I am back - and I have a story

[HotRodZilla]

can I ask if the other vehicle stopped, the police were involved, were their any citations isssued and how are both the insurance companies handling this.

It wasn't your fault on any level and the other driver should be cited and their insurance cover your damages.

I hope so.

If not, that would be an example of a nightmare for me.

heal up and get back on the horse in a reasonable time,

Mike in Nawlins'

It's the other person's fault that he ASSUMED they were going to do something they didn't do?? You have been driving long enough to know that's not true. It is his fault for not knowing how to handle his bike, for not practicing on his bike, for making an assumption on a highway, and not wearing the right gear.

"It wasn't your fault on any level" is completely incorrect. He holds a lot of culpability for his crash, and unless the other vehicle actually made contact with his MC, he's gonna have a hellavua time proving the other driver's fault and getting their insurance company to pay up.

 

[wfooshee]

.. just a minute, are you saying you've seen someone do a stoppie on an fjr? isn't a 650 lb bike a bit heavy for a stoppie?

I have had the rear wheel bounce 2 or 3 times during a panic stop. No I wasn't in a stoppie, but the rear was contributing 0% of my braking effort. (But then, I'm on the shorter '03... )

Twice I've had the rear lock on me when stopping extra hard, and I've done what the BRC says not to do: I let go of the rear. It's a reflex from years of autocross driving and sensitivity to brake lockup. I've never been far enough sideways when I let go of the rear to have any issues.

That said, I do use both brakes for normal redlight/stopsign decelerating, but almost nowhere else. Curve in the road, front brake. Slow riding in a parking lot turn, maybe drag the rear.

My only brake crash was a front lockup at 30 mph (my cat crash.) Crowned road, instant lowside. It happened so fast I was sliding before I realized I'd crashed!

 

[JamesW]

Your comment about maybe giving up riding could be a serious tell, give it some serious thought. Going down is never pleasant, some folks shrug it off, others never do. Evaluate your inner feelings and go from there.

 

[Ken45]

A little bit I will add: every model bike is somewhat different with brakes, how the brakes work, how much before the rear locks up, etc.

The newer FJRs have the foot brake linked to the rear and front brakes, but the hand brake only applies to the front. And newer models have ABS and should not lock up. Goldwings have front and back linked for both the hand and foot brake.

My '92 Nighthawk and my old CB-750K have the brakes independent and rears lock up fairly easily.

FWIW, my Goldwing Trike cannot lock up the rear. Just using the foot brake, the front will lock up, not the rear.

The big point I am trying to make is that each bike is different and one needs to know the braking on the particular bike before you get into an emergency. Generalities do not apply.

Ken

 

[azitlies]

Guys, integrated brakes and linked brakes don't give you more stopping power, they simply apply the other in case you forget to.

That's why they were developed, for inexperienced riders who didn't use both brakes as they should. Basically, if you simply used both brakes, as you should, there's no difference than between no linkage in the braking and linkage.

Well, actually there is one difference, the brakes with linkage are a huge pia to bleed...

 

[Goodman4]

Interesting discussion. I think your original question about whether the FJR is a safer bike to ride tells me you don't want to give up riding. If you're like me, you continually argue with yourself how safe riding is, especially after you or a friend has a wreck. My nephew rides dirt bikes, but I want to ride street with him and I've been cautiously encouraging him to think about an enduro. But if he gets hurt or killed, I'll never forgive myself. I helped get my pastor into biking and he recently wrecked his VStar 1300 in a similar situation where an elderly lady crossed the road into his lane and he tried to swerve, hit a pothole and went down. He broke his collar bone and got some good scrapes, but the bike was not damaged due to the crash bars. He probably could have avoided the accident with more advanced riding skills and would have been less injured if he had his armor on.

So just my advice, but don't give up riding. Unless you are not going to invest heavily in practice or classes. But ride within your abilities until you get your abilities up there. Every one of us will face situations beyond our capabilities and even the best experienced riders here (I do not put myself anywhere near that class) will face things they can't handle. The worst wreck I have had was actually from practicing. I had come from a KZ1000 and was trying to adjust to cornering on my VTX and was trying to practice leaning and learned how not to do it the hard way.

