Shifting problem - stuck in second

[wfooshee]

Preloading the shifter is a Bad Thing, as it forces a shift fork against the gear it's about to move. The gear is spinning at a speed depending on road speed or engine speed, depending on which side of the ratio is splined to which axle, and of course the shift fork is NOT a rotating part.

Wear on the shift fork cause the shift to not engage as deeply, which can wear the dogs into an angle, which pushes the gear wheel into the shift fork, which then wears further, which makes the shifts even less fully engaged, which wears the dogs........ ad infinitum.

I don't pre-load the shifter under any circumstances, but my bike was used, with 41,000 on the clock when I bought it, and while the original owner is a talented rider, I can't speak for his transmission habits.

Worn shift fork from my 4th gear experience last summer:

Corners worn off the dogs of 4th gear. When 4th was selected, it rode that angle rather than a flat surface, which produced a sideways force pushing the wheel back into the fork. The wear started as the fork wore, reducing the engagement distance achieved when selecting 4th.

Ridge in the channel the shift fork rides, on the new 4th gear:

Lack of ridge on my 4th gear:

 

[sapest]

Preloading/shifter tapping is something I have been doing to try to find out if doing it solves my problem or makes it worse. Not my normal routine. I don't want to have a "Bad Thing" experience, one of the reasons I dont do clutch free shifts.

Clutch bleed coming up. Would air in the clutch line manifest itself as an on again/off again problem?

-Steve

 

[bluesdog]

To clarify: When I pre-load the shifter, it is a very, very light pressure indeed, similar to covering the brake lever. It's not as if you were applying pressure sufficient to actually shift, just as when covering the brake you are not applying sufficient force to apply the brakes.

The intent is to decrease the delay caused by having your toe not touching the shifter - then pulling in the clutch - then raising the toe to shift.

This is particularly effective when shifting from first to second, and again when shifting from third to fourth.

When done correctly, there is no 'clunk', and no missed shift.

There is zero movement of the shifter during the pre-load phase; just sufficient pressure to maintain contact as there is when you are covering the brake lever.

 

[RossKean]

Are you sure that you did not over-tighten the pivot on the shifter when it was re-assembled? Its easy to do and will prevent (or at least hinder) the shift mechanism from "ratcheting" between shifts. Behavior could be different as a function of ambient temperatures.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Put the bike on the centerstand and operate the shifter with your hand.

Kneel down and turn the rear wheel with your right hand and operate the shift lever with your left.

How easy does the lever spring back to its normal resting position after you execute a shift?

It will be obvious if the lever has too much friction.

Push up or down on the lever and turn the wheel. You'll hear the transmission click into each gear as the dogs engage.

 

[wfooshee]

To clarify: When I pre-load the shifter, it is a very, very light pressure indeed, similar to covering the brake lever. It's not as if you were applying pressure sufficient to actually shift, just as when covering the brake you are not applying sufficient force to apply the brakes.
The intent is to decrease the delay caused by having your toe not touching the shifter - then pulling in the clutch - then raising the toe to shift.

This is particularly effective when shifting from first to second, and again when shifting from third to fourth.

When done correctly, there is no 'clunk', and no missed shift.

There is zero movement of the shifter during the pre-load phase; just sufficient pressure to maintain contact as there is when you are covering the brake lever.

I wouldn't call that pre-loading, then, but still, you'd be amazed how much pressure you're applying if you're actually touching the lever. Look at how long the pedal is compared to the side with the pushrod. There's a reason it's called a lever......

 

[sapest]

Thx again for all the suggestions. Dealer has the bike, re-bled clutch. Service mgr took it for a long ride last night, and except for finding neutral, he thinks everything is normal. For the 3 days before they had the bike, I would say the same. Notchy, but OK shifting, never a lock up, hard to find neutral from 1st.

Sigh.

I will pick it up today and see what happens next.

-Steve

 

[wfooshee]

Mine had always been hard to find neutral from second. No big deal, I had no objection to going all the way down to first and then neutral, but it aggravated me that second, being next to neutral, should be able to get there directly.

After my shift drum issues last summer, wherein I replaced the shift drum and both transmission axles and all gears, I can now select neutral from first or from second just as easily.

Apparently that half-click is sensitive to what may be bike-to-bike tolerances.

 

[sapest]

Neutral up from first, at a stop, is almost impossible. Down from second, only slightly easier. Moving at 2-3 mph, no problem, from either direction.

Never a problem finding neutral at a stop in the past.

Current theory - lubing the pivot solved the original problem. The clutch soak has introduced just enough drag to make finding neutral difficult.

