dcarver
Well-known member
Hang in there Howie, you will win.
BTW, my Harley doesn't have these issues! Just sayin'.... :laughingsmiley:
BTW, my Harley doesn't have these issues! Just sayin'.... :laughingsmiley:
Everything Bust has ever said about you is true.Odot's jihad in full force. Enjoy, howie.
It might just be a BIG victory. If the bike can't read the TPS properly, the engine isn't going to run properly. Keeping fingers crossed for you.Minor victory tonight....got rid of the #16 fault code....
Anyway, while I had the rail off, I checked the resistance on the TPS, which can cause a #16, but it read just fine. Plugged the TPS connector back in and the #16 disappeared!
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Small victory, but a win is a win, right?
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Same here..Keeping fingers crossed for you.
That seems to make sense. The ECU only tells the injectors to open for a specific amount of time. The ECU would have been tuned for lower throttle positions taking into account the lower fuel pressure. With the bypass stuck closed, the ECU would still open the injectors for the same amount of time, but the higher pressure would push more fuel through during that time.What I need to ask the collective is fairly simple....IF the FP regulator IS the problem, and it won't "open", allowing fuel return and lower fuel pressure, would the increased fuel pressure be enough to prevent the Feej from running more than just a few seconds? I have not been able to get the bike to run more than 10-15 seconds at a time, yet the brand new plugs are very black and sooty, as in "WAY TOO RICH!" Not wet, mind you, as in an extremely flooded engine, but very black and sooty.
While using the cold start FI map....The ECU only tells the injectors to open for a specific amount of time...With the bypass stuck closed, the ECU would still open the injectors for the same amount of time, but the higher pressure would push more fuel through during that time.
Damn....never thought about that! WOT fuel pressure combined with cold-start map = piss-poor running.While using the cold start FI map.
Ok Alan, your a fart smeller, but why does the cold start have anything to do with it? From my understanding, injection pulse is strictly a time based evolution that the ECU determines. During cold enrichment, the ECU simply adds more time to the injector pulse based on coolant and intake temperatures. As the engine warms, it decreases the amount of enrichment by reducing injection duration (time).While using the cold start FI map....The ECU only tells the injectors to open for a specific amount of time...With the bypass stuck closed, the ECU would still open the injectors for the same amount of time, but the higher pressure would push more fuel through during that time.
Not quite. The fuel pump itself has a Pressure Relief Valve (completely independent of the FPR) that dumps excess fuel pressure back to the tank (if necessary) long before it hit's the fuel rail. And it's not 'unused fuel that is returned from the fuel rail back to the tank via the fuel pump spigot, but *excess pressure* is dumped when necessary to keep a CONSTANT pressure differential.The Gen I is a "return feed" FI system. That is, when the fuel injector rail is pressurized by the fuel pump, unused fuel is returned to the tank via a spigot on the bottom of the fuel pump.
While the high vacuum does signal the FPR to release pressurized fuel from the rail reducing the fuel pressure, it does this to achieve a CONSTANT pressure differential between fuel pressure and intake manifold pressure effectively keeping fuel flow constant (from the ECU and injector's eyes). Semantics, I know, but I think it's an important distinction.At high manifold vacuum conditions, i.e., idle and low to medium throttle openings, the fuel pressure regulator, which works off manifold vacuum, is open, allowing pressure to be bled off the fuel rail back to the tank. This lowers the fuel pressure to the injectors, effectively reducing the fuel flow when it's not needed, at idle and low throttle openings.
Again, amount of fuel is not controlled by the FPR or the total amount of fuel pressure. FPR is just there to keep the pressure differential between fuel pressure and intake manifold pressure CONSTANT. Injector pulse duration determines how much fuel is injected and is calculated based on a known, CONSTANT, fuel pressure differential by the ECU.As the throttle opening increases, the vacuum at the manifold drops, and the fuel pressure regulator closes incrementally based on the amount of intake vacuum (EDIT: should be intake pressure). So at high throttle openings, vacuum drops, the FP regulator closes and fuel return to the tank stops, increasing fuel pressure at the injectors as needed for large throttle/high rpm operation.
I am following your line of thinking here, however, just because you get *flow* from the fuel pump, doesn't necessarily mean you are getting proper *pressure*. I thought you replaced the fuel pump? Is that not correct? The other big question is: On a properly running FJR, how much fuel is actually returned by the FPR to the tank at idle? LIttle? Lots?So for anyone with a normally operating system, if you disconnected the return fuel line from the FP regulator at idle, fuell would flow out of it, as the FP regulator would be open to allow return feed to the tank.