Since I know I would not have had the above mentioned wreck if I had been on the FJR, you would think I would recommend the FJR as a safer bike, but I say the opposite. This may be a controversial opinion, but I am probably safer on the VTX. I have explained it to my wife like this: in any given situation, if someone pulls in front of me on the way to work I could stop and react significantly better on the FJR than my cruiser, but any given day I am more likely to be in a less-safe situation on the FJR than I am on the cruiser because of its speed and power.

How fast would you have been going if you were pissed at that guy for pulling off on the right without signalling and you flicked the throttle to pass him like it feels so good to do on the FJR? That would have been a different kind of wreck.

I think a cruiser is a good bike for beginners and the FJR is an intermediate only bike. The FJR can handle better, but it takes more skill to handle it. A bicycle handles much worse than a motorcycle and is very dangerous when hit by a car, but we let children ride them on the road because the amount of danger they can "normally" find is low.

Anyway, I felt some connection with your mental struggle so I threw out my opinion. And I strongly agree with the other advice given here (gear, balanced front braking and classes). Good luck getting to what is right for you.

Paul

 

[JohnnyBo]

The short answer to your question is "Yes". The FJR has a better suspension, better brakes, better thrust and smaller rake and trail angles. All those put together means it will handle better than a cruiser especially in emergency maneuvering and it will stop faster, all things being equal.

I read many of the responses here and it seems the majority of them, OK all of them, propose that the brakes are the best solution in this case. I will openly admit in your situation you had a split second to make a very key decision. That decision would be can I nail the throttle and finish the pass or am I forced to brake my way out of this situation.

The reason I have heartburn with this is that any bike worth $.02 and has "Sport" in its nomenclature can accelerate and brake to and from a given speed in roughly equal time and distance. Since the only REAL thing you are trying to do in collision avoidance is not occupy the same point in the space time continuum as the other vehicle, jumping on the throttle is a valid tactic if your bike is up for it. That assumes you're operating the bike at a point in its power band where you have the thrust you need on hand to do the job. I rarely operate my bike outside of that point for this very reason. This aspect is where your cruisers falls very short of the FJR or any other competent sport bike.

I also have heartburn with the "four fingers on the brake" concept as articulated by one of our esteemed MSF instructors. This concept implies that you have the time to transition all four fingers from running the throttle to running the brakes. I don't put much stock in that. I believe you have a much better reaction time if you are covering the front brake with two fingers and running the throttle with the others. When you need that front brake NOW you have it. The MSF concept as expressed doesn't take into account the advances in brakes made over the last decade. Believe me, when applied properly you can haul the FJR down from nearly any speed with a strong pointer and middle finger and not much else. I proved this concept to the last MSF instructor who wanted to take me up on it. And yes, with the correct suspension settings it will do a stoppie.

 

[azitlies]

My 08, the ABS would kick in long before the 650 lb monster came close to doing a stoppie. Maybe your ABS is different, but I highly doubt it. Maybe in dreams the back tire of a 650 lb bike with ABS is coming off the ground... not in reality.

And the MSF does recommend "covering the controls" in very dangerous situations, like intersections. And possibly the situation the OP describes, seems to make sense. But the 2 finger vs 4 isn't really complicated. The main thing is to not over think it. So you don't have to worry about "transitioning" as all 4 are already there... you're full stopping power.

If yer doing 80 and you have to slow as fast as you can... 4 will do it faster than 2. The key is to know where the threshold is (for non ABS bikes). If you have ABS, you'll simply kick in that technology sooner, as you'll get to that "technology" faster.

You know, a 380 lb gixxer with 175 hp, and a top speed of 190, has so much stopping power, it'll do a stoppie easily. But a 650 lb fjr with maybe 125 hp, and ABS... that's a fantasy. Doesn't matter how you set the suspension... that ABS is kicking in long before that back wheel is off the ground.

 

[J. Parrie]

My 08, the ABS would kick in long before the 650 lb monster came close to doing a stoppie. Maybe your ABS is different, but I highly doubt it. Maybe in dreams the back tire of a 650 lb bike with ABS is coming off the ground... not in reality.

