Oil Change Debacle with Drain Plug?

[RossKean]

Crush washer, what's that? Are you supposed to change them? I am running the originals that came with the bike (108,000 miles). Never leaked a drop, never any stripped thread drama, never loosened up on me, never used a torque wrench on oil plug. No reason (yet) to change this practice.

 

[bluesdog]

Our BOF is sadly in need of an update, BTW, and perhaps some of the misleading information could be corrected along with the update. Maybe a group effort?

The owners of those three different areas (one is already updated) may not catch this one post with all the threads on the forum. Perhaps you can send them a PM or add a post in the particular BOF section.

Looks like someone beat me to it!

 

[Queensland Ken]

Funny thing is when I did the first service on the AEE, the two drain plugs were just nipped up just nice, nothing like previous new FJR's I've worked on.

(Both the Stelvio and ex-Trophy seemed like they were tightened with a rattle gun at factory.)

It took 2 of us with breaker bars to remove the suspension linkage bolts, but the 4 acorn nuts were loose.

 

[Constant Mesh]

The 2014 Yamaha FZ1 has the same engine oil drain bolt tightening torque -- 43 Nm, 31 lb-ft.

This value may be recommended for a variety of Yamaha bikes.

 

[Colin24]

Fred, with your scientific approach background, you'll find this amusing, or distressing... All fasteners EXCEPT some true 'critical' ones, get cleaned of all dirt, debris, grease, oil. Then they get a slathering of anti-seize prior to assembly. Final torque is the dcarver time proven 25% less than spec (clean, lubed threads vs dry) then I torque by hand. To exactly +/- 0.2 nanoseconds. (oh, wait, wrong units?)

.....

Then I discovered anti-seize and game ON!

A very big +1 on the anti-seize paste and going under-torque spec. Been doing the same on my '05 FJR since new and have not had any lost fasteners or stripped threads.

As for the original topic

1) Either an insert to repair the threads OR a new pan altogether. (Personally I would find a way to fix the old pan)

2) Another solution would be to remove the oil pan and find a bolt that is 1mm larger. Then drill and tap the hole to that slightly larger size. Need to make sure there is still enough "meat" in the pan to do this. The downside to this approach would be a non-standard oil plug size (making crush washers a little harder to find).

3) Or if the pan is removed have a welder fill the hole back in a little and re-tap. (Would have to see the backside of the pan and this depends on how good your welder is.)

I have over 150K Miles on mine and haven't had an issue with the drain plug. But here's how I handle it

1) Use plastic crush washers and use them only once.

2) Tighten with hand wrench till bolt seats into the plastic (doesn't take much). (Plastic should deform a little, but shouldn't be completely squashed)

Hope you get this sorted out.

- Colin

 

[Donal]

Interesting little u-tube video showing the relationship between torque & bolt tension

 

[HotRodZilla]

Interesting little u-tube video showing the relationship between torque & bolt tension clicky here

As dorky as it sounds, that was cool. Good information I don't think a lot of people realize. It hadn't occurred to me that a 'torqued' bolt may actually be loose.

Thanks!

 

[rushes]

Y'all are crazy.

Oil drain plug torque....

It ain't no BMW. It don't matter!

Jus snug it up like yer dang lawn mower....

 

[Bustanut joker]

Really!!!!! 3 pages for something that was dealt with years ago...

Walks away shaking head.

 

[Fred W]

Interesting video. Not so much for this particular application of an oil drain plug, but the variability of clamping forces was more than I expected.

 

[Donal]

Interesting video. Not so much for this particular application of an oil drain plug, but the variability of clamping forces was more than I expected.

That's what I was getting at. The question of torque and what it actually means comes up routinely. I kind of hoped it might clear things up for a few people. As for torquing oil drain plugs..................

 

[mcatrophy]

Interesting video. Not so much for this particular application of an oil drain plug, but the variability of clamping forces was more than I expected.

That's what I was getting at. The question of torque and what it actually means comes up routinely. I kind of hoped it might clear things up for a few people. As for torquing oil drain plugs..................

This is one reason we talk of "feel" (or feeling the torque?) when doing up a nut or bolt

You can feel the resistance to turning of the thread before it's seated, you can feel the rate at which it stiffens as you start to "put tension" into the bolt, and you feel how much of that is due to friction in the washer or seat.

You can also feel when something's going wrong, whether cross-threading, or even the onset of stripping before it's really started, or seizing due to corrosion or foreign matter in the thread.

As shown in the video, torque wrenches are fine under "perfect" conditions (provided the torque figures used are good), less so in the real world.

