Shorai battery

[escapefjrtist]

Might be better but still not good enough. Talk to me when it'll start [w/o any special shenanigans] the bike down into the 20's.

YMMV

--G

 

[Chuck35]

Mine started fine in the teens this week with fresh Yuasa.

I think a pair of grip heaters around the Shorai with a momentary push button switch to warm it (inside and out) might just be the key.

 

[garyahouse]

Talking to the tech rep about grip heaters and warming the battery, he explained that without a separate battery to power the grip heaters long enough for them to warm the INSIDE of the battery, the idea probably wouldn't work. I thought about this too, and we discussed it here on this thread. So much for that idea. Besides, what we really need is a battery that can start the bike as well as a lead acid battery. That's the ultimate goal. For me, it doesn't get cold enough, often enough, to test this battery very well. It's 6 am now, and as I type it's 67 degrees outside. You get my drift.

But for me, this battery works great. I'm happy with it and I feel that Shorai has done a commendable job making the type of improvement I was looking for. I don't mind riding in 35-40 degree weather occasionally. Any colder than that, without sufficient heated gear, the bike stays home. I can, I have, and I will ride when it's colder than that, but I don't enjoy it. It's extremely rare around here, only happens in the mornings, and the bike sits in the garage at night. That means that the battery's ability to start MY bike on occasional cold mornings is sufficient.

Is this a better battery than the ones used to begin this thread? It is. Keep in mind, Shorai is not done improving this technology. They've at least shown that they are committed to doing so, and that they are making progress. Have they arrived yet? That will have to be up to each of you, depending on when and where you ride. If the weather gets cold enough, I'll provide some additional tests this year.

One thought worth mentioning: There is a big difference in how hard it is to turn over an engine based on what kind of oil is in it. 20W50 doesn't crank like 0W30, as you know. The colder it gets the more that oil type factors in.

oh- forgot to mention, the gages did not reset when I started it at 34 degrees.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[RaYzerman19]

No Shorai's for me....... slow cranking isn't good even if it's an ímproved battery. Maybe if they had a 40ah version...... and why pay the big money, risk hurting your expensive starter, when you can get an AGM for much less, and with the right maintenance, last you 5+ years. Bikes just don't seem to be the right application for these lithiums. You boys in the far south, I think it's great...

 

[FJR Flyer]

I plan to talk to the Shorai guy tomorrow at the DC bike show. I talked to them, two years ago, I think, when they brought out the 2nd gen battery and they did a free exchange for me, after I related the cold weather issues.

Tuesday, temp was 7 deg outside and about 27 in the garage. I'm running 10w-40 full synthetic. I had a 100 watt light bulb under the engine and a tarp over the bike. Turn the bike on, turn the motolights on, hoping to 'warm up' the battery. CVS is blinking red. First try, it barely turned over. 2nd try was better. I think it caught on the 3rd try. Never resets the dash completely. Just changed the trip odometer back to the regular odometer.

Wednesday, temp was 11 deg outside and 24 in the garage. Had the bulb and tarp again. Took a few more cranks to get a start. First couple cranks are always minimal. And had at least 4 cranks in the afternoon each day in the unheated garage at work.

Maybe I'll give Shawn a call.....

 

[garyahouse]

No Shorai's for me....... slow cranking isn't good even if it's an ímproved battery. Maybe if they had a 40ah version...... and why pay the big money, risk hurting your expensive starter, when you can get an AGM for much less, and with the right maintenance, last you 5+ years. Bikes just don't seem to be the right application for these lithiums. You boys in the far south, I think it's great...

Burlington, Ontario. No explanation needed. I grew up near Detroit and I get it.

Let's hope that we all live to see the day soon enough that these batteries become state of the art instead of the "newest" thing that's not good enough to get the job done in cooler weather.

 

[RichDoyle]

I'd love to send the paperweight I have in my garage closet back to them. My 2012 battery discharged while I was in PA from November to April 2013. When I flew back to ride the bike from CA to PA the Shorai battery wouldn't hold a charge. Ironically, I pulled the old AGM battery off the shelf where I put it when I installed the Shorai, and it worked fine, and continues to fire the bike. I still have the Shorai in the original box, and just never bothered to complain.