And the MSF does recommend "covering the controls" in very dangerous situations, like intersections. And possibly the situation the OP describes, seems to make sense. But the 2 finger vs 4 isn't really complicated. The main thing is to not over think it. So you don't have to worry about "transitioning" as all 4 are already there... you're full stopping power.

If yer doing 80 and you have to slow as fast as you can... 4 will do it faster than 2. The key is to know where the threshold is (for non ABS bikes). If you have ABS, you'll simply kick in that technology sooner, as you'll get to that "technology" faster.

You know, a 380 lb gixxer with 175 hp, and a top speed of 190, has so much stopping power, it'll do a stoppie easily. But a 650 lb fjr with maybe 125 hp, and ABS... that's a fantasy. Doesn't matter how you set the suspension... that ABS is kicking in long before that back wheel is off the ground.

If you are speaking from experience, you may want to look into a better quality front tire. While I don't run around doing stoppies on my FJR of they type that can be done on my FZ1, I do like to know where the edge is. And I can assure you that the rear wheel on my 650 lb FJR has seen a couple of inches of air several times without intervention from the ABS. What does 175 hp vs 125 hp have to do with the ability to brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel off the pavement?

 

[azitlies]

My 08, the ABS would kick in long before the 650 lb monster came close to doing a stoppie. Maybe your ABS is different, but I highly doubt it. Maybe in dreams the back tire of a 650 lb bike with ABS is coming off the ground... not in reality.

And the MSF does recommend "covering the controls" in very dangerous situations, like intersections. And possibly the situation the OP describes, seems to make sense. But the 2 finger vs 4 isn't really complicated. The main thing is to not over think it. So you don't have to worry about "transitioning" as all 4 are already there... you're full stopping power.

If yer doing 80 and you have to slow as fast as you can... 4 will do it faster than 2. The key is to know where the threshold is (for non ABS bikes). If you have ABS, you'll simply kick in that technology sooner, as you'll get to that "technology" faster.

You know, a 380 lb gixxer with 175 hp, and a top speed of 190, has so much stopping power, it'll do a stoppie easily. But a 650 lb fjr with maybe 125 hp, and ABS... that's a fantasy. Doesn't matter how you set the suspension... that ABS is kicking in long before that back wheel is off the ground.

If you are speaking from experience, you may want to look into a better quality front tire. While I don't run around doing stoppies on my FJR of they type that can be done on my FZ1, I do like to know where the edge is. And I can assure you that the rear wheel on my 650 lb FJR has seen a couple of inches of air several times without intervention from the ABS. What does 175 hp vs 125 hp have to do with the ability to brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel off the pavement?

Sorry, don't mean to imply the horsepower has anything to do with it, other than to point out a bike with that kind of speed will have exceptionally powerful brakes, it has to, to slow it down.

Well I had BT023GT tires on mine and there's just no way in the world the ABS was going to allow it to stoppie. But honestly, now I'm trying to remember what the point of all this is, I don't think it will, but who cares really? I think this thread started out about something completely different

 

[captaincautious]

What size/type of Suzuki did you trade and what is your actual experience on bikes?

 

[Donal]

There's some interesting reading here by David Hough:

Road Science: Braking - Part 1

Road Science: Braking - Part 2

Road Science: Braking - Part 3

Road Science: Braking - Part 4

Happy reading

Don

 

[Candyman]

...

Be in the habit of ONLY using the FRONT BRAKE except under particular circumstances of finally coming to a halt in a curve, or sometimes on a very slippery surface.

My suggestion would be to get yourself into the habit "Brake with the front brake". Then, when you do need to stop in a hurry, you will automatically use the one that gives you 80% of your available braking effort.

...

I disagree. Always use BOTH brakes, and regurlarly go to an empty parking lot and practice emergency braking maneuvers (using both brakes, learning how much pressure you can use on front/rear)

I technically agree with you. However, as we all know, when we are braking really hard the rear brake does little, the rear wheel being almost lifted off the road.

Until you have sufficient experience to go for your front brake in an emergency, almost forgetting you have a rear brake forces your muscle memory to go for the front.

