Hanging Off

[James Burleigh]

I tried to post this in NEPRTs, but I kept getting an error message that I'm not allowed. (That hurt my feelings.... ).

Anyway, while riding into work the other day, instead of concentrating on my ride, I was thinking aobut the last ride I organized where a number of people turned out for a fun ride along Skyline to the Wall in Berkeley.

At the time of that ride I had recently completed Lee Parks' "Total Control" workshop where he taught us to hang off the bike fairly aggressively. So I was practicing that technique as I led the ride.

At a break, I overheard someone say to another rider in the group that he noticed my moving back and forth on the bike and didn't see the point of doing all that moving around and hanging off because, even with his passenger, he was going around the curves just as fast as I was, and he wasn't hanging off, so what was the point.

So here's the point: For weekend twisties riders like us, it's not about speed, or going faster, it's about traction control.

I was not trying to go fast, since we were in a residential area most of the time, with a lot of blind corners. In fact, I practice hanging off when I'm going quite slow, like approaching an intersection when I have the green turn arrow to merge onto the freeway in a tight right-angle turn.

Anyway, if you go around a curve with your bike more perpendicular to the road surface (the effect of hanging off) than the fellah who's not leaning off, you are using less traction, and thereby reserving more traction in the event the curve tightens up or you find you've entered too fast and need to lean in some more. So it's principally a safety issue.

As an ancillary benefit for weekend riders, you can also get around that same turn faster if that's what interests you.

And oh yeah--it's fun! :yahoo:

Jb

 

[kolonial72]

I like to hang off a bit even when going slow. This makes one particular left-right turn a lot easier even at low speeds.

 

[FJRBluesman]

You're right, NEPRT.

I would semi agree with the other fellow. I understand your point about traction control, I understand the geometry, etc. There's still plenty of traction there when not hanging off the seat, but that's fine. Unless you think you're going to lean past the edge of the tire, thus reducing your footprint or traction patch, the footprint should be the same size leaning or not.

I know when I would ride the track with my lap timer on the bike, I would always see how I could improve my lap times. Now I do hang off on the track, as I'm at the extremes of the bike (actually just my ability), that being said, I noticed when hanging off the most, attacking the track, and throwing the bike around like I was some superhero, actually slowed me down. When I was at one with the bike, gracefully going through the turns, it felt good but slower, although my lap times said otherwise.

On the track I passed many other riders that were hanging off their bikes and talked with them afterward in the garages. They couldn't understand me passing them as they are dragging their knees in the corners and I was not. I was just smoother I guess. Anyway, my style is much more relaxed when I do twisties on the street, and more conservative, I'm not on the track, so no reason to act like I was.

There are a couple people on the forum, one in particular, who will remain nameless, Fairlaner, who absolutely go fast in the turns leaving me in the dust. I notice they also have similar non-hanging off riding styles. Hmmmmmm, go figure.

 

[FJR-RemingtonRider]

Chiming in, after listening to the Lee Parks Total Control in the turns brief seminar, I too had an epiphany about moving around in the curves. It is not necessary at all times, however if you are not a track rider and just a daily rider, it pays not to be lazy and move to keep your awareness of what your are doing.

As I look at many races on the tele, I noticed these guys work their butts off in the saddle, fast curve / slow curve and they have the same habitual motion of moving and setting off to the inside on the saddle. Now, these professional racers cannot be wrong.

Then I thought to that angle; when they take a spill, is it because they lost focus, did not set off properly or too lackadaisically? But they work. So, I began to work in the twisty/curves as well, setting off at the speedy intersection turns and faster curves. Just practicing and the motion and creating muscle memory so that when I find myself deep in a curve loosing center, it will be easily corrected, because my body will be in the right position. When you try and do all of those 10 step motions in a curve at high speed with panic, body out of position then it creates major issue. Just releasing the pressure on handlebar with the exterior hand in a curve really makes it easier; I like the benefits of that step.

Well to each his own, just be safe out there; Don't Get Caught Off-Guard.

 

[timk]

I hang off so my azz don't git numb on long days.

 

[Jagermeister]

You're right, NEPRT.
I would semi agree with the other fellow. I understand your point about traction control, I understand the geometry, etc. There's still plenty of traction there when not hanging off the seat, but that's fine. Unless you think you're going to lean past the edge of the tire, thus reducing your footprint or traction patch, the footprint should be the same size leaning or not.