Had the same thing happen, with a twist. I had one of these in my NT700 (installed April 2012). Drove it thousands of miles, with the cold-weather problems we see described herein. (These only occasionally are a factor here.) I also had their extra-wonderful custom battery charger. So we leave on a two-week trip to Europe the last week of April 2013. I leave the bike with the special charger connected in "maintain" mode. Get back two weeks later and the battery is dead. One cell failed, leaving the battery unable to crank the bike or retain a charge. Like you, the OEM battery that had been sitting on the shelf in my carport without even a charger on it started the bike fine, and was still in there when I traded the bike in for my FJR in September. Shorai replaced the battery under warranty (pro-rated, by the way, not quite for free), but it sits unused at the moment. I've got another use for it where temperature won't be a factor.

 

[ionbeam]

...it sits unused at the moment. I've got another use for it where temperature won't be a factor.

Hmm, that would either be your fair weather lawn mower or target practice

Edit: I should have included the [Friday] [/Friday] brackets.

 

[RichDoyle]

Nope. Basically a portable power source.

 

[Chuck35]

Gary, My interest in grip heaters stems from your reports that the battery voltage climbs after failed start attempts. I'm thinking a load to "warm it up inside" would be better than a failed start attempt and the possible flooding / washed rings (lost compression) all FI engines are subject to. The grip heaters are just a load, with some possible benefit from the heat they create. The idea wasn't to warm the battery like a bowl of soup.

Anyway, nice job. My hats off to you for sticking it out this long,

 

[escapefjrtist]

<snip> I'm thinking a load to "warm it up inside" would be better than a failed start attempt and the possible flooding / washed rings (lost compression) all FI engines are suspect to.

This ^^^ is my main concern with repeated failed cold starts.

--G

 

[SkooterG]

<snip> I'm thinking a load to "warm it up inside" would be better than a failed start attempt and the possible flooding / washed rings (lost compression) all FI engines are suspect to.

This ^^^ is my main concern with repeated failed cold starts.

--G

Me too.

Still, always interested in this. Wish I could try one for free. Might have to stop by the Shorai booth at the Phoenix IMS in two weeks and commence some serious schmoozing.

 

[garyahouse]

Gary, My interest in grip heaters stems from your reports that the battery voltage climbs after failed start attempts. I'm thinking a load to "warm it up inside" would be better than a failed start attempt and the possible flooding / washed rings (lost compression) all FI engines are subject to. The grip heaters are just a load, with some possible benefit from the heat they create. The idea wasn't to warm the battery like a bowl of soup.Anyway, nice job. My hats off to you for sticking it out this long,

Granted, the rep and I did talk about this. He felt it wouldn't work, however, he did say that he couldn't be sure: that it was just his opinion, and it made sense to him. He never heard of anybody trying it, and neither have I. And until somebody does, how are we gonna know?

I do know that a heavy load has much more of an effect than a light load, ei trying to start the bike vs. turning on the parking lights and the heated grips. The battery indeed can generate more amperage after each successive attempt to start it. But it is yet to be seen what a heating element or two wrapped around the battery will do. I have found that in order to get the battery to actually produce more amperage when it's really cold, I need to apply a heavy load for a short period of time (an attempted start), rather than a light load (like my lights and grip warmers) for a longer period of time. I didn't notice much difference when attempting the latter.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[ionbeam]

...I'm thinking a load to "warm it up inside"...The grip heaters are just a load, with some possible benefit from the heat they create. The idea wasn't to warm the battery like a bowl of soup...

Granted, the rep and I did talk about this. He felt it wouldn't work, however, he did say that he couldn't be sure: that it was just his opinion, and it made sense to him. He never heard of anybody trying it, and neither have I. And until somebody does, how are we gonna know?...

Shorai's web site says that a heavy load on a cold battery will warm it on each successive try and the battery voltage will rise. Real world experience reported here on the Forum shows that it isn't always true.

I'm thinking that we should put a tape type grip heater on each side of the Shorai battery (and perhaps one on the bottom), then when it's cold out, turn on the 4/5 grip heaters and warm the battery's insides with the electrical load and the outside with the grip heaters. Just be sure to switch off all the grip heaters before cranking the engine.

 

[RossKean]

I don't do a lot of riding below 40 °F but I still need a battery to perform well at those temperatures. Maybe the solution is to carry around a high-draw device of some sort to preheat the battery so it will perform as well as the AGM battery? Using the starter to do this is a bad idea. Granted, the lithium batteries have the advantages of smaller size and lower weight but the combination of cost, reliability and poor low temperature performance guarantees that I won't be getting one (even the improved version) anytime soon. My biggest concern, other than being stranded on a cold morning, is the fact that frequent low-voltage high-current draws in attempts to start the bike will do no favors for your starter motor. I wonder what the brushes and commutator would look like after a year or so.

