I understand it correctly, this should mean that both Gens will benefit from a CT's larger diameter, in that it will tend to place the speedo closer to actual. All FJRs read slightly faster than actual with the std moto tire size.

If the chosen CT is larger in circumference, then yes. And, as I believe we have previously discussed in the past, it should also cause the odometer to read lower than actual. The odometer uses the same speed signals and is generally pretty darn close to correct with the stock tire size.

On my '04, the odo has improved accuracy, along with the speedo accuracy. I expected to experience what you describe, one getting better with the larger dia, the other becoming less so, but that didn't happen. Both got more accurate. This has been GPS verified multiple times on my bike, by my and other's GPS units.

I'm curious if the Gen II will suffer a loss of accuracy on the odo while the speedo becomes closer to actual. My suspicion is that the odo's are not quite as close as we tend to think they are.

What was your odometer's accuracy prior to the CT? For it to have improved it would have had to been reporting high (just like the speedo) on the stock moto tire. I would think that would be a problem for Yamaha since they measure their warranty coverage based on the odometer

Have you ever checked it on a measured mile or other statute measurement? I only ask because GPS distance can come up short if there are a lot of corners in the course.

 

[user 213]

What was your odometer's accuracy prior to the CT? For it to have improved it would have had to been reporting high (just like the speedo) on the stock moto tire. I would think that would be a problem for Yamaha since they measure their warranty coverage based on the odometer

Have you ever checked it on a measured mile or other statute measurement? I only ask because GPS distance can come up short if there are a lot of corners in the course.

My odo was reading high before. I originally noticed it reading high when I would compare it to the 5 mile stretches of measured miles they have on the Interstate now and then, as well as my trip mileage being off from computer mapping data. IMHO, Yamaha is not so worried about you going out of warranty sooner. Many of the GPS comparisons were for rally odo checks where there are minimal turns during the course, often just a turn around during an out and back run.

 

[Fred W]

The FJR has a speed sensor off the back of the engine on Gen I bikes. I think that means a trans pick up. FredW, you watching out there? Do you remember how the bikes get speed to the gauge cluster? Just ECU for the Gen II?

As you said, the 1st Gens have a dedicated speed sensor on the drive output after the transmission. 2nd Gens use a signal from the ABS ECU derived from the ABS tone ring (wheel sensor) on the rear wheel. Why they did not use the front wheel is a mystery, since that would actually be a better representation of actual distance (no slip under acceleration) but it is the rear wheel sensor that the engineers chose.

The next time you're going down the road with the front wheel lofted in the air for miles at a time and your indicated speed hasn't dropped to zero, you'll be glad they chose the rear wheel.

Yeah, I don't do that either.

Of course not. You have a bike with an automatic transmission and a shaft drive!!

The flip side would be the guys racking up all those extra miles when they do burn-outs...

My odo was reading high before. I originally noticed it reading high when I would compare it to the 5 mile stretches of measured miles they have on the Interstate now and then, as well as my trip mileage being off from computer mapping data. IMHO, Yamaha is not so worried about you going out of warranty sooner. Many of the GPS comparisons were for rally odo checks where there are minimal turns during the course, often just a turn around during an out and back run.

I'll have recheck mine and pay close attention to the possibility. I thought it was pretty good when I checked it previously, but not being a rally hound mybe I'm not being critical enough.

 

[noland]

I've been up since 3am EST this morning and read this thread from page 73. I now know that I will probably have to go back and read the whole thing. There seems to be some concensus on the CT/Darkside thing. Of course I followed all the links - especially the videos - Great Job! But I must say following those links lead me to this:


It is on You Tube and titled "Dark Side front tire". (Typed as presented on You Tube). It is a link to a "darksider" who apparently has taken the darkside to the leading edge - literally. Now mounting the rear MC tire on the front rim! Read his caption below his video. Claims that this is the "new darkside".

WTF? I just now found this thread....

Has anyone heard of this? Tried this?

81 pages......Wow....And now this....

 

[Bungie]

10,000 mile trip on a car tire review:

Qualifier - This is my opinion, ya know, take it for what its worth. I'm not interested one whit in your rebuttals pointing out the tire, the pressure or the alignment of the planets. It's a Cooper Zeon 205/50VR-17 run at 28lbs of pressure.

The negatives:

After installing it I put about 500 miles on the tire before the trip started just to get used to it. My initial impressions were that it sucked. My bike, even in moderate corners handled like a dump truck. But I did get 'used' to it. Not that its right, just that I adjusted my riding style to it.

The bike on uneven pavement at low speeds (walking) is flat out dangerous. In the first week I almost dropped it at least 4 times. Keep in mind I pride myself on my ability to ride a bike very slowly. I've done the motor officer pylon course at the local OPP station and even THEY said I handle the big girl extremely well. The tire levers the bike over as soon as it hits any kind of pavement thats not perfectly flat or a large stone.

You have to muscle the bike over in any type of tighter corners, and, you must maintain that pressure on the bar to hold it there. Same for higher speed moderate corners like freeway ramps. No joy.

