TruWrecks
Still chewing thru the Restraints
I'll work on some comparisons tonight. I need to put one standard bulb back in for this.
Kisan in-line HD vs. HD-M w/AVCC
- Thread starter Dangerous Dave
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
If you can show me the exact model bulbs you bought, I'd spring for a pair from Pep Boys and then stick one in for an ionbeam metered tail-light shootout. 
We could measure the stock bulbs, LED bulbs and Whelen LIN3 mega-bright LED third brake light.
Yeah, I know... my life is that boring. :lol:
We could measure the stock bulbs, LED bulbs and Whelen LIN3 mega-bright LED third brake light.Yeah, I know... my life is that boring. :lol:
TruWrecks
Still chewing thru the Restraints
I went and put a standard 1157 back in one side. From a distance my current LED bulbs may have an edge for the subjective brightness, yet the standard bulb may be more visible at a greater distance because they fill the lens more uniformly.
Running lights:
Brake lights:
I have a set of the Matrix LEDs, 32 LED version, on the way from Autolumination that I ordered last week. I will do some comparisons when they get here.
To date the brightest brake lights I have run where from HighTechSpeed.com. I won't be doing that route again because they aren't making them anymore.
Running lights:
Brake lights:
I have a set of the Matrix LEDs, 32 LED version, on the way from Autolumination that I ordered last week. I will do some comparisons when they get here.
To date the brightest brake lights I have run where from HighTechSpeed.com. I won't be doing that route again because they aren't making them anymore.
I think that you have discovered what I have already, that the LED's seem bright due to the tight light pattern, but they do not throw as much total light as the ole' school incandescent bulbs. But yours do appear to be a good bit better than mine were.
v65
ouch
The problem I see with this discussion is that brightness is not the only issue. For example the contrasting LED and incandescent bulb, although not the brightest possible combination, may be more visible due to the contrast.
MT home
Active member
At the risk of aiding and abetting turning this thread into a LED vs. incandescent lamp discussion, my two cents worth is that "brightness" is not the only issue to consider. I am interested in "how conspicuous" (how well do they stand out while riding) are my taillights and brakelights. My personal observations tell me that the intensity of a light source [brightness] is only one component -- the surface area being illuminated is the other primary component. The appropriate use of reflectors and lens to gather and focus the light source's output can make a less efficient (and less direct) source appear to be larger and more visible than a light source that has a greater lumen output.
While "large and dim" may not be as conspicuous as "small and bright", modern taillights with large surface areas (as on the FJR) provide a pretty good compromise that is hard to easily improve. Small lens areas are more likely to be improved with an LED replacement bulb than are large area lens. Ideally, we want large and (reasonably) bright, without glaring and causing other drivers to look away.
Because the FJR taillight assembly (housing, reflector, lens) was designed to optimize the output of an incandescent lamp [bulb], I'n not surprised that LED 1157 replacement lamps do not produce as conspicuous an effect as their lumen output would lead one to think. The "fill the lens area" effect is what we are all noticing. There are several manufacturers who produce a replacement taillight assemby that uses a high-count LED circuit board that distributes LEDs to provide a light source across all or most of the taillight lens area. IMO, those items are the best answer for "more visiblity, less electical draw" search. (Unforunately, nobody seems to make one for the FJR.)
There are, as others have noted in other threads, a number of 1157/1156 replacement bulbs that attempt to use LEDs placed in off-axis locations that attempt to use the lens and reflector assemblies to replicate the "full lens area" effect of an incandescent lamp. Fred W and others have bought a lot of replacement LED 1157 bulbs looking for something that works with the optics of the FJR taillight assembly. I don't know if there any good way other than comparison testing to figure out what is a good/optimal combination. I respectfully question whether close-up photos tell enough of the story - since I think that most of what we are all looking for is visiblity from a distance, before the cages get right up on our tails. Likewise, I think that while using a quality light meter can help quantify what our eyes are seening, they are not going to provide all of the information we want.
I'm sorry that I don't have photos to demostrate the points I'm trying to make, but look at the existing pictures and I think that you may be able to see what I'm trying to say.