When this is ingrained, then you can start using both brakes, which in normal use certainly gives a much better feel to the bike.

OK, maybe I came on a little strong, but I've witnessed people who have never learnt to use the front brake, and I've been scared rigid on a couple of occasions by their near misses.

I disagree with you completely and I can prove it. I actually demo this very thing when I teach the advanced or sportbike course. Front brake only will always net you less braking than a good combination of both. Practice using both every time you stop and you will be better at muscle memory. There are VERY FEW instances where rear brake will get you in trouble, Even in a slidem Ride it out and NEVER release it ( when riding on pavement) during a rear tire slide.

 

[Candyman]

.. just a minute, are you saying you've seen someone do a stoppie on an fjr? isn't a 650 lb bike a bit heavy for a stoppie?

I have had the rear wheel bounce 2 or 3 times during a panic stop. No I wasn't in a stoppie, but the rear was contributing 0% of my braking effort. (But then, I'm on the shorter '03... )

!

Wavy asphalt maybe? I do all the demos on my FJR and a teach at least 10 courses a year. Never had the rear lock or hop until I defeated the ABS on my bike. I am a control freak adn I have proven i can stop quicker on dry pavement without ABS than i can with it. Wet pavement is another story, but its preference for me not to have ABS.

 

[PotentialFJRowner]

What size/type of Suzuki did you trade and what is your actual experience on bikes?

The Suzuki was a 1982 GS650. It was the bike I learned to ride on. Put 11,000 miles on it in 2.5 years and felt quite confident riding it. My total riding experience is about 14,000 miles and around three years. I had a hard time getting used to the cruiser style VStar and had quite an active thread on the Star Bike Forum and got some good advice about the topic. That's where I learned to lean up towards the bars and into the turn rather than just leaning to the side while in the position the VStar put the driver in naturally. That helped, and I was slowly building confidence in the VStar and actually found it to be a lot of more nimble than I initially gave it credit for being.

 

[PotentialFJRowner]

I think that the FJR's ABS may have helped somewhat in your situation, but I fail to see how any perceived "better handling" of the FJR would have come into play. Let's face facts: It doesn't sound like you rode the V-Star to its full potential, so surely, you would have been lacking on the FJR also. As mentioned before, since the FJR is so much faster, you may have actually put yourself into a worse situation compounded by added speed.

First: As said before, go to a class. Not trying to be judgemental, but it doesn't sound like you know how to ride a motorcycle very well. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you accept your level of ability, ride accordingly, and work to improve. One instance of having to run off the road because you lost control, and another of crashing because you lost control, along with another scare, all within 1500 miles says something for your skill, and you need to make adjustments.

Second: Learn your brakes, whether ABS or not. You should have known a long time ago what it would take to lock up the rear tire on the V-Star and what it would do when you did. You waited until you were in a full panic and then it was too late. You needed to have the ability to bring the bike to near lock up, know it's coming, let off a little and do it again. That comes with practice.

Third: Use both your front and rear brakes. This notion that you shouldn't use the rear unless you are in a full panic stopping situation is simply wrong. If you don't use your rear brake on a "normal" basis, you won't use it in an emergency either. You will be depending on muscle memory to save your ass, and your muscles will have the wrong memory.

You should initially ride with your right toe covering your brake pedal. If you begin to brake hard, the forward inertia will actually bring you down to your brake, and you should engage it. If you don't believe me, try it. Also see how the braking force feels with just the rear brake (poor), just the front brake (still poor, but better), and with both brakes (best). You will then understand that both brakes should be used when you stop.

Fourth: Practice in parking lots and empty roads. If you grab too much and crash in a big empty parking lot, that's way better than doing it in the middle of a busy intersection. You should know what your bike will do and how it will feel when you grab the brakes. You should know how it will feel if you go full throttle at different speeds in 1st, 2nd, etc...

Last: Wear your gear. You're lucky your not more seriously injured. Turns out riding in a t-shirt, fleece pull-over and jeans isn't as cool as you thought. At least you seemed to have learned that part.

I am not here to be offended or take things personally, so I actually appreciate you being upfront.

