Shorai Battery - not good in cold

[worldbound4now]

This link provides a small, limited test on the battery as well with good results, including starting after the battery sat in a freezer overnight.

 

[ionbeam]

As this thread progresses there are a few of things that we need to be careful with. The first is that there are several types of Lithium Ion batteries, the performance of the Lithium Iron battery sold by Shorai is different from the batteries that contain nickle or cobalt making the Shorai a safer battery. Other types of LiFe batteries use round cells made for tools like DeWalt and are not optimum for power sports.

-- Most important, read the dates on the articles. -- The batteries shipped after mid summer are not the same batteries that were sold up to March/April. In this letter Shorai/Dave says that they would have the next batch of batteries in April, they missed this date by a lot and did not have batteries for shipment until well later.

Shorai sez:

Hi,
In addition to making some changes to cell structure and the beefy terminal upgrades, we are also going to add an over-charge protection circuit to all future LFX production. Our next batch should arrive on April 25th we expect (pretty solid date, give/take a few days).

The cell structure changes alone nearly eliminate the possibility of internal cell short circuit, even if the charging system is over-voltage. Also, lifespan during high-temp storage (AZ garages, etc) will increase, and self-discharge rate is reduced even further (longer storage (time) before recharge is required).

Then the charge protection circuit will add an addtional layer of protection, pretty much insuring that the LFX cells are not affected by a rogue charging system, at all.

Frankly, though, even we are a bit surprised at the tiny return rate we have seen so far (<1/2 of 1%), and very encouraged by it. Our two new production lines - with the newest and best equipment - and the protection circuit and cell upgrades will make it even better. And we plan to continue looking for every little thing we can do to improve our LFX, going forward.

And... if we can get our volume up high enough, we hope to see cost reductions that we can pass on to you in the form of lower prices.

We're having fun, and really appreciate your support.

All the Best,

David

Shorai Tech

Link to a test found at advrider.

From Shorai, some content has been deleted but the context of the article is intact.

While there are other companies now offering Lithium-Iron based powersports batteries, all except Shorai use cylindrical cells originally made for power tool applications. Such cells are inferior to Shorai Prismatic LFX, for several reasons.
...While power-tool cells may crank a vehicle successfully, they were not originally intended for the high current discharges in starter systems. As a result, cranking performance suffers compared to Shorai LFX, and the batteries will wear out more per every star...LFX have been designed from the "ground up' to be a powersports starter battery with long lifespan and high performance, under a wide range of temperatures.

Finally there is quality control. Every Shorai LFX is built in our own ISO 9000:2008 certified factory. The primary cell ingredients are sourced from Japan, which allows us to produce the most consistent and reliable cells. Then we do individual cell quality control and matching over a six-week period, for every cell we make. This test period is two to four times longer than typical and is expensive for us. But it is worth it, in terms of product quality in the long run.

Of key note here is that statement that Shorai does cell matching which addresses a critical issue with the cells not all charging the same. This should help ensure that all the cells have a similar electrical characteristics so that all cells will charge equally and balanced. Balanced cell charging is a major component of Li battery life.

The link that RaYzerman provides was written in 12/2010, much has progressed since then and many of the concerns have been addressed. LiFeOP4 batteries are not a mature product like lead acid batteries and will continue to evolve. This does not imply that the current Li batteries are bad and the manufacturer is fixing inoperable units, it means that the batteries have an opportunity to perform better than they do today and the designers are getting the improvements into the products.

 

[worldbound4now]

Link to a test found at advrider.

Great test. It makes me even more pleased that I purchased this battery. When getting off work between 0100 and 0200 this winter, I want to be sure I have reserve power in case the FJR doesn't start on the first try. It rarely is an issue, but calling my wife at 0130 to have her come get me is not something I want to be doing (I did this once last winter when my 6 month old Westco left me stranded).

 

[FJRBluesman]

I have found some more information on this for all ya'lls reading enjoyment. I also updated the post on Page 3 post #56.

The best one to read is the ST/Owners thread. They go to extreme detail like we have here, and a ST MC LEO puts one to the test on his work bike, very interesting.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?95497-Shorai-Lithium-Iron-Batteries

https://www.ducati.ms/forums/56-superbikes/103513-anyone-tried-shorai-battery-yet.html

https://batterystuff.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/shorai-lfx-abuse-test/

This thread has become a huge wealth of knowledge and data regarding the Shorai LiFe battree. This is great stuff.

 

[SkooterG]

This thread has become a huge wealth of knowledge and data regarding the Shorai LiFe battree. This is great stuff.

Well, it's been a good discussion. I don't know about a wealth of knowledge.

I still don't how the Shorai is going to perform in cold (<50, <40) temps on a consistent basis. I also have questions about accidentally discharging the battery ruining it.

I guess I'll let other peeps be the guinea pigs for quite a while still.

 

[wheatonFJR]

...I guess I'll let other peeps be the guinea pigs for quite a while still.

Yep. Me too.

I've been burned before, rushing into things without thinking things through...just because it was the hottest thing on the Forum. I'll sit on the sidelines and let you guys show me how great it is before I plunk my $$ down this time.

Hurry up...I'm waiting... :clapping:

 

[ionbeam]

...I guess I'll let other peeps be the guinea pigs for quite a while still.

