Starter issues

[dsmack]

Foosh ~ Reading your last post, I noticed for the first time that your problem began AFTER you installed your most recent battery... I would strongly suggest that you remove your battery and take it to a competent battery store/service center. Have it load tested.

It sounds to me that you may have gotten one of the relatively rare (but not unheard of) new batteries with a defective cell... which will cause exactly the symptoms you've been describing.

Good luck,

Don

 

[Zorlac]

The small gauge wire test points or "hooks" as Fred called them would sort this out right quick.

1 a pair at the battery terminals.

2 into the starter relay.

3 out of the starter relay.

4 at the starter + terminal on the starter itself.

5 on a case screw of the stater body.

May sound like a PITA, but it sure beats guessing.

 

[radman]

Jeez, any decent shop has a starter/alt/volt tester that can measure starter draw while cranking. Spend a half hour with one and put this to bed.

 

[pmspaul]

As for batteries, I replaced the one that was on the bike when I bought it, almost immediately. I've just replaced that one when this started happening.
I've removed and examined every cable and connection between the battery, starter relay, starter, and the engine ground. I found no corrosion, no flaky connections, no "hairy" loose strands, nothing but shiny clean bolts and spades. Took a brush to them anyway, reassembled, no change. Borrowing a battery from another Feejer would be a thing to try, but I have no Feejer friends locally, so I'm not going to be able to trade batteries with anybody to rule out a not-good-enough brand new battery.

Have you eliminated the starter solenoid as a possible problem yet? If not, it's easy to remove it from the equation to make sure there is nothing being lost in the contacts there. (If you're troubleshooting by Yamaha's book, it's the next step after checking the condition of the battery.)

Just a thought.

 

[wfooshee]

Have you eliminated the starter solenoid as a possible problem yet? If not, it's easy to remove it from the equation to make sure there is nothing being lost in the contacts there. (If you're troubleshooting by Yamaha's book, it's the next step after checking the condition of the battery.)
Just a thought.

Haven't put an ohmmeter across it yet, but intend to Saturday. Had to put the bike back together Sunday so I can get to work during the week. To check that out correctly I'll have to ride around a bit with the plastic removed so I'll be able to get to that while things are hot after running. No plastic, headlights back on, I'll have the ugliest Feej known to man.

Foosh ~ Reading your last post, I noticed for the first time that your problem began AFTER you installed your most recent battery... I would strongly suggest that you remove your battery and take it to a competent battery store/service center. Have it load tested.
It sounds to me that you may have gotten one of the relatively rare (but not unheard of) new batteries with a defective cell... which will cause exactly the symptoms you've been describing.

Good luck,

Don

No, the battery replacement was the first step to fix. it began as described in post 21, failed to start after hours in stop-n-go traffic.

 

[Fred W]

The only problem, Rad, is we don't know what the normal values are for this bike. How much current draw is normal? How much does the battery normally sack out when cranking?

It seems to me that, based on the number of folks that routinely get the clock / odometer resets on warm starts that the starter circuit design is marginal somewhere. I'm guessing that, in general, the battery is under sized for the demand from the starters so that they could fit it into the cowlings up front. Another dumb idea IMO. I wouldn't have minded having a bigger one it in the normal position under the seat.

But this one seems to be different, like maybe there is some added resistance in the starter circuit. The starter relay is one place where that would be possible. I don't think you'd have to wait till it's warmed up to check that theory. Check it cold or hot there should be essentially no voltage drop across the relay's big terminals. If there is it is bad.

 

[pmspaul]

Haven't put an ohmmeter across it yet, but intend to Saturday. Had to put the bike back together Sunday so I can get to work during the week. To check that out correctly I'll have to ride around a bit with the plastic removed so I'll be able to get to that while things are hot after running. No plastic, headlights back on, I'll have the ugliest Feej known to man.

It's actually simpler than that, when it's hot and won't crank, jump the terminals of the solenoid. If it cranks, yay. If not cross it off the list.

Yamaha recommends using a heavy gauge cable to make the jump, but the less technical screwdriver will work as well. Whatever you use, just avoid touching other metal parts.

Also, whenever possible test a component using voltage as opposed to ohms. I have tested switches and other components which will pass a resistance test and fail under load. Like Fred said, you can measure voltage at each terminal of the solenoid, they should be the same.

I like to remove things completely from the equation, so when possible I jump around them to eliminate them as suspect.

 

[radman]

Starter draw no-load should be about 30A. Under load, 43A-85A. Relay is rated to 180A, battery produces anywhere from 135A to 200A depending on manufacturer and health. These are rough numbers, but suffice to say if a starter has a fairly high no-load and a really high load cranking amp it's likely it's toast. A normal no-load but high load draw points to a hard cranking engine. Again, a starter/alt shop can be your best friend as that's all they do.

 

[Fred W]

Yes, yes... but 43 - 85A is a huge (>100%) range of tolerance. And we are talking in shades of gray here. In the case of a starter that just will not work I agree bringing it to a shop would be a good move. In this case where it is only marginal I'm not sure bench tests would be conclusive without a known good one to compare it to.