While "large and dim" may not be as conspicuous as "small and bright", modern taillights with large surface areas (as on the FJR) provide a pretty good compromise that is hard to easily improve. Small lens areas are more likely to be improved with an LED replacement bulb than are large area lens. Ideally, we want large and (reasonably) bright, without glaring and causing other drivers to look away.
Because the FJR taillight assembly (housing, reflector, lens) was designed to optimize the output of an incandescent lamp [bulb], I'n not surprised that LED 1157 replacement lamps do not produce as conspicuous an effect as their lumen output would lead one to think. The "fill the lens area" effect is what we are all noticing. There are several manufacturers who produce a replacement taillight assemby that uses a high-count LED circuit board that distributes LEDs to provide a light source across all or most of the taillight lens area. IMO, those items are the best answer for "more visiblity, less electical draw" search. (Unforunately, nobody seems to make one for the FJR.)
There are, as others have noted in other threads, a number of 1157/1156 replacement bulbs that attempt to use LEDs placed in off-axis locations that attempt to use the lens and reflector assemblies to replicate the "full lens area" effect of an incandescent lamp. Fred W and others have bought a lot of replacement LED 1157 bulbs looking for something that works with the optics of the FJR taillight assembly. I don't know if there any good way other than comparison testing to figure out what is a good/optimal combination. I respectfully question whether close-up photos tell enough of the story - since I think that most of what we are all looking for is visiblity from a distance, before the cages get right up on our tails. Likewise, I think that while using a quality light meter can help quantify what our eyes are seening, they are not going to provide all of the information we want.
I'm sorry that I don't have photos to demostrate the points I'm trying to make, but look at the existing pictures and I think that you may be able to see what I'm trying to say.
bmwhd
Well-known member
FWIW, I'm a big fan of LEDs. I run full LED array replacement boards on my other bikes. However, since I've never found such for the FJR, I've stuck with the Kisan tailBlazer bulbs (with relay for the CC100). I find the 20w halogen Kisan's to be significantly brighter than the OEM bulbs and have none of the issues of the plug-n-play LED bulbs with respect to coverage.
any chance of a side by side of the Kissan bulbs and stock bulbs?
I know... I'm needy.
I know... I'm needy.
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
Ok, I've read everybody's input intently. Here's what I've got so far.
I hear you, but I also hear you saying that you never tried the 100HD-M. I wrote to Kisan about the difference between the HD and the HD-M without mentioning that I had a CCS-100. Their reply was something to the effect that the "M" would work with a cruise control because of signal voltage on the wire. With that said, I scored a 100HD-M off Ebay today, NIB, for uber-cheap. Cheap enough that it's worth a try, and if it doesn't work with the cruise, I can likely move it in the classifieds here, since it's made for an ABS FJR. I've been down the road of LED replacements for 1157s and have found them to be much less than I bargained for. I have aftermarket LED bars on my top case that I T-tap into the stock wiring harness when the top case is on...which isn't very often. For now, I'm going to install the 100HD-M and see what that gets me. I am intrigued by the Halogen replacements for 1157s, but I'm also very aware of the on-off rate of an incandescent vs an LED. I'm glad I created some interest in the subject here. I suspect we'll all have this sorted out pretty soon. Some answers will be subjective, some definitive, but it should all prove usefull in the end. I'll post up again with results as soon as the 100HD-M gets installed.
I hear you, but I also hear you saying that you never tried the 100HD-M. I wrote to Kisan about the difference between the HD and the HD-M without mentioning that I had a CCS-100. Their reply was something to the effect that the "M" would work with a cruise control because of signal voltage on the wire. With that said, I scored a 100HD-M off Ebay today, NIB, for uber-cheap. Cheap enough that it's worth a try, and if it doesn't work with the cruise, I can likely move it in the classifieds here, since it's made for an ABS FJR. I've been down the road of LED replacements for 1157s and have found them to be much less than I bargained for. I have aftermarket LED bars on my top case that I T-tap into the stock wiring harness when the top case is on...which isn't very often. For now, I'm going to install the 100HD-M and see what that gets me. I am intrigued by the Halogen replacements for 1157s, but I'm also very aware of the on-off rate of an incandescent vs an LED. I'm glad I created some interest in the subject here. I suspect we'll all have this sorted out pretty soon. Some answers will be subjective, some definitive, but it should all prove usefull in the end. I'll post up again with results as soon as the 100HD-M gets installed.