I knew the rear brake on the VStar locked easy and the guys over at Star Bike forums agree. To be honest, I did not think it would start to come out from under me the way it did and that is my fault. I learned a hard and painful lesson.

I do not necessarily agree with your assessment of my riding skills. I could have handled the accident better and probably avoided it with more effective use of the brakes - and just slowing down behind the driver in front of me to see what he was going to do rather than think he was letting me pass. I did handle the unexpected lady half in my lane on a curve well - I calmly leaned it and swerved around her. Wasn't that close but I don't think she ever saw me. As for the loose gravel, I was making a turn onto a road that had it freshly laid, but not rolled. Seeing that, I steered the bike straight and tried to slow it down without locking the front brake. I coasted into a person's lawn harmlessly. I don't know how I could have better handled that. I did not see the road conditions until it was too late. No signs.

I agree with all your other advice and will follow it if I get back into it. As for the gear, I knew right away that was a mistake. Never again. Hell, I might start wearing the armor jacket in my car! I actually have ridden many times in shorts and a t-shirt too. Not smart, and never again.

The reason I asked about the FJR being safer in this crash is mainly because of the proportioned brakes and ABS. I think I would have brought it to a complete stop without losing it, but who knows for sure. Also, being in a more aggressive riding position with a bike that is meant more for carving it up than a cruiser is.

I also was with either too complacent or not focused enough in this incident. I should not have come up on that other driver the way I did.

 

[PotentialFJRowner]

can I ask if the other vehicle stopped, the police were involved, were their any citations isssued and how are both the insurance companies handling this.

It wasn't your fault on any level and the other driver should be cited and their insurance cover your damages.

I hope so.

If not, that would be an example of a nightmare for me.

heal up and get back on the horse in a reasonable time,

Mike in Nawlins'

I was not put at fault for this accident. It appears as though I will bear a slight amount of negligence for this accident - about 10% - for attempting an illegal pass even though it was in the lane of travel. The officer put the other driver at fault and ticketed him for failure to signal. The other drivers insurance company is picking up the tab. I only left the lane to avoid a collision

 

[Chiefblueman]

Any crash you survive is a learning opportunity, probably where the term crash course came from. It's good that you're thinking about what you did wrong, not about what the other driver did wrong. You only have control over your own actions and reactions. Rather than thinking in terms of better equipment saving the day, think how you could have handled the situation better using the same equipment (bike). You and others have come up with good ideas. Wearing gear is paramount as you've discovered. As others have pointed out, once you've locked that rear wheel you're committed. Unless you're still travelling in a straight line releasing that pedal will introduce you to a faceplant right quick, something you learned. I'm one of those that believes in mastering the use of all the tools available to you on a bike and using them, but the most important tool to master is right behind your eyeballs. You gotta be wary and ready for that cager that's answering a text and just spilled his soda or beer or whatever they may be doing besides driving. I'm very happy you weren't seriously hurt

 

[Patriot]

can I ask if the other vehicle stopped, the police were involved, were their any citations isssued and how are both the insurance companies handling this.

It wasn't your fault on any level and the other driver should be cited and their insurance cover your damages.

I hope so.

If not, that would be an example of a nightmare for me.

heal up and get back on the horse in a reasonable time,

Mike in Nawlins'

I was not put at fault for this accident. It appears as though I will bear a slight amount of negligence for this accident - about 10% - for attempting an illegal pass even though it was in the lane of travel. The officer put the other driver at fault and ticketed him for failure to signal. The other drivers insurance company is picking up the tab. I only left the lane to avoid a collision

I'm glad/relieved to read this

really a big thanx to you for this thread...it seems to me these kind of discussions are quite profitable

I know my "be careful" nerve will kick in when it's best to be cautious and not assume the right drifter isn't ultimately gonna turn left

best to you

Mike

 

[Goodman4]

I agree with Patriot that this was a good reminder to be careful. Also I apologize for jumping in with the chorus and assuming you had less experience just because you had a couple incidents. It should have tipped me off that you had a few years under your belt because you were quick to point out your mistake and blame yourself instead of just the idiot that cut you off.

Glad their insurance is taking care of it.