 

[radman]

Here then. Even has a name kinda Yammi like.

 

[Fred W]

:lol:

Better hit the gym so I can get that thing to work on the Feejer!!

 

[dwhartwell]

Haven't put an ohmmeter across it yet, but intend to Saturday. Had to put the bike back together Sunday so I can get to work during the week. To check that out correctly I'll have to ride around a bit with the plastic removed so I'll be able to get to that while things are hot after running. No plastic, headlights back on, I'll have the ugliest Feej known to man.

It's actually simpler than that, when it's hot and won't crank, jump the terminals of the solenoid. If it cranks, yay. If not cross it off the list.

Yamaha recommends using a heavy gauge cable to make the jump, but the less technical screwdriver will work as well. Whatever you use, just avoid touching other metal parts.

Also, whenever possible test a component using voltage as opposed to ohms. I have tested switches and other components which will pass a resistance test and fail under load. Like Fred said, you can measure voltage at each terminal of the solenoid, they should be the same.

I like to remove things completely from the equation, so when possible I jump around them to eliminate them as suspect.

Not likely the connection between the battery and the starter including the solenoid. Why.... Battery voltage dropping down to 9V when cranking indicates a bad battery (which it is not) or a bad starter, or excessive force required to turn the engine over when hot. (not likely) Voltage drop is excessive due to high current draw.

 

[Fred W]

Not likely the connection between the battery and the starter including the solenoid. Why.... Battery voltage dropping down to 9V when cranking indicates a bad battery (which it is not) or a bad starter, or excessive force required to turn the engine over when hot. (not likely) Voltage drop is excessive due to high current draw.

dw,

Have you checked how low your battery voltage drops? That kind of voltage droop is within the realm of "normal" for this application. I know mine gets down into the low 10's consistently (occasionally high 9's) and I don't have any kind of starting problems. The battery is under capacity for the load by design.

 

[3dogs]

My book "Motorcycle Electrical Systems Troubleshooting and Repair" illustrates how to perfrom voltage drop testing--diagrams, photos included. I even have a case study of a starter and its circuit that doesn't work. Here is the link

Motorcycle Electrical Book

The book is not specific to any brand/type of motorcycle but several forum members have contributed images to the book so there are FJR examples.

 

[dwhartwell]

Not likely the connection between the battery and the starter including the solenoid. Why.... Battery voltage dropping down to 9V when cranking indicates a bad battery (which it is not) or a bad starter, or excessive force required to turn the engine over when hot. (not likely) Voltage drop is excessive due to high current draw.

dw,

Have you checked how low your battery voltage drops? That kind of voltage droop is within the realm of "normal" for this application. I know mine gets down into the low 10's consistently (occasionally high 9's) and I don't have any kind of starting problems. The battery is under capacity for the load by design.

I'll need to check that Fred. (seriously) I would not think it would drop that low. I'll attempt this over the weekend. Not sure I can get a hot engine check given the darn hurricane in the NE.

 

[wfooshee]

Screwdriver across the starter relay terminals made no difference compared to starting with the thumb button. Slow crank when hot. It did make a little weld mark on the head of the bolt, though! B) Same voltage drop, to around 9 volts, even 8.5, and no clock reset.

 

[pmspaul]

Screwdriver across the starter relay terminals made no difference compared to starting with the thumb button. Slow crank when hot. It did make a little weld mark on the head of the bolt, though! B) Same voltage drop, to around 9 volts, even 8.5, and no clock reset.

I didn't figure it would. What is the standing voltage on the battery, both hot and cold? Are you measuring with an onboard or standalone voltmeter?

 

[Fred W]

I would really, really, really consider trying yet another battery before going for a replacement starter motor. Just because it is new doesn't mean that you have ruled it out. Believe me, I get stung by that all the time at work. Replace a part and the system still has the same problem so it can't be that part, right? Wrong. It's amazing how often it happens.

Ideally, if you have a friend in the area with a known good FJR battery you can swap them pretty quickly and rule it out.

 

[dwhartwell]

I still believe it it is worth investing or borrowing a clamp-on amp meter. Get a hot reading, get a cold reading. If much different, replace the starter.

 

[dsmack]

I would really, really, really consider trying yet another battery before going for a replacement starter motor. Just because it is new doesn't mean that you have ruled it out. Believe me, I get stung by that all the time at work. Replace a part and the system still has the same problem so it can't be that part, right? Wrong. It's amazing how often it happens.
Ideally, if you have a friend in the area with a known good FJR battery you can swap them pretty quickly and rule it out.

I'm with Fred on this. In my former life I was in charge of maintenance for a large fleet of vehicles. I can't count the number of times a new battery caused problems because of internal malfunctions of the plate assemblies. Weak cells, shorted cells, you name it... and these were top of the line batteries from a OEM supplier!

Either try to borrow a known good battery as Fred suggests, or take your battery to a good battery/electrical shop where they can test it under load.

It is the cheapest way to elimate the battery from the equation... hell it might even be FREE! :yahoo:

Either way, I wish you good luck in getting this solved for minimum outlay. That starter you pictured looked too pristine to be the culprit, but I guess stranger things have happened. :glare:

Don