Something that hasn't been mentioned (or at least I didn't see it) in this thread is the tendency for the front tire to fight the back. I normally get 12 - 15 thousand miles out of a front PR2. On this trip my front is near toast at 10K - and that was 98% slab. You can FEEL the front tire scrubbing in any kind of moderate corner. I bet if you live in any kind of terrain where turning corners your 'cost savings' is offset by the increased wear on the FRONT.

In the twisties the bike becomes almost dangerous. Constantly wanting to run wide, when I'm riding below a normal pace I have to COMMIT to a corner. One of the greatest joys for me in a riding a motorcycle is the way it can carve a corner. With the car tire, that feeling is gone. It understeers so you have to be 'present' and DRIVE the bike around a corner.

The postives:

The bike tracks unbelievably straight. I rode 22 miles across South Dakota with no hands. Nice to just sit back and take a break.

The tire sticks like glue. Hey, it's a softer compound than a bike tire. Makes sense. It puts more rubber down on the road even in a corner. This was visually confirmed when Tom and Rob were riding near identical tracks in the rain. It's interesting to note that Rob had his bike leaned over noticably farther (5-10 degrees) than Tom did, even though he was on the outside track and should've have exhibited LESS lean).

The novelty. People see it and can't believe it. It's fun to tell them its a car tire.

Wrap up:

I'll keep the tire in case I do another 5000+ ride on the slab. Otherwise I'm back to a bike tire. It can't come off soon enough. The loss of handling and its dangerous slow speed traits make this just a novelty for me.

 

[beemerdons]

Bungie, thank you for your 10K mile car tire experience report; very helpful. But, I was shocked. I thought putting a car tire on your FJR was a lot like joining the Hell's Angel's, Vagos or Banditos: Once you joined a 1% M/C organization you were never allowed to leave, at least leave alive!!

Hombre, you went through a lot as a CT "Outlaw"! Drinking cat's blood, wife swapping, Satanic rituals, obscene/garish tattoos and sleeping with Bustanut joker!!!

 

[RaYzerman19]

Bungie, thanks for the review... wondering if your tire pressure was up and if the Cooper is perhaps not the best one for the job..... I think I'll try the Michelin with the more rounded profile.

 

[Bungie]

Bungie, thanks for the review... wondering if your tire pressure was up and if the Cooper is perhaps not the best one for the job..... I think I'll try the Michelin with the more rounded profile.

Like I said, take it for what its worth. Any difference between sectional profiles is going to be rather minute. If your deal is cranking out miles on the slab, the CT is the way to go. It's not mine and the loss of the enjoyment I got out of my bike cannot hope to be offset by any cost savings.

I still can't believe I was one handing my bike through the Dragon with that excuse for a tire on the back. Hindsight says that was pretty stupid, but it was fun at the time.

 

[user 213]

Now mounting the rear MC tire on the front rim! Read his caption below his video. Claims that this is the "new darkside".

WTF? I just now found this thread....

Has anyone heard of this? Tried this?

Mounting a rear tire on the front, running backwards so the tread pattern is going the correct way for a front tire, is called "Double Darksiding" and is strictly a GoldWing tactic, as near as I can tell. The rear tire they use is in nearly the same size as their front, but has much more tread depth and they do this for the same reasons we go DS on the rear, longevity. Wing guys have been doing this for a while now. I looked at trying this on the FJR and it's been briefly mentioned in this thread before, IIRC. I could not find a rear tire close enough in size that I wanted to try it.

@Bungie - A good review on the Cooper Zeon. I completely agree. Thanks for taking the time to share it. If you read the first pages of this thread you will see that is the tire I used as a test fitment tire, and it's totally inappropriate for our use, (as I said then). That is the only tire I felt the front tire "fighting back", as you put it. That's a more descriptive way of putting it than I used in the early posts about that tire in slow speed parking lot maneuvers. No other tire I've tried has felt that way. It sucks moist *** because the sidewalls are so stiff. It just can't flex enough to allow smooth turn in and has a pretty square profile.

In regards to your statement:

Any difference between sectional profiles is going to be rather minute.

You are mistaken. I'm not slamming you, merely pointing out that you have not actually tired other tires yet. I have actually ridden thousands of miles on different CTs and the profile of the tire can make a significant difference in turn in effort.

I completely respect your decision to return to a moto tire. That's what's great about this stuff, we get to decide what we like and change our bikes to suit our individual needs. As to the front tire wear, I haven't noticed faster wear, but was originally wondering about that possibility. In long term use it hasn't occurred, for me. I get pretty much the same. I do wonder if your playing on the Dragon may have contributed to your front tire wear just a bit?

At some point, if you get the chance, ride a FJR with a different CT than the Cooper and you may be surprised. Especially the Michelin Exalto, Toyo Extensa or possibly the Dunlop Direzza.

 

[juniorfjr]

I've got probably 2500 miles on the Exalto A/S and have had nothing but positive feedback. It did take a little time to get used to the difference, cured that by lowering the pressure to 28 psl, but now the bike feels perfectly natural.