 

[Chuck35]

I suppose cranking at WOT would eliminate the flooding concern, but as posted above its not so good for the starter.

 

[ionbeam]

...Using the starter to do this is a bad idea...My biggest concern, other than being stranded on a cold morning, is the fact that frequent low-voltage high-current draws in attempts to start the bike will do no favors for your starter motor. I wonder what the brushes and commutator would look like after a year or so.

I suppose cranking at WOT would eliminate the flooding concern, but as posted above its not so good for the starter.

For the non AE people there is the tried 'n true bump start. Yet another 'handy and simple' work-around

 

[RossKean]

For the non AE people there is the tried 'n true bump start. Yet another 'handy and simple' work-around

Just have to remember to park at the top of a hill on cool evenings.

 

[FJR Flyer]

I talked to the Shorai rep at the DC show yesterday. Really nice guy and very willing to talk about the issues. I mentioned I turned on the motolight for 30 secs - 1 min prior to the first attempt to start in the cold weather. He said that's good, but the best thing to do is to hit the starter for a short start attempt, which will warm up the battery faster than anything else. Then wait 30 secs - 1 min.

We talked about my situation. My battery is about two years old. He said the current product is three or four generations improved and will perform much better. He gave me his card, told me to email him, and he'd get me a warrnaty replacement at no charge. Hey just requested that I send the current battery back so they can test and disassemble it for evaluation. He said he'd be back at the factory in a few days and would take care of it.

I emailed late afternoon yesterday and I had a response from him last night.

Got to give them some credit for the great customer relations, at least from my experience.

 

[garyahouse]

FJR Flyer: That's exactly the same thing they did for me. Their customer service is second to none. They even paid the shipping BOTH ways. And I found out indeed that their newest battery formulation is a good deal more effective than the one I got in Dec. of 2012... which was about a year old.

Ionbeam: concerning your comments that "real world experience shows that this isn't always true," I can say that from the 3 different Shorai batteries I have tested, it is absolutely true in every case, but with one exception. I'll explain. Charting the voltage carefully, recording the number of seconds both for each start attempt and for the rest period before each successive restart attempt, I found all of the Shorais to be consistent. The voltmeter records for me how the battery will drop from say 12.7 on a cold morning to something like 11.8 after the start attempt. Then slowly it climbs: 11.9, 12.0, 12.1 and etc. This continues for about a minute until it reaches a max voltage of say 12.6. Letting it sit longer seems to accomplish nothing. Then the second try. After a minute or so, it climbs to 12.7. Then the third. It climbs to say 12.8 -- (Ramdom numbers used for argument's sake only) Eventually it climbs to the point where the engine starts. These batteries do this VERY consistently.

With each successive attempt, I can actually hear the engine cranking with a little more authority. The RPM's change. Actually, my ear is more accurate than the voltmeter, which rounds off to the next tenth of a volt. The one exception: if it's too cold, it's too cold. Successive tries do NOT cause the voltage to rise, at least not much, and definitely not enough. instead, at some point during the successive attempt process, voltage begins to fall, and never recovers.

There's a point where I won't hit the starter button as I don't want to damage the starter. This is the point where it can barely turn over the engine. It's the point where it has no chance of starting and I feel I'm risking a total stall soon (starter won't turn). I depend on my ears, and it's hard to describe with words here. Granted, I've only tested 3 batteries.

Ionbeam, in your defense, I should add that because so many have weighed in on this company's batteries, we're also talking about a number of different battery formulations. We're not necessarily comparing apples to apples. However, since I have indeed tested their last 2 or 3 generations of batteries under very controlled conditions, I would think that my findings would have descent credibility here, and should take precedence over the tests made of much earlier generations of these batteries.

I believe I documented all of this earlier on this thread, but just thought I'd address your comment. It should get pretty cold around here again this week. I'll try to post up another start attempt.

By the say, FWIW, if these things are left on a tender all night, it's a completely different ballgame. I don't have enough cold mornings around here to have the luxury of testing mine while "on the tender." Or at least I haven't thus far.

Gary

darksider #44