 

[Geezer]

I enjoyed the video and it explains to me that using a torque wrench is an indirect way to measure how tight a bolt is. I guess it is not intuitive to everyone that a bolt needs to be clean and free from binds in order to use a torque wrench effectively.

As an aside, I have trouble trying to picture an iron worker up on the structure using one of those 'crayons' to lubricate each bolt before torquing them down.

 

[ionbeam]

...I have trouble trying to picture an iron worker up on the structure using one of those 'crayons' to lubricate each bolt before torquing them down...

The pros just add an oiler to the torque gun, every bolt & washer gets a spritz. Umm,

The video shows that it is impracticable to use a torque wrench on self locking nuts like Nylocks and Staytites.

The other thing not mentioned is how critical torque is when the bolt is in compression (clamping) vs in shear.

FWIW:

 

[Geezer]

...I have trouble trying to picture an iron worker up on the structure using one of those 'crayons' to lubricate each bolt before torquing them down...

The pros just add an oiler to the torque gun, every bolt & washer gets a spritz. Umm,

Now that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[infrared]

FWIW, most shops have a click-stop style of torque wrench. For accuracy, after the torque wrench has been sitting idle, the "clicker" should be exercised a few times, before you apply the final torque value. You can do that by setting a lower torque value at first, and clicking the mechanism on the fastener a few times at the lower value, then setting the correct (higher) torque value for the job. Then the first and last fasteners will get the same torque values applied.

As for the drain plug, I am a great believer in safety wire. I think it is a mistake to use more torque than needed, if the real intent is just to avoid the possibility of something coming apart. Torque it (to reasonable torque values, of course), then safety-wire it, and be done with it. No worries. I just bought a magnetic drain plug for my FJR; and it came drilled for safety wire (all right!).

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[RaYzerman19]

A true crush washer (e.g. OEM Yammie) is designed to crush when it is tight enough. So if you use those, it's like a spark plug crush washer..... 1/2 turn after it is snug contact to base and starts to crush. Any more than that and you're not doing anything but crushing the washer until it is flat. I don't use these, so I don't know at what torque they start to crush..........

I use Honda aluminum flat washers, incorrectly IMHO called crush washers, torqued to 22 ft. lbs...... I consider it a critical fastener as I would hate to be without a drain plug..... one of these washers will last a very long time and they're 35 cents at your local Honda car dealer. You might need 2 or 3 in the lifetime of your bike as they will (should) deform a miniscule amount each oil change.

To calibrate your torque wrench, make a mandrel with a 12" arm on it, from which you hang a weight. Appropriate socket arrangement on the end of the shaft. Whatever weight you use hanging on the arm at 12" is the reading you should get on your torque wrench. I suggest varying weights for various points in the range of your wrench. Check it frequently.

Plastic washers...... playing with fire. Hot and cold cycles are going to come into play.

 

[Grey13]

I've done this same thing on my CB750.

To the OP: I'd also double check the oil pan to make sure it's not cracked / split from over tightening. I ended up having to swap out the oil pan on the CB750 because of that.

Ray

 

[woodcycl]

Love how these posts take on a life of their own ... makes for interesting reading.

Okay, as the OP, here is what I tried and finally succeeded doing to resolve the issue:

1. Went to O'Reily's auto parts and picked up a 14mm x 1.5 drain plug that is meant to be a little oversize and create new threads on its own.

Result: I was never able to get this plug to take a hold while attempting to screw it in. And, when it did barely grab ahold, it would end up not being perpendicular and with the slightest movement to re-seat it at 90 degrees, it would let go again. After about 45 minutes of trying this with no luck, I gave up. I returned it to O'Reilys.

2. Found a YouTube video online for this specific problem and this guy's solution is to use a drain plug that is identical but twice as long. The video shows it inserting and as the flange/washer gets closer to the oil pan, it begins to tighten. I wasn't sure I understood the mechanics behind this if the bolt is the same identical diameter. But, for a few $$ I thought I'd try it. Went to NAPA auto parts and they had a 14mm x 1.5 x 1inch long (the oem plug is .5 inches in length) in stock believe it or not. So, after $2.39 I came home and VOILA ... it worked!!! Don't understand it, but I'm good to go for now.

For anyone interested in using this method of resolution: NAPA Part Number 704-1383 Oil Drain Plug Gasket $1.99 plus tax

Here's the YouTube video if anyone is interested -- it does spend some time with him buying a plug that is TOO long and having to shorten it to 2x the length. I was luck enough to buy one exactly 2x length:

 

[dcarver]

Must be the original bolt doesn't engage all the female threads. The new bolt, being longer, gets to tap into some virgin threads. Kinda like a guy who is well endowed gets to enjoy..oh crap, never mind!