Shifting problem - stuck in second

[sapest]

Clarification -

Real Pazzo's, installed by Marcus hizself. Pazzo is about 15 minutes from me.

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Do the Pazzo's use the OEM bushing?

 

[HotRodZilla]

Yes

 

[sapest]

Swapped OEM clutch lever and no change.

Set at 1 or 5 and Neutral precludes finding Neutral at a stop. Kick up to 2nd and heel down to Neutral still works fine.

Putting the Pazzo back on.

Once the Pazzo is back, I want to reconfirm for myself that changing the lever position affects finding Neutral.

If so, then I think that eliminates air in fluid, slave cylinder, and everything under the clutch cover.

Does that make sense?

thx

-Steve

 

[wfooshee]

OEM lever not changing the effect no matter where it's set is absolutely expected. Setting the lever position makes no change in the operation of the clutch, just where the lever sits on the mechanism. The master cylinder rest position does not change.

I don't know if that's the case with the Pazzo lever, never having even seen one myself. If it changes with adjusting the lever, then i think something is wrong with the lever.

As for finding neutral from 1st better than from second, or vice versa, it's not unheard of. When I got my bike in 2007 I could not get neutral from second, but had no issue from 1st. Didn't think anything about it, as I run all the way down to first as I'm stopping anyway, so popping to neutral if I needed to was not a problem. I never needed it from second. If I'm reading your posts right, that's the opposite from your case.

When I replaced the shift drum and transmission internals last summer, that changed. Neutral is easy from either side. I can get it from 2nd, I can get it from 1st, doesn't matter any more. Same clutch, just reassembled, didn't even bleed the line because I never opened it. Neutral acted different, though, with different stuff inside the box.

That may sound more ominous than I mean for it to. There's no adjustment for the position of the shifter and shift drum relative to each other, but mine was obviously different with the new parts.

In your case, I would actually go to the trouble of pulling the clutch disks out and manually working the shifter as someone turns the wheel for you. Get the clutch out of the equation and see how the shifter actually operates. Clutch disks are EASY to remove, takes all of 5 minutes. Let's see if you have a shifter problem rather than a clutch problem.....

 

[sapest]

Not wanting to be misunderstood, comfirming the following -

Reinstall of OEM lever, no solution, no matter the setting, no Neutral.

My comment about accessing Neutral from 2nd was my way of saying this method works no matter which lever is installed.

Prior to this problem appearing, accessing Neutral was equally easy from 1st or 2nd.

Have reinstalled the Pazzo, and it acts the same, set at 5/6 and problem is gone and friction point is moved away from the handlebar.

Pazzo on a 1, friction point is where I like it, and my little friend returns.

I think its time to revisit Pazzo and show them what I have found before I do anything else.

Thx

-Steve

 

[wfooshee]

I wonder if setting the Pazzo at 1 simply moves it close enough to the bar that it can't fully release the clutch before it touches the handlebar? In other words, it doesn't have room to move the master cylinder fully through its motion?

That shouldn't be possible, but if something's not the right size or fit, I could see it happening.

 

[sapest]

Hopefully I will find the answer on Monday.

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I wonder if setting the Pazzo at 1 simply moves it close enough to the bar that it can't fully release the clutch before it touches the handlebar? In other words, it doesn't have room to move the master cylinder fully through its motion?
That shouldn't be possible, but if something's not the right size or fit, I could see it happening.

That's what I was referring to earlier. If the lever was machined too much (where the clutch MC shaft sticks out), it wouldn't go in as far as it should.

Unfortunately, if the OEM lever didn't "fix" it, probably not.

I think we all agree, the clutch is still dragging causing the hard shifting while stopped..

 

[RaYzerman19]

I have the Pazzo's and you will get clutch drag with settings 1 thru 3, I set mine on 4 and you have to be conscious to pull the lever to the bar when stopped. If you're moving, things tend to syncronize. This explains why you're not seeing issues when you set the Pazzo's at 5 or 6........ at setting 1, I'd bet for sure you'll have issues.

The other thing to check is for worn bushing at the lever, a small amount of wear could influence it.

 

[sapest]

Bushing is next on my radar after talking to Pazzo.

-Steve

 

[sapest]

No one home at Pazzo today.

Sent email. Leaving for 10 days in Alberta, so will chase this down when I return.

Will post update, thx

-Steve

Best of luck to all IBR rally participants!

 

[sapest]

Pazzo confirms I have the correct lever.

I think have I found the issue with the lever.

Compare these two photos-





Note the bushing position changes depending on the lever setting. About 5/32's by my rough measure.

So now I am thinking I could shim the hole in the bushing to force the clutch shaft to move further when the lever is set to 1.

Any thoughts on how thick, and what to use?

My concern about shimming - what happens if I forget or someone (service tech) moves the lever to 5 or 6, will this over-extend the shaft and damage something?

Thx

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

A couple of options;

The easiest:

The clutch lever should be cup shaped (where the MC shaft would enter). Pick up a VERY SMALL flat washer that will fit in there. A dab of marine silicone, and stab it in there.. The lever and silicone will hold it and give you the extra 5/32"

Depending on far out the MC shaft is when FULLY PUSHED IN,( if there's still a bit of shaft sticking out) making a small "CUP" shaped "shim" slipped over the shaft would work.