I've just returned from lunch and was thinking about Bungie's experience, so I sought out a stretch that is notorious for bad grooves and other abnormalities. There was a little of the front fighting the back, but it felt like the front finding the grooves. I would like to try the other tire to see the difference.

 

[Kirrilian]

Ok, I have mine on now and made my own brake stay out of flat bar aluminum. Here is a pic of the tire: https://ow.ly/i/4fz3/original

It is currently at 35psi and I can say that I will be letting some air out because I feel some of the same stuff that Bungie was talking about. I'm going on a couple rides this weekend and I'll try it at 30 to see if it rides different.

I have some of the flat bar aluminum left over, if someone is interested in one of the modified brake stays I have enough to make 2-3 more.

 

[palerider]

Ok, I have mine on now and made my own brake stay out of flat bar aluminum. Here is a pic of the tire: https://ow.ly/i/4fz3/original

It is currently at 35psi and I can say that I will be letting some air out because I feel some of the same stuff that Bungie was talking about. I'm going on a couple rides this weekend and I'll try it at 30 to see if it rides different.

I have some of the flat bar aluminum left over, if someone is interested in one of the modified brake stays I have enough to make 2-3 more.

I'm interested in one How much do you want to sell it for?

GaryK

 

[mattster31]

Bungie, thanks for the review... wondering if your tire pressure was up and if the Cooper is perhaps not the best one for the job..... I think I'll try the Michelin with the more rounded profile.

Like I said, take it for what its worth. Any difference between sectional profiles is going to be rather minute. If your deal is cranking out miles on the slab, the CT is the way to go. It's not mine and the loss of the enjoyment I got out of my bike cannot hope to be offset by any cost savings.

I still can't believe I was one handing my bike through the Dragon with that excuse for a tire on the back. Hindsight says that was pretty stupid, but it was fun at the time.

Bungie, If you're going to be in the Hamilton area anytime, send me a PM. You can ride mine with the Michelin Exalto. Me thinks there is a big difference even between CT's. I'll only be putting a moto tire back on for a multiday trip through the twisties...............otherwise, it's CT forever! But that's just me..............

 

[Larry33319]

I now have just over 22,000 miles on my Yokohama Advan S4. I live in South Florida, the land of 318 miles and 11 curves so I seem to be getting better milage from my Yokohama than people living in curvy areas of the country. Yesterday I installed the Michelin Exalto on a friends 09 FJR. I took it for a ride around the neighborhood. The first thing I noticed was that it immediatly "fell" into the corners as soon as I started leaning. Definitely less effort that my Advan. I am now at about 60 to 70 % wear on the Yokohama, the Exalto WILL be my next tire.

Bungie, definitely take the opportunity, if it presents itself, to try and ride on another CT. I was and am very happy with my Advan S4 but after riding the Exalto I see something a bit better. They are all different, the same as a moto tire. Some seem to work better than others, while some seem to fail to give you what you are looking for.

The "Double Darksiding" is definitely a Goldwing thing. It seems to work well for those that have tried it. Although it does not appear to be an option for the FJR.

 

[wfooshee]

I have a report on my Dunlop Direzza DZ101. I was about halfway home from work (only about a 4 mile trip since out office moved north from downtown) when I felt like the bike was asking for more pressure to turn in. Looked down, neither tire looks wrong, pulled into a parking lot and checked the pressure. The rear tire, with no visible indication on low pressure, barely moved the gauge. It hissed lightly on the valve but the gauge didn't move far enough to expose even the bottom of the scale. There was no sidewall deflection. I put it up on the centerstand on spun the wheel, found no nails or screws. With nothing but residential streets left, I went ahead and rode it home that way, giving it an occasional flick, a back-and-forth weave in the lane, etc. No difference except an increased pressure on the bar to turn.

It had only been a couple days since my last pressure check, so I'm at a loss to explain it being flat with no holes. Got home, filled it up, sprayed it with soapy water, got no bubbles. Now I'm really confused.

Anyway, next morning, it's down about 2 pounds, so it's leaking, but not real bad. I guess today I'll yank it and have a better look.

Obvious point of the post is: the damn thing makes a fine run-flat on the FJR!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

The "Double Darksiding" is definitely a Goldwing thing. It seems to work well for those that have tried it. Although it does not appear to be an option for the FJR.

This tire is available in the correct size:

Can't be much worse than putting a CT on the back...?

 

[Larry33319]

It had only been a couple days since my last pressure check, so I'm at a loss to explain it being flat with no holes. Got home, filled it up, sprayed it with soapy water, got no bubbles. Now I'm really confused.

Anyway, next morning, it's down about 2 pounds, so it's leaking, but not real bad. I guess today I'll yank it and have a better look.

Take a close look at the valve stem. Wiggle it back and forth to see if it leaks. Also check to se if the core of the valve stem is tight. I think it is a good idea to change to a metal valve stem when changing tires. Especially when you are going to a CT which will normally last 3-4 times as long as a moto tire.