I know when I would ride the track with my lap timer on the bike, I would always see how I could improve my lap times. Now I do hang off on the track, as I'm at the extremes of the bike (actually just my ability), that being said, I noticed when hanging off the most, attacking the track, and throwing the bike around like I was some superhero, actually slowed me down. When I was at one with the bike, gracefully going through the turns, it felt good but slower, although my lap times said otherwise.

On the track I passed many other riders that were hanging off their bikes and talked with them afterward in the garages. They couldn't understand me passing them as they are dragging their knees in the corners and I was not. I was just smoother I guess. Anyway, my style is much more relaxed when I do twisties on the street, and more conservative, I'm not on the track, so no reason to act like I was.

There are a couple people on the forum, one in particular, who will remain nameless, Fairlaner, who absolutely go fast in the turns leaving me in the dust. I notice they also have similar non-hanging off riding styles. Hmmmmmm, go figure.

How much do you weigh? I've noticed that Big guys don't need to hang off as much as the smaller riders.

If you're 225-250 lbs, simply moving your shoulders out probably changes the combined bike/rider center of gravity as much as a 165lb rider's entire torso hanging off the side.

 

[Khunajawdge]

Well to each his own, just be safe out there; Don't Get Caught Off-Guard.

Yeah, no joke!

It would be my luck (has been anyway), that when I'm hung off on a fairly tight right hander, that as soon as I can see far enough up the road, I spy a LEO in the next turnout. Gee, guess what? I was not the only one who observed the steep bank angle. Want to guess what happened next?

 

[FJRBluesman]

You're right, NEPRT.
I would semi agree with the other fellow. I understand your point about traction control, I understand the geometry, etc. There's still plenty of traction there when not hanging off the seat, but that's fine. Unless you think you're going to lean past the edge of the tire, thus reducing your footprint or traction patch, the footprint should be the same size leaning or not.

I know when I would ride the track with my lap timer on the bike, I would always see how I could improve my lap times. Now I do hang off on the track, as I'm at the extremes of the bike (actually just my ability), that being said, I noticed when hanging off the most, attacking the track, and throwing the bike around like I was some superhero, actually slowed me down. When I was at one with the bike, gracefully going through the turns, it felt good but slower, although my lap times said otherwise.

On the track I passed many other riders that were hanging off their bikes and talked with them afterward in the garages. They couldn't understand me passing them as they are dragging their knees in the corners and I was not. I was just smoother I guess. Anyway, my style is much more relaxed when I do twisties on the street, and more conservative, I'm not on the track, so no reason to act like I was.

There are a couple people on the forum, one in particular, who will remain nameless, Fairlaner, who absolutely go fast in the turns leaving me in the dust. I notice they also have similar non-hanging off riding styles. Hmmmmmm, go figure.

How much do you weigh? I've noticed that Big guys don't need to hang off as much as the smaller riders.

If you're 225-250 lbs, simply moving your shoulders out probably changes the combined bike/rider center of gravity as much as a 165lb rider's entire torso hanging off the side.

190Lbs.
My point is you really can't ride on the street like you can on the track.

Why? Well, one the track is usually free of most debris in the race line. I'd be willing to bet that most riders that low-side or even high-side on the street were going too fast (or slow, that can happen, don't ask me how I know) for the condition of the road. Gravel, sand, dirt, water, oil, poor condition road, etc., all play a part on aggressive street riding. Hanging off or not, hitting oil, a sandy patch will pitch you off easily.

I never heard of a guy that went down and said, "Wow, I was just too low! I should of hung off." I'd bet the road condition contributed to the get off, or running out of edge on the tire, that's a whole other issue.

Two, if you want to hang off and it helps, that's fine, do it. I don't think it'll make you any faster in the turns on the street. If it gives you piece of mind, cool. Depending on your riding style and speed, it may or may not help. Lets face it, going into a turn where the recommended speed is lets say 45 and you do it at 55, hanging off is buying you what... style points? Taking it at 90+ is another story, still would you need to hang off for the conditions???

I remember cruising on a group ride thru Malibu, we went thru an area of nasty sand in a turn. All of us got a little wobble and pucker factor that hanging off would not have prevented.

IMO the road condition by far will dictate whether you're going down or not.

Anyway, that's why this is a NEPRT.

 

[slapnpop]

I never heard of a guy that went down and said, "Wow, I was just too low! I should of hung off." I'd bet the road condition contributed to the get off, or running out of edge on the tire, that's a whole other issue.