Yep. Me too...Hurry up...I'm waiting...

I'll let ya know if they work in 6-10 years as the battery nears the predicted end of life.

 

[wheatonFJR]

...I guess I'll let other peeps be the guinea pigs for quite a while still.

Yep. Me too...Hurry up...I'm waiting...

I'll let ya know if they work in 6-10 years as the battery nears the predicted end of life.

Excellent! :clapping:

I'm holding you to that deadline...

 

[Zorlac]

I'll add one more link from ST-Owners, Twighlight Error has explained some technical details as he was in the Lithium battery industry... I know Mike personally and his info is interesting.

That guy appears very technically savvy and seems to speak from experience. His quote of "What would I buy instead? An AGM Lead-Acid battery. Possibly the pinnacle of commercially available technology. Robust, simple and readily available." makes perfect sense to me.Thanks for posting those links Bluesman!

 

[Zorlac]

This link provides a small, limited test on the battery as well with good results, including starting after the battery sat in a freezer overnight.

This is right from their sales page for the FJR sized Shorai. "We recommend using these batteries in temperatures above 0 degrees Celsius."

 

[ionbeam]

I'll add one more link from ST-Owners, Twighlight Error has explained some technical details as he was in the Lithium battery industry... I know Mike personally and his info is interesting.

That guy appears very technically savvy and seems to speak from experience. His quote of "What would I buy instead? An AGM Lead-Acid battery. Possibly the pinnacle of commercially available technology. Robust, simple and readily available." makes perfect sense to me.Thanks for posting those links Bluesman!

In an earlier post I had suggested it would be wise to look at the date of the postings. The post in the ST-Owners is from 2010 and the Li battery being discussed then is not the same Li battery you would buy now in several significant ways. Several of the concerns that Twighlight Error 'explained' have been addressed with design changes earlier this year.

 

[Zorlac]

"not the same Li battery you would buy now in several significant ways."

Still carries that early adopter price tag.

Not so sure I want circuitry inside my batree anyways.

Like you said, maybe 8yrs from now, when beemers are choosing them as OEM suppliers.

 

[johndaub]

Is there a danger of getting the plugs fouled trying to start it so many times before it firing?

I certainly would not want to be abusing my starter to begin with so many attempts to start. When I leave work it is sometimes 20 degrees and the bike will have been out all day. I will stick with my Yuasa since it is a known entity (now 4 years old).

 

[ionbeam]

"not the same Li battery you would buy now in several significant ways."

Still carries that early adopter price tag.

Not so sure I want circuitry inside my batree anyways.

Like you said, maybe 8yrs from now, when beemers are choosing them as OEM suppliers.

Glad that you are happy with the State Of The Art, and that you see progress has to be instantaneous and perfect. :lol:

See ya down the road.

 

[Zorlac]

"not the same Li battery you would buy now in several significant ways."

Still carries that early adopter price tag.

Not so sure I want circuitry inside my batree anyways.

Like you said, maybe 8yrs from now, when beemers are choosing them as OEM suppliers.

Glad that you are happy with the State Of The Art, and that you see progress has to be instantaneous and perfect. :lol:

I've noticed that progress seems to happen on its own whether I like, or buy into it or not.
As a matter of fact I bought 16 plain Jane light bulbs today for $4 instead of the $10 GE 3 way CFL bulb that failed in a little over 3yrs instead of the touted 6yr lifespan.

The failed switching FET desoldered itself and fell right off the ballast PC board. <_<

Here's my big ra-ra for technology.

 

[Rider_FJR]

I have the 18 amp battery and it's going to be a cool night here in Chicago. I'm going to get up in the morning, get the bike temperature and see how long it will take to start the bike.

 

[TomInPA]

Cool! I'm riding to Quincy with Bugnatr and company tomorrow morning. I 'm more concerned whether I will start in the morning than my Shorai equipped bike.

 

[evilmedic13]

This link provides a small, limited test on the battery as well with good results, including starting after the battery sat in a freezer overnight.

This is right from their sales page for the FJR sized Shorai. "We recommend using these batteries in temperatures above 0 degrees Celsius."

2 yrs ago this may have meant something to me. Now, that my commute is 2.5 miles home form work, it's not worth the expenditure in fuel,risk, or battery discharge. I'm practically home by the time the bike would be warmed up with those temps.

Not an argument for, or against, but many here wouldn't ride in those temps unless they had to, or it was going to warm up eventually. Around here, it just isn't worth it, for me, anymore, unless I'm going somewhere worthwhile. I've already dealt with cold tires/road in combination with the idiots that drive around here, to my detriment, a snapped ankle that went 180 in a left hand lowside.

I used to ride when it was 18 degrees and I had no heated gear, no pussy involved. I guess that would be me now, but 32 degrees isn't really a ridiculous cutoff point for most, I guess that's what I was trying to say. Also, it's not like they're saying it WON'T start, it just might need a little encouragement in those temperature regimes.

My .02.

 

[Rider_FJR]

I just went out to start the bike, bike was outside all night. At 45F with 18 amp battery,, it started strong on first try.

 

[Rider_FJR]

Test two.

Bike was outside all night. Temp on the bike shows 37F and the bike started on first try. No issues.

Again, I have the 18AMP battery.