The Hog Phenomenon

[chazglenn3]

I have lots of friends in 1% MC clubs. The reality is that when the 1% motorcycle clubs were founded, there were few choices of motorcycles available to them. The British makes that were too expensive, and the very affordable (at the time) Harley-Davidson's. Japan was pretty much still rebuilding from WWII, and their motorcycles didn't start arriving here until the mid 70's...at least the good ones. By that time all of the clubs had in their bylaws that you had to ride a Harley and it has never changed. Hells Angels founding member Sonny Barger once said "In terms of pure workmanship, personally I don't like Harleys. I ride them because I'm in the club, and that's the image, but if I could I would seriously consider riding a Honda ST1100 or a BMW. We really missed the boat not switching over to the Japanese models when they began building bigger bikes."

 

[harper]

Harleys, if not the most reliable or powerful motorcycles, are frequently incredible, personalized pieces of art. Beautiful to look at. Just a different path, my man.

 

[Knifemaker]

Geez, another thread with Harley bashing.

Why can't we all just get along? LOL.

Would like to ask the OP if he ever has rode a new HD?

So much hate today, even outside of political divides.

 

[roger dodger]

2 wheels are better than 4 wheels !

Judge not lest ye be judged !

I wave at all bikes !

YMMV

 

[El Guapo Loco]

Words to live by:
to each his/her/its own;

live and let live;

ride and let ride.

How does what someone you don't know rides, or how he dresses, or what image he wants to project effect your life? Take food off your table? Siphon gas from your tank? Keep you from paying your rent? Your generalizations show your simple mindedness. In summary, you sound like a pompous ass. Synonym = poser.

Don't worry about me. Worry about you.

If you had a point you would not be obliged to get into name calling...

A wise man makes few enemies

 

[El Guapo Loco]

Geez, another thread with Harley bashing.Why can't we all just get along? LOL.

Would like to ask the OP if he ever has rode a new HD?

So much hate today, even outside of political divides.

Hate? I'm sorry, but I see no hate. Just a question about something that is, and why it is. Where is the hate, in that?

 

[El Guapo Loco]

I don't know why the animosity, Those who say "live and let live", "ride and let ride", then don't want to let a guy "write or not write". SHEESH.
I personally think MOST of the HD phenomenon, comes from a combination of movies and personal history. Almost every individual I have quizzed about WHY they were so enamored of HD's, {and I almost always ask when people start a motorcycle conversation because I am so curious}, have an older relative or friend of the family that they admired who had a HD and they saw and heard and felt the respect {in some cases} and/or awe, or just plain "interest' that that person got from other men AND women.

I grew up NOT being aware of the HD phenomenon. Most all of my hero's rode Triumphs, and Nortons, and BSA's, and just after I started lusting after motorcycles the Honda 750 came out, then the Kaw. 500's and 750's, and then the magnificent Kaw. Z-1!!!

I knew a lot of people rode HD's but I didn't know HOW MANY.

On my first trip to Daytona, I was FLOORED, at the percentage of HD's compared to other bikes. {I now know that more HD's show up at those places but STILL}.

So, ever since then I have been curious why anyone would CHOOSE to ride such outdated technology.

The other question I have is why it's wrong on a motorcycle forum to ask the question.

Well, first, the z-1 was a breakthrough in power train technology but far, far from "magnificent!" It had bronze bushings on it's swingarm, as just one example... It was as dangerous as it was fast, probably more so.

I don't dislike harleys. I had a '09 road king last summer. I traded it for the fjr I have owned several harleys - just long enough to make a little money off of them. Looks like those days are gone.

My thinking on this was, hey, I'm in a forum filled with riders that have 1) had the courage to choose a bike on it's merits and 2) have chosen something a tad classy, as opposed to loud and obnoxious. So I thought a more or less civilized, quasi-intellectual discussion of the "harley thing" would ensue.

It did not. Only two on-topic, intelligent posts.

So, my bad. Ops delete this thread, with my blessing.

 

[its just rain]

El Guapo Loco you are brilliant! I haven't seen anyone stir this much **** up in a long time, hope you come up with something else.

 

[mech 1 twa]

1981 Stripes.... Lighten up Frances.

A good rant every now and then is Okay. Ride on.

 

[art miller]

I enjoyed every comment. I wave at Harley riders and they generally wave back. I do not like to follow Harleys as they seem to have a nasty exhaust discharge. That may be caused by lack of cat. converter. A couple of my riding buddies have Harleys but they frankly prefer riding their BMW GS's when riding with me. This is NERP..right??

 

[El Guapo Loco]

You can't speak anymore. Say anything about a Jew and suddenly you're ANTI-SEMANTIC and people start asking you if Hitler was your great grand daddy... The same with gays, moslems, hispanics. Funny how you can say anything you like about regular people. Now it's expanded to harleys. Say anything, and you're harley bashing.

A label is a cheap, and tawdry trick. A simple mind somehow responds to this trick, and the label sticks. All you have to do is say... RACIST, for example, and all discussion stops, in favor of the vilification of the racist. If the guy really is a racist is never asked, somehow. CERTAINLY he is! Let's kill him!

Labels do not work on me. My mind is not simple. I see others manipulating those around them (knowingly or not) by making use of labels and I know who they are. I will not make up a name for them, lest I participate in what I despise.

Motorcycles are judged in several ways, all of which relate to motorcycles. Speed, handling, comfort, cost to buy, reliability, looks, cost of operation... logical, rational and real criterion. By those criterion, how does a harley score?

OMG!!!! HARLEY BASHER! LET'S ALL GET OUR BASEBALL BATS AND GO OVER TO HIS HOUSE!!!!

The yamaha raider/roadliner beat harley at it's own game, so very thoroughly. And they really were assembled here, by americans. Sooo... why are they a commercial flop? It seems the "reason" was they had a Japanese name?

I don't have a problem with anybody that rides a harley, or a little kids tricycle. Do your thing. But I would like to understand how a bike that rates so