Last edited by a moderator:
bmwhd
Well-known member
I'm tearing into the bike this weekend to install my grip heaters so I'll try (if I can find an OEM bulb laying around) and make a vid for you.any chance of a side by side of the Kissan bulbs and stock bulbs?
I know... I'm needy.
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
Is that your FINAL answer???
Congratulations! You got that one right without even using any of your lifelines! :lol:
Contrary to what the folks at Kizan told me, the 100HD-M is NOT compatible with the CCS-100. My cruise became inoperative as soon as I installed the Tailblazer. The Tailblazer definately does its thing with the brake lights though! I realize I could remedy this with a relay as some previously mentioned, but frankly I think I'm reaching my farkle saturation point. So I removed the Tailblazer and will try to sell it here in the classifieds.
Now, since we started a hot bulb topic along the way, I'm wondering if anybody has tried THESE from superbrightleds.com? They certainly look and sound promising...that is, they promise full lamp illumination like an incandescent. Not exactly cheap, but if they deliver as promised, they might be a great solution. Anybody seen or tried these?
v65
ouch
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
The LEDs you linked to above have a claimed output (brightness) of 175 / 35 lumens for the Stop lamp (high) and running lamp (low) modes respectively in the white colored units, which have the brightest specs.
A standard 1157 bulb has specs of 402 / 38 lumens.
The standard 2357 bulbs is a drop-in replacement for the 1157. I have taken to shoving these in the back of my motorcycles as a cheap brake light upgrade. They have output specs of 503 / 38 lumens.
As you can see, the LEDs don't come close to being the same light output in the brake light mode and they are not even claiming to be as bright in running light (low) mode. Add to that that the LEDs are all highly directional, so whatever brightness that they do make is only seen from directly behind the bike, and diminishes quickly when viewed from at any angle.
This seems to also be the consensus of the folks at WebBikeWorld ( linky1 and linky2 ) who have tested a lot of the various LED tail light replacements.
So far, any time there has been a direct, side by side comparison, the old standard incandescent bulb has been brighter.
A standard 1157 bulb has specs of 402 / 38 lumens.
The standard 2357 bulbs is a drop-in replacement for the 1157. I have taken to shoving these in the back of my motorcycles as a cheap brake light upgrade. They have output specs of 503 / 38 lumens.
As you can see, the LEDs don't come close to being the same light output in the brake light mode and they are not even claiming to be as bright in running light (low) mode. Add to that that the LEDs are all highly directional, so whatever brightness that they do make is only seen from directly behind the bike, and diminishes quickly when viewed from at any angle.
This seems to also be the consensus of the folks at WebBikeWorld ( linky1 and linky2 ) who have tested a lot of the various LED tail light replacements.
So far, any time there has been a direct, side by side comparison, the old standard incandescent bulb has been brighter.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
Have you found the shorter life expectancy of the 2357 to be an issue? Webbikeworld shows it at 1/3 the life expectancy of an 1157.
No. The brake light filament will have a shorter life span, but because it only comes on with the brakes that is not an issue. The running light filament is identical to the 1157. so no difference in life.
But being completely honest here, the difference in light intensity is minimal. It is hard to appreciate a 25% increase in lumens. It is brighter, but not by much.
I'd really, really like to find an LED replacement bulb that was as bright or brighter that the stock lights to get that fast turn-on time.
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
If the FJR was one of those bikes where you changed the bulb by removing the lens, things would be very different. You can get some wicked LED replacements for 1157s, but they're huge and won't fit through the socket hole in the back, but must be installed from the lens side. There has to be a better LED out there.
