Shifting problem - stuck in second

[sapest]

By the way, the adjustment on the lever adjusts NOTHING about the actual clutch operation. All it adjusts is the lever's rest position. How far the lever moves before it actuates anything hydraulically doesn't change.
That may change how far from the bar it is when you get slippage, but that's only because it started a different distance. Thus you can adjust for hand size, which is all it's there for.

The positions of the pistons in the cylinders is not affected at all by the lever adjustment, and they would have to be in order for that adjustment to actually adjust the clutch. It's NOT like adjusting slack in an old cable-operated clutch!

With a due respect to all, this thread, and many others, have comments that the lever position will or wont effect the clutch operation.My own experience, one hand on one bike, makes me agree with the 'wont' crowd. (Talking hydraulic clutches only)

But my mind is open, there are much smarter people on this forum then I and it was easy enough to change the lever setting.

Now back to the original problem - clutch drag is making me sad

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yea, there's still something wrong. My old 04 never was like that and the newer bikes have more bearings for smoother shifting yet.
I agree, the clutch, for what ever reason, is still dragging, Your not doing anything wrong.

I'm not sure about the FJR (never had my clutch off (or any issues), but the FZ is very similar. It also has the dots and in the shop manual, shows the FIRST installed STEEL PLATE is different than the rest.(per the OEM manual).Why, dunno.

The pressure plate and inner clutch "Boss" (center part that spins) also have marks that line up. IDK about the FJR (I don't have my shop manual anymore)

https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d7a0f87002275461da71/clutch

Looking at the parts fisch for the FJR, it also has the ONE different part # clutch plate. Plate # 9 and #17 are different.

Checking bearing #16, release bearing wouldn't hurt either.

I haven't heard of the clutch slave cylinder having any issues BUT, if its leaking air into it, the clutch of course will ALWAYS be engauged to some point. If you re-bleed it, do you get any air bubbles showing up again??

When dealer did bleed number 2, they reported nothing, no air at all.
I was very careful about observing the dots and triangles as I put things back. Same for the different plates and their locations.

I do not recall the pressure plate and clutch basket having alignment marks. Can someone confirm this is true for an FJR?

Perhaps this is where I have gone wrong. . . .

-Steve

Steve, hopefully someone here can clarify (I don't want to throw something out there that isn't true).

It is important on the FZ but thats a different animal,

The FJR shop manual would address it in the re-assembly process if there were. Just throwing that out there IF it was overlooked..

 

[sapest]

Scott

Understood, will check with my dealer. This and the clutch bundle min and max measurements.

Thx

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If its still under waranty, I would either have the service manager call Mama Yamaha or you call yourself.

While underway its fine, BUT when stopped, he TOO CANNOT GET IT INTO NEUTRAL. That is NOT normal on any bike..

There is something wrong there.

Let him show you another FJR that does that.

I strongly suspect its in the clutch/clutch release system, etc. While slightly rolling it works.. When stopped, the clutch is dragging just enough not to fully disengauge the clutch/transmission. Maybe a clutch master cylinder, lower cylinder, warped parts, etc... All your symptoms point in this direction..

I know, in California, (where Yamaha headquarters is located) They have a division that works with service departments, over the phone, to help solve these types of issues...

On my 04,(under warranty at the time), I had a corroded electrical plug under the fuel tank(water intrusion) causing issues. The local dealer couldn't find it and was on the phone with California literally on and off the day I was there trying to find it. I spent at least 6 hours there, Unfortunatly, they couldn't find the issue, The issue was later found after me searching THIS Forum.

 

[Harald]

When I bought my 07, I stalled it in the parking lot because the clutch engagement point was so close to the bar and I was used to at least a little movement before the clutch started engaging on all previous bikes. Seems to me that it would be possible to have the lever adjusted so that the clutch isn't completely disengaged (just barely dragging) when the lever is pulled all the way to the bar? I haven't actually tried to duplicate this, but with tolerances and wear this seems possible.

 

[sapest]

Scott

Thx for the words of support. Bike is out of warranty. Service mgr agrees 'something' is wrong. After paying way too much for them to find and fix the Spider bite, really solved by me with huge assistance from this forum, I want to bring them the solution before I sign the work order. In Canada we have the same dealer support arrangement, but I have zero faith in them after the Spider bite fiasco.

When I handed my dealer Q-Ken's chart of connections, they were all blown away by the quality of the info. The Yamaha support people asked for a copy too.

Possible list -

Warped disc and/or plate

Pack out of dimension spec

Pressure plate/basket mis-assembly

Debris in clutch I missed

Clutch pack mis-assembly

Since this started after I did the soak, I am going to presume its not in the clutch hydraulics, master cylinder etc

More and more I am thinking its something I did.

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well, good luck, you'll find it.

Please post what you find out...

 

[Queensland Ken]

Hi sapest,

There were a lot of people that had input into that wiring diagram, lots of stories, threads and posts.

I'd like to think that it belongs to the Forum.

I do want to upgrade it again one day.

 

[sapest]

Q-Ken

If nothing else you are the 'publisher of record'. Works for me!