HOWEVER, I get NO fuel flow out of the regulator outlet at idle which means one of two things....my fuel pump is toast from the rust clogging, or my FP regulator is toast from the rust clogging. Yet when I pull the fuel feed line off the fuel rail, fuel flows like a mofo when I trigger the pump. Like I've said previously, it'll fill up a quart mayonaise jar in about 10 seconds, so the pump appears to be okay.
I think that is a very possible outcome. However, just one of many. :blink:What I need to ask the collective is fairly simple....IF the FP regulator IS the problem, and it won't "open", allowing fuel return and lower fuel pressure, would the increased fuel pressure be enough to prevent the Feej from running more than just a few seconds? I have not been able to get the bike to run more than 10-15 seconds at a time, yet the brand new plugs are very black and sooty, as in "WAY TOO RICH!" Not wet, mind you, as in an extremely flooded engine, but very black and sooty.
A good question I don't know the answer to. I think your next step is to either borrow or purchase a Fuel Pressure Regulator. Or somehow test it's operation with a pressure gauge? And ditto for the fuel pump if it's the original one that had all that crap in it.Basically, I'm asking is the fuel pressure THAT critical just for running at idle? May sound like a stupid question, but I'm graspin' at straws here, folks.
ASSuming that the run problem is fuel related, the issues will be too little fuel, too much fuel or improperly timed fuel delivery. I only mentioned the Cold Start FI map because it will take a possible over rich condition and put it way over the top. RH's black sooty plugs reinforce the too rich scenario. If RH's engine were up to operating temperature so that the Cold Start map is not being executed, there is a chance that his engine would run. Maybe not run well, but it would run.Hang in there buddy...
Ok Alan, your a fart smeller, but why does the cold start have anything to do with it?...While using the cold start FI map.
I've no doubt it is VERY critical. The attempt was simply to see if I could even get the sucker to idle more than 10-15 seconds without stalling. My logic told me "at crank/idle, vacuum is at its highest, so FPR is at its 'openest'", since for any point in the "run" cycle, at crank/idle is when the pressure to the injectors is at its lowest. By eliminating the FPR in the chain altogether, just for an idle test, I hoped I might pinpoint an FPR issue.If I understand you correctly, you bypassed the FPR altogether in your last go-around? Though I surely don't know for certain, I would think that would be a bad thing. I think it's a fairly critical part of the system.
Well....there might be the issue. I "know" the injectors are good, because I had them professionally cleaned, flowed, etc. I can NOT say the pump is "good", at least good in the sense that it is up to the task of running an FJR. The pump IS pumping...flow is high, but without actually doing a pressure test, I can't say with 100% certainty that it actually is "good". As Rad pointed out...Since you know the pump and injectors are good, I would next be looking at the FPR itself. Then perhaps the fuel rail (clogged?), or one of the lines? I guess the question is, where else in the system could that rust gunk have caused a flow/pressure problem?
...my problem may hearken back to the fuel pump itself. I have been, and quite possibly incorrectly, assuming that a surgical cleaning of my pump took the pump out of the equation. But it's VERY possible that the original rust infestation didn't so much as plug the pump (which of course it did) but actually wrecked the pump in the process.Volume does not equal pressure. A pump can have volume but no pressure.
Yep...the inside of the fuel rail is mirror smooth.Might as well have run sand through everything. Bet the inside of the rail is clean though.
"Mostly smooth" is being VERY charitable. Alan mentioning the "popping" is what comes to mind. As I mentioned, the bike will run for a few seconds, but many, if not all the times it dies again, it is accompanied by backfiring at the moment of death. Too low a pressure from a bad pump would definitely cause a lean condition.A too lean condition will usually cause popping and rough running. I believe I read that for the few seconds the engine runs it is mostly smooth. Too rich will cause bogging, intolerance of the throttle being twisted and as the plugs load up with excess unburnt fuel you get flame-out.
You meant "Fuel Pressure Regulator", didn't you?Yup. You NEED to get that fuel pump checked out. And frankly, after seeing the photos of that mess, I would replace the Fuel Pressure Sensor no matter what. Heaven forbid you end up getting a new fuel pump just to have all that **** that's still in the FPR go through it and the injectors.
You know anybody that has an FJR that you can borrow their fuel pump or FPR? That would be a cheap, if not time-consuming way to diagnose everything.
Hell, ain't that what wimmins is for???Guess you won't be letting your poor FJR sit with a half empty tank anytime soon, will you? I thought I was hard on my dirty ol whore, but you are just plain abusive to your gal.
Back atcha, Nancy.Oh yeah, :****:
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