Hopefully a few hundred miles and this will solve itself.

-Steve

 

[infrared]

Sapest,

Have you experimented with different number settings on the clutch lever? Sounds like all is reasonably well, but the clutch lever does not fully disengage the clutch. A clutch soak should make this problem better, unless there is foreign matter still sticking to the clutch plates. Were the clutch plates clean, when you did the soak?

Even if the dealer bled the clutch, there may still be some air left in the clutch hydraulics. One night, pull the clutch handle all the way to the grip, and tie it there (pulled in fully) overnight. Next morning, let the clutch lever out slowly, and work the lever slowly several times. This trick can sometimes help with any remaining air in there. Check the clutch fluid level, at the sight window.

 

[sapest]

Due to hand injury I have Pazzo's set @ first position. I changed to '3' on the ride home from the dealers, no improvement.

Will try the clutch thing in the next couple of days. Perhaps that's all there is to it.

The plates were clean as could be. As many others have mentioned, only first and last were wet. No material on the plate faces or collected in the bottom of the basket area.

thx

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Something to try and should work when trying tp find neutral.

Let the clutch out slightly, just for a little movement, then shift to neutral.

That should help you get to neutral.


Also, just prior to being stopped (if going to neutral)2-5 MPH, it should be easier to shift into neutral whole slowly moving.

Lastly, and not to start an oil thread debate, about a year ago, I switched to full synthetic Motul 7100, 10w40.

It shifts considerably/noticably easier/smoother. Finding neutral, piece of cake.

 

[sapest]

Scott, et al -

It's been about 1000 km's since my last post.

Strapped the lever down again overnight and followed the forum suggested method for moving any air bubbles into the reservoir.

Slowly rolling up to a stop, yes Neutral is easy to find.

Stopped in first, can't do it, no matter how delicate I try to be, the effort to move the lever up blows thru Neutral and I'm in Second gear. Rocking the bike, or letting the clutch out a bit, and then in again - these two techniques do not help me so far. Maybe I am doing it wrong.

Will try different variations of these two actions.

Stopped in Second (does not matter how I ended up in Second, usually I come to a stop in First, then up to Second trying to find Neutral) I can use my heel to tap the lever down to Neutral, if I use the ball of my foot, I dont have the control necessary and I am back in First.

Switched to Motul 7100 last yr. Used that oil for the clutch soak. Didnt see nearly the improvement/changes on the FJR as I did when I switched on my last bike - V* 1300.

After two clutch bleeds, could there still be air in the system? I suppose its possible.

Could I have done something wrong in re-assembly after the clutch soak, yes its possible.

I want my Neutral 'piece of cake' back. That's how it used to work. It's fairly minor, but it bugs the crap out of me now.

"After my shift drum issues last summer, wherein I replaced the shift drum and both transmission axles and all gears, I can now select neutral from first or from second just as easily"

Is this where I am headed? Sure hope not.

-Steve

 

[infrared]

Scott, et al - It's been about 1000 km's since my last post. After two clutch bleeds, could there still be air in the system? I suppose its possible. Could I have done something wrong in re-assembly after the clutch soak, yes its possible. -Steve

Steve,

It still sounds like a dragging clutch issue to me, not the transmission. Another bleed of the clutch may help. There should be a spec for the total thickness of the clutch plate pack (max and min), and you may be just one steel or one fiber plate over the limit. Warped clutch plates, or a problem (even debris) in the the clutch housing might cause this, but a mis-assembly is more likely. I have no experience on the 2012s, so hopefully somebody here can advise you on that.

Best,

infrared

 

[sapest]

Lost Neutral started (or at least was discovered) after the clutch soak. That makes me think its something I didnt do correctly when I re-assembled it. The FSM says to replace the wire circlip if removed, I reused the original. Could it be that ?

A warped disc? I did not check any of them. They were all very clean, so debris is not the issue. Very careful with the pink dots!

I am not sure I understand the over limit comment. The same number of plates that came out went back in.

I have asked my dealer to order another clutch cover gasket. I think I will as them to re-do what I did, re-assemble the clutch pack, etc.

If anyone knows the total clutch pack thickness values, plse let me know.