If there is room for a cup shim, I don't think the hardware store would have anything like that.

I would start with a bolt (the shoulder) with the correct OD. Then drill the center (drill press would be best(held with a vise grip) so it fits snugly on the shaft. A little marine silicone to secure it wouldn't hurt.

Another option would be to pull the shaft out of the MC and have a good welder put one or two spot welds(MIG) on the end of the shaft (lever end).

You'd have to keep the rest of it cool so as not to damage any rubber parts. Take an over length measurement before and then after and grind down the shaft the 5/32".

 

[RaYzerman19]

I'm not quite understanding what you are trying to accomplish..... the photos show you get more travel with the adjustment set at 6, which is the way it is designed. I set mine at 4 and it works, but you should know I have a Gen 1 clutch slave (more travel in proportion to the lever travel, but the effort increases somewhat). It means you reach further, but that's the price you pay. The now greater travel pushes the MC shaft in further, which ensures the clutch disengages when the lever is pulled to the bar. Lengthening the MC shaft is the same as adjusting the lever, you'll still have to reach further. I'm not sure why you want the lever to be set at 1. If you shim it, won't the lever will be further away from the bar.......

However, I'm thinking your GenII slave may require you to set the lever at 5? I can't recall what mine was....... maybe the better solution is a Gen1 slave, but you'll still have to set the lever at 4 or 3 at the minimum.

 

[sapest]

R-19

I bought the Pazzo to get setting 1 because I have an injured left hand.

I dont believe shimming the bushing hole will move the lever out.

Scott

The hole in the bushing is approx 9/32's deep. I dont think that filling half the hole is smart, and I dont have the tools or skills the cap the shaft (effectively making it longer), which I now think is the best idea. Taking it all apart to weld on extra material etc - I can think of a number of ways this can go sideways.

I have sent the same photos to Marcus @ Pazzo. Will see what he suggests.

Ps - the Honda bushing is the same as the Yamaha part and about $2 cheaper (@ least in Canada)

Thx

-Steve

 

[wfooshee]

Shimming might limit the relaxed position of the clutch spring in the basket, preventing it from reaching its full clamping force, and possibly resulting in a slipping clutch. Shimming only limits the range of motion, which is already insufficient for you. You're just moving the limit from the end of the travel to the beginning of the travel.

UNLESS ------ there is an issue in the clutch basket. If something is wrong inside there which allows the pushrod from the slave cylinder to move too far before anything happens, then nothing you do at the lever will overcome it. If that is the case, you do not have full range of motion in the clutch assembly itself. It is possible you are working this problem from the wrong end of the clutch system. I know it's been to the dealer, they say yada yada yada yada.

How far does the lever move before you encounter resistance in the hydraulics? My lever, measured at the end of the lever, moves about 5/8 inch before the hydraulics start to work. In other words, about 5/8-inch of play. It pulls all the way to the bar whether it's at 1 or 5, and the clutch is fully released before it gets to the bar, tested by putting the bike on the centerstand and seeing if I can move the rear wheel with the bike in 1st, squeezing the clutch lever and moving the rear wheel with my foot. In other words, my clutch actuation has sufficient range of motion.

I am curious how much movement your lever has from rest before it starts the clutch operation, and whether the clutch releases enough to freewheel the rear wheel while on the centerstand, regardless of lever adjustment. Perhaps you might find that it freewheels at 6 but not at 1. If that's the case, and if the lever has excessive play before engaging anything hydraulically, you may have an issue of some kind in the basket. There's going to be a certain amount of play at the beginning, but how much is there, actually? Too much, and you can't get enough clutch action.

Thing is, I can't find any specification on an acceptable amount of play in the clutch lever.

 

[sapest]

wfooshee - thank you for your observations. I will try your tests soon and report back.

New info.

Put the OEM lever back on to compare length of throw.

@ Position 1, furthest out, now I have Neutral again. This is direct opposite of same test done June 26. Post 65. H'mmmmm.

Pazzo Position 1 (closest in) moves the bushing less than OEM Position 5.

Pazzo Position 6 moves the bushing even further than OEM Position 1.

Inconsistent results are annoying. Maybe the clutch basket is still the source of the problem, since my taking it apart to do the soak.

Stay tuned for results of tests as above.

- Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I don't think you'll find anything in the basket.

As you posted above, its simply a matter of how far one lever (or the other), pushes in the clutch MC shaft (for the clutch).

If it doesn't push in enough, your NOT getting full movement of the shaft and ultimately NOT enough disengagement of the clutch(thus the dragging clutch)

Just as a side note, as I re-call with my old Gen I, I had the lever set at 3 (about the middle). Clutch engagement was right about in the middle of the clutch travel

 

[RossKean]

Partially filling the bushing hole (temporarily) would take all of ten minutes to try. Just put a small piece of hard material in the hole and reassemble. A more permanent fix might be some JB Weld. I truly don't know if this will do anything for you. The (apparent) inconsistent nature of your symptoms (as per your post, above), suggests to me that there may still be an issue with air in the system - doesn't take very much. Alternatively, you could have a problem with either the master or slave cylinder.