Smokers (BBQ - not grilling)

[Fred W]

I'd guess a "Pro BBQ" would be any place they sell the 'Que to the public. What Scott was saying wasn't that the Brisket would be done in 3-4 hours, just that this is how long they smoked it for. Then they'd do the remainder of the low and slow cooking wrapped up in a conventional oven indoors. There would be lots of advantages in cooking them that way for a commercial kitchen. More control of the cooking and ability to hold the finished meat at serving temp for a long time come to mind.

The other (maybe even bigger) advantage of splitting a whole brisket into flat and point is that the fattier point takes a lot more cooking time to render all of the fat out, and by then the flat would be dried out and tough. By splitting them you can take each piece out of the heat when it is optimally done.

A "smoke ring" is caused by smoke, but not by the white, visible part of the smoke. It is created by the invisible nitric oxide and carbon monoxide in the smoke in a reaction with the myoglobin present in the meat. It's generally the same reaction and discoloration that you get by curing meats with sodium nitrite curing salt (Prague Powder), which is what makes Bacon and Ham red and pink.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

Correct Fred. Many BBQ places smoke their meat for a few hours and finish off in an oven.

Here is a link to the smoke ring myth: https://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/mythbusting_the_smoke_ring.html

 

[Bounce]

Amusing quote from Texas Monthly BBQ:
"This is Texas and if you cant make a good tasting brisket with a smoke ring, then keep learnin.

If you have no intention of getting a smoke ring, then your bus to New Jersey is about to leave. Please don't miss it!"

I realize the "smoke ring" is no indication of taste.. but it looks cool, and most BBQ judges still want to see it...

That's great. It also restates my "carpet bagger" comment.

 

[Fred W]

Here is a link to the smoke ring myth: https://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/mythbusting_the_smoke_ring.html

That article says the same thing I did. I don't see where it shows that the smoke ring is a myth though. It just describes the chemicle reaction the smoke causes the ring by. It is still a ring caused by the gasses of wood combustion aka smoke.

 

[Knifemaker]

Said the same thing too.... I think the myth is that it effects taste... saying smoke doesn't create the "smoke ring" is getting a bit technical. As I said, not sure of any other cooking method that creates enough NO and CO to produce a ring without burning wood or charcoal.

And yes, I understand they are finishing the brisket in the oven, was just saying 2-3 hours seemed a bit short...as you can have smoke "flavors" get into the meat for longer than that. No big smokehouses do that here that I know of...maybe Applebees, or some place that smoked meat isn't their main item. But most seem to only fetch the meat out of the pit when they are ready to start the serving process, ovens are only used to hold temperatures.

I think even Arby's claims their brisket is "slow smoked for 18 hours"....

Perhaps it's an east coast thing?

Here, if you saw them cooking it in the oven you'd be like....

 

[Blind Squirrel]

It's a myth because you don't need smoke to make a ring.



Notice that Meathead is in the video, and that he really likes the finished product.

 

[Fred W]

No you don't need smoke to make a fake "smoke ring". Instead you can cure it briefly with prague powder (Sodium Nitrite) which reproduces the look.

But smoke does make a smoke ring if you do expose the meat to it, since smoke contains nitric oxide and carbon monoxide gasses. Maybe it's just semantics, but I still don;'t see how it is a "myth" that it is the smoke that causes the smoke ring when you smoke meat.

 

[Knifemaker]

It's a myth because you don't need smoke to make a ring.


Notice that Meathead is in the video, and that he really likes the finished product.

Still not really busting the "myth"...Fred mentioned back in post 1460 that you can produce a smoke ring by using curing salt...which is exactly what they did in the video. They used liquid smoke in the brine and in the glaze....to get the smoke taste. So really they just produced all the conditions artificially to get the same results you get by smoking the meat.
I'll also add that Liquid Aminos has MSG in it, which has been used as a meat tenderizer for decades....so injecting the brisket with this likely helps it stay tender and juicy. As does cooking it Sous Vide ..... Many BBQ competitors inject their meat too....usually with beef broth...or some "secret concoction"

 

[Bounce]

Many competitors say they wouldn't serve competition cooked meats to their guests. It's a different thing and requires short cuts to get the results of low and slow. For a judge taking a bite or two it's one thing. For your special guests it's another.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

There was a time that is was widely believed in order to show that you have done a good job and properly low and slow smoked the meat you needed a smoke ring. There are still many people that believe that. That is the myth that is being debunked, not that smoke can produce the ring.

Here is an example of a site touting a smoke ring https://www.thespruce.com/barbecue-smoke-ring-333612

From the site: Definition: In the world of barbecue the smoke ring is one of the most sought after properties of smoked meats. It is believed to show that you have done a good job and properly low and slow smoked the meat in question. Is particularly prized in smoked brisket.

 

[Fred W]

I'd say that belief is still widely held now. A smoke ring, though it doesn't contribute to the flavor much, is still highly prized. If you turned in a brisket at a competition without one I'm sure they would ding you for it on the scoring.

In all facets of cooking there is a saying that you "eat with your eyes" first. Presentation matters, and a nice heavy smoke ring is a part of the presentation for BBQ Brisket, along with a nice dark bark. Besides, if they were trying to bust the myth that a smoke ring isn't needed, then why did they fake one with sodium nitrite cure?

I think they were just trying to prove that they could make moist and tender brisket in a sous vide, and without smoking. I'm sure they achieved their goal, but I still like mine smoked the old fashioned way.

 

[Knifemaker]

Ah,well guess I never heard that. Granted there are many things that are false you can find on the internet, so I try not to pay much attention to anything I read until I can do some research first.

You could probably fill a book with all of the cooking "myths" that are out there.....