Thx

- Steve

 

[infrared]

Lost Neutral started (or at least was discovered) after the clutch soak. That makes me think its something I didnt do correctly when I re-assembled it. The FSM says to replace the wire circlip if removed, I reused the original. Could it be that ? A warped disc? I did not check any of them. They were all very clean, so debris is not the issue. I am not sure I understand the over limit comment. I think I will as them to re-do what I did, re-assemble the clutch pack, etc. If anyone knows the total clutch pack thickness values, plse let me know. Thx - Steve

Steve,

"Over the limit" there means that the total stack of clutch steels and fiber disks ends up thicker than the specs for the maximum thickness of the entire stack. Debris can be loose in the clutch basket, as well as on the clutch disks. The first disk going into the clutch basket needs to go all the way in, and each disk after that one has to go in with no hang-ups. Watch for any burrs on the inner and outer edges of the disks, although that would be unlikely on a 2012. The runs in the clutch basket should be smooth on the inside edges, where the clutch plates have to move in and out.

This will probably be a very minor hang-up, and easy to fix once you find it.

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yea, there's still something wrong. My old 04 never was like that and the newer bikes have more bearings for smoother shifting yet.

I agree, the clutch, for what ever reason, is still dragging, Your not doing anything wrong.

I'm not sure about the FJR (never had my clutch off (or any issues), but the FZ is very similar. It also has the dots and in the shop manual, shows the FIRST installed STEEL PLATE is different than the rest.(per the OEM manual).Why, dunno.

The pressure plate and inner clutch "Boss" (center part that spins) also have marks that line up. IDK about the FJR (I don't have my shop manual anymore)

https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d7a0f87002275461da71/clutch

Looking at the parts fisch for the FJR, it also has the ONE different part # clutch plate. Plate # 9 and #17 are different.

Checking bearing #16, release bearing wouldn't hurt either.

I haven't heard of the clutch slave cylinder having any issues BUT, if its leaking air into it, the clutch of course will ALWAYS be engauged to some point. If you re-bleed it, do you get any air bubbles showing up again??

 

[wfooshee]

By the way, the adjustment on the lever adjusts NOTHING about the actual clutch operation. All it adjusts is the lever's rest position. How far the lever moves before it actuates anything hydraulically doesn't change.

That may change how far from the bar it is when you get slippage, but that's only because it started a different distance. Thus you can adjust for hand size, which is all it's there for.

The positions of the pistons in the cylinders is not affected at all by the lever adjustment, and they would have to be in order for that adjustment to actually adjust the clutch. It's NOT like adjusting slack in an old cable-operated clutch!

 

[sapest]

Steve,

"Over the limit" there means that the total stack of clutch steels and fiber disks ends up thicker than the specs for the maximum thickness of the entire stack. Debris can be loose in the clutch basket, as well as on the clutch disks. The first disk going into the clutch basket needs to go all the way in, and each disk after that one has to go in with no hang-ups. Watch for any burrs on the inner and outer edges of the disks, although that would be unlikely on a 2012. The runs in the clutch basket should be smooth on the inside edges, where the clutch plates have to move in and out.

This will probably be a very minor hang-up, and easy to fix once you find it.

Cheers,

Infrared

Understood - over the limit - my point/confusion is, I put back what I took out, in the same order. The only difference should have been the thickness of the oil on each part as it went back on the drum. Everything behind the circlip had to be right, since the circlip tolerance is tight. After that, I dont recall anything untoward, each piece went on the basket nice and easy, oil all over them, of course.

Perhaps I missed something, no doubt that is possible.

-Steve

 

[sapest]

Yea, there's still something wrong. My old 04 never was like that and the newer bikes have more bearings for smoother shifting yet.
I agree, the clutch, for what ever reason, is still dragging, Your not doing anything wrong.

I'm not sure about the FJR (never had my clutch off (or any issues), but the FZ is very similar. It also has the dots and in the shop manual, shows the FIRST installed STEEL PLATE is different than the rest.(per the OEM manual).Why, dunno.

The pressure plate and inner clutch "Boss" (center part that spins) also have marks that line up. IDK about the FJR (I don't have my shop manual anymore)

https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d7a0f87002275461da71/clutch

Looking at the parts fisch for the FJR, it also has the ONE different part # clutch plate. Plate # 9 and #17 are different.

Checking bearing #16, release bearing wouldn't hurt either.

I haven't heard of the clutch slave cylinder having any issues BUT, if its leaking air into it, the clutch of course will ALWAYS be engauged to some point. If you re-bleed it, do you get any air bubbles showing up again??

When dealer did bleed number 2, they reported nothing, no air at all.
I was very careful about observing the dots and triangles as I put things back. Same for the different plates and their locations.

I do not recall the pressure plate and clutch basket having alignment marks. Can someone confirm this is true for an FJR?

Perhaps this is where I have gone wrong. . . .

-Steve