-Steve

 

[sapest]

Dealer has passed on pages from FSM. There are measurements for friction plate thickness, and clutch plate thickness. Wear limits are noted for the friction plates, the clutch plates have a warpage limit. This includes the parts 'behind' the circlip, the 'damper' as its called in the FSM.

There is no mention of alignment marks for either the clutch plates or the pressure plate. Since I know there are for the former, there still may be the latter.

Left the bike at the dealers, (sons wedding this weekend) they are going to take off the cover and see what I did wrong. Hopefully its something simple and obvious.

Will advise. . . . .

-Steve

 

[sapest]

Picked up the bike from dealership.

Sum of work; lower idle speed & remove throttle cable slack.

Their feeling that there was no point in removing the clutch cover. Bonus - no bill for me.

The idle speed they set was too low and I have raised it up a bit. Still lower than what it was before. I would say a needle width above 1000 RPM marker on the tach.

New/changed observation -

With the Pazzo set at one, the friction point is immediate and the neutral problem remains.

Set at six, the friction point is almost at the end of the lever travel and there is no problem finding neutral.

Could removing throttle cable slack have affected the clutch lever action? I know the clutch lever adjustment position change did not have this effect before the bike went to the dealer.

Is there any adjustment in the lever action ? Pazzo installed the levers for me when I purchased them. Maybe I need to talk to them, or is this normal behaviour?

-Steve

 

[HotRodZilla]

That is not normal, and cable adjustment should not affect your clutch. There is no cable on the clutch, only the throttle side. All adjusting the levers does is move the lever closer or farther from the bar. It's possible that if adjusted too close you can't disengage the clutch all te way, but where the clutch engages upon let off shouldn't change, unless in the close position your not fully disengaged and you feel it sooner because it's already partly engaged.

Either way, it does not sound like your problem is fixed, and you should not accept the bike until that happens.

 

[ionbeam]

Look into the Flashy-Thing -- FLASH

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.


I don't buy the story or the idea that your problem is fixed no matter how it was explained to you. The symptoms may have changed but the root cause has yet to be found.

Without re-reading the whole thread, can your dealer duplicate your exact complaints? (Have you purchased new boots between when it shifted OK and now?)

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If, a big IF, the Pazzo clutch lever was machined off slightly, the travel (no matter how you set the
adjustment) may be off (less) slightly from the OEM lever.

IE,
It's NOT pushing the clutch master cylinder piston/rod as far in as the stocker, thus the clutch is still partially engaged/dragging.

Do you have the YAMAHA OEM lever you can try?

Plus one on the throttle cable, has nothing to do with the clutch drag. Just a sloppy/loose throttle

"With the Pazzo set at one, the friction point is immediate and the neutral problem remains. Set at six, the friction point is almost at the end of the lever travel and there is no problem finding neutral".

This, ^^^^, tends to back up my thoughts...

 

[sapest]

Gents

All helpful replies, thx

If I gave the impression that the dealer is done with me, thats my error.

It was more like "try this and let us know what you think" With the Pazzo at 6 and the lower idle speed, finding Neutral is easy. Setting the idle at a more reasonable value does not change how the Pazzo setting affects things. So I am thinking the idle speed has nothing to do with my problem. Ditto for throttle cable slack.

No, no new boots, good thought however.

My disappointment with dealer is simply that they dont have any further ideas/suggestions. Actually the mechanic did suggest installing a bleeder at the clutch reservoir banjo, and therefore confirming that there is no air in the fluid. There is some logic in this, as all this began after they did a clutch fluid change. Then he said they use a vacuum system to bleed the clutch, so would be very surprised if there was still air in the system. He also mentioned the clutch slave, but I got the sense that there would be no way to know if the slave was the problem, it would be replace seals/other parts and see what happens; he was grasping at straws a bit.

I have to dig up the OEM clutch lever, and see if I am smart enough to put it back on the bike. Perhaps that will shed some more light on whats gone wrong.

-Steve

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'd try the lever swap first.

I'm wondering if you may be loosing pressure internally in the slave cylinder.

Pulling it off for inspection (just unbolt, not drain) may show some leakage.

It doesn't appear it can be re-built, just replacement for over $100;

https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d7a0f87002275461da71/clutch

 

[HotRodZilla]

They didn't put the wrong fluid in did they? Stuff like that happens. Incorrect fluid can do all kinds of weird stuff to rubber seals and parts.

I agree that it's related to your fluid change.

 

[Queensland Ken]

The front brakes on my TLR were crook, tried everything to fix them.

Turned out that there was an aftermarket lever installed, had a different cam lobe that activated the piston.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've read of chinese made knock off levers with the same issues, (poor manufacturing tolerances), but real Pazzos??

Also, I'm not sure if the Pazzo's use the stock "sleeve" removed from the OEM lever. If so and it was NOT swapped, that would cause the issues, definitely... Not enough lever travel due to the slop at the lever..

 

[HotRodZilla]

I was just wondering if they are real Pazzos or knockoffs. Also wondering if there's any way the OP installed the clutch side inorrectly. It could happen...