You would recognize it by another classification of get-offs, "dragging hard pards." There are plenty of those to be found in the statistics.

 

[dcarver]

On a ride with RenoJohn and TwoWheelNut, Tim said "Your bike never leans in the corners, Reno is way tipped in."

I took great pride in that, just sayin' :****:

Don't get me wrong, I love to drag pegs and hard parts - when I want to, for show...

but when the stupid rabbit jumps under your tires and you're leaned over at 'near-draggin-hard-parts-thirty'... you'll be happy to have hung off and kept the bike more vertical.

 

[happyPuppy]

The 3 things I learned in the past that help the most were Using my peripheral vision, smooth throttle control as to not upset the suspension and to move away from the tank about a fist size. This allowed me to shift about one butt check over and match the angle of the lean better. It also allows for a bit more lean if needed on the street. Track riding is a different IMO, and the time of laps gives you positive or negative feedback which is a big help. I am going to Lee Parks school this year, I have only been to Code's and it was a long time ago.

 

[El Toro]

Don't get me wrong, I love to drag pegs and hard parts - when I want to, for show... but when the stupid rabbit jumps under your tires and you're leaned over at 'near-draggin-hard-parts-thirty'... you'll be happy to have hung off and kept the bike more vertical.

I think this is an insightful comment.

No pun intended, but a balanced riding style takes advantage of the full inventory of tools for maintaining a smooth line, including throttle, body position, steering mechanics, and lean angle.

Sparks flying impresses a lot of folks, and in the limit, when all techniques are fully exploited (like on a race track), sparks may be necessary. But in sane road riding, they're generally not necessary.

Scratching the pavement is a right of passage, and right or wrong, many assume that by scratching, you're demonstrating greater skill as a rider. My experience is contrary.

As a related comment, when you watch various professional riders, you see how body position is a signature skill, and that everyone seems to approach it in their own way. Think about Valentino Rossi's signature leg out as he brakes entering many turns. Often copied now, no one seems to know why their doing this, but Rossi says it helps him brake. Another one to think about would be Tony Elias. He sometimes appears as though he is the monkey in the sidecar, shifting himself on and off the bike with more drama than anyone else I can think of aside from professional sidecar men. Look at Ben Spies and his elbow pucks. Colin Edwards is another that can really utilize body english, especially to affect a save. In the lower classes, it is even more fun to watch the young guys as they're learning what works, and often, what doesn't work.

 

[jekirby]

I get that sometimes, JB. On a CMA ride out in Kansas, I would do the same thing and got the same comments. "I can go just as fast as you and I don't have to move at all." It led to some of the same topics.

 

[MojaveFJR]

Same technique is taught in the sportbike schools as well.

Whatever works for you. It does look odd when someone starts peg dancing on a Super Sport Tourer but who cares what others think, as long as you are riding safe and having a good time.

For the record, I do this all the time solo and have been known to do it as well two up when the roads get aggressive, to the point where we are scraping pegs on both sides.

The feej is big but she is graceful.

Continue to practice this till be becomes an automatic event.

 

[madmike2]

Continue to practice this till be becomes an automatic event.

That's the key to any technique. We all want to be smooth and able but few of us are willing to continually work at the riding techniques we read, myself included.

Good for Hans, bringing this (and other attendant issues) to discussion here. We all need to practice what we know on every ride so our responses/reactions are automatic rather than "second thought".

Geez, now I need to make a list to work on. Thanks for the Christmas present, guys.

 

[Hit the Road Jack]

Lee Parks, Lee Parks, Lee Parks, blah, blah, blah. You're obviously in love, dude!

You should just go to the dark side and mount up a car tire (and a rainbow flag). Then hanging off will be required to turn at all!

Merry Christmas fellow forum members. :yahoo:

 

[James Burleigh]

but when the stupid rabbit jumps under your tires and you're leaned over at 'near-draggin-hard-parts-thirty'... you'll be happy to have hung off and kept the bike more vertical.

:friends:

JB

P.S. When in the hell are you comin' up here to change out my clutch?! Have I gotta do everything around here? Jeesh! :glare:

 

[chivvalry]

I've not been a big peg dancer in the past... though on a cruiser that usually isnt the top thing on the list to do anyway. I've always been the type to just flow with the bike instead of fighting it or dancing on it. Very zen like... when you need to relax toward the inside to straighten the bike up a bit in a sharp twisty then you do just that, relax your weight toward the inside. No?

 

[chivvalry]

Body Positioning when cornering