 

[eflyguy]

I think my comment was misconstrued. I meant that the smoke ring stops growing at a certain point, so there's no harm in pulling it off the smoker.

The flavor *does* come from the white billowy stuff, which is absorbed into the surface of the meat, and it stops when the ring does.

So the association makes sense, but it's technically inaccurate. And that's why I only have chips going for the first 2-3 hours of a typical 6-hr (ribs, brisket) cook.

Next time you smoke a considerable chunk of meat, carefully cut a section out of the middle. Taste it before you get into the good stuff - it won't have any smoke flavor, because the smoke particles can't be absorbed that far in from the surface..

 

[Knifemaker]

Yes, but you can fiddle with the conditions and get larger smoke rings and get more smoke into the meat. I've done ribs that had a nice visable ring going 1/4 or so into the meat, and I've had a few that the ring went all they way to the bone....(those were ones that I sprayed with liquid during the cook)

I have photos of pork tenderloins with distinct "rings" and some that although cooked to the proper temperature, the "pink" invaded the entire piece of meat. Which I think was due to the fact you don't cook them to a very high temperature.

From what I understand, the "ring" will stop when either the temperature reaches a certain point, or when the outer surface gets dry enough that the NO and CO gasses have nothing to "dissolve" in.

Also it appears different woods, and parts of the wood vary in how much of those gasses they produce.

So in my opinion you can get more smoke (and a thicker ring) after that 2-3 hour mark....not sure if there's that big of a noticeable difference in the way it tastes however....

 

[eflyguy]

I don't think we disagree.. According to the amazingribs article, the ring (and smoke absorption) stops at around 170º, so basting with cold liquid extends that.

All I'm trying to say is that in *my own personal experience*, there's little difference between meat that's been exposed to the white fluffy smoke for 30-50% of the cook, than 100%..

If you artificially cool the meat and prolong the cook (because there's no way to keep a natural burn to <<200º), you can certainly increase the penetration of the ring, along with the real smoke of the burned wood. I just don't think it matters, and also I don't think customers of restaurants who move from smoker to oven would be able to tell the difference.

 

[Bounce]

because there's no way to keep a natural burn to <<200º

weeeeell...

does "natural" include air movement management? the rest of the cook is all natural. the only thing automated is the air flow which is how you feed/starve the coals and manage temp more tightly.

 

[Fred W]

I think the spritzing or mopping improves the smoke absorption due to the surface tension , or reduction of it, rather than any cooling effect. Of course that's just a guess, and I'll admit I've never employed either technique before but been able to get great rings and smoke without moistening.

 

[eflyguy]

By "natural" I mean coals or wood, vs. electric or gas. My experience is that it's tough to maintain a burn at much below 200º, although I'm willing to admit I'm no expert, I've been smoking for about 20 years and learned by experience (failures!)..

 

[Fred W]

And from what I've read you don't really want to smoke at below 200 degrees F or you risk developing food poisoning. Here's an excerpt from Meathead Goldwyn at the AmazingRibs.com web site:

Meats left at temperatures between 40°F and 130°F are in "the danger zone", a range of temps within which microbes reproduce rapidly, sometimes doubling every 20 minutes. If you cook these products to internal temperatures below 130°F you are cooking at a temp that bacteria love. At 130°F the time it takes to pasteurize meat can be hours, and at 165°F the pasteurization time is down to seconds. Because the proper balance of temperature, salt, and preservatives is so delicate, I cannot recommend any cooking below 200°F minimum. And even that is not ideal.

You do not have to cook at below 200F to get low and slow cooking and get tender meat results. At above 200F the surface of the meat, where the majority of the bacteria exists, is pasteurized rapidly. For cooking barbeque there is no need to try and slow the cooking down beyond what you will get at 225F, and even that rate of cooking is risky on large pieces of meat where the internal temperature will be in the danger zone for a long period unless you intend to bring the meat's internal temperature above 185F for more than 5 minutes, which is what it takes to destroy the botulinum toxin.

 

[Knifemaker]

I think the spritzing or mopping improves the smoke absorption due to the surface tension , or reduction of it, rather than any cooling effect.

I think it's a bit of both. It's not really "surface tension" but just the simple fact wet meat absorbs stuff better because smoke particles and gasses stick to it or actually dissolve in it. But how "cool" the meat is a factor too. Especially if you're talking about the smoke ring. From the article on smoke rings:
"Moisture. Keep the surface wet by basting or spritzing it with a thin water based mop. In many parts of the country mopping with vinegar based liquids is popular. Many people spritz with apple juice, which also has fructose which can help with browning. Blonder explains: "First, when water evaporates from the surface of the meat it cools the meat and this enhances condensation of NO. Second, the water is 'sticky' and grabs onto passing smoke chemicals. And third, it delays the formation of a dense bark which impedes absorption of smoke chemicals."

That last line does seem to say you can get more smoke "flavorings" by keeping the meat moist. Of course once it hits about 170 you won't get any more progression of the "smoke ring"...but it does sound like you're still getting smoke flavor.

I think the way my pit runs, I could likely using a small amount of charcoal and wood, and severely limiting air intake, get it to hold a temperature below 200F. But there's no good reason why to do that, and as Fred points out, likely not a safe thing to do.

As far as cooking a big chunk of meat like a whole brisket at 225F...yes there's a risk of bacteria developing inside the meat, but I think because you're going to hit an internal temperature of 200 or so before eating it, you're going to kill off anything that might be growing.

I'd be more concerned with that cooking a pork roast, especially one you "injected"...as you risk introducing bacteria inside the meat and you're not cooking it to a high temperature. (Which would be a problem as Fred pointed out)

Anyway...picking up a half dozen baby backs today to smoke Sunday. (Ill be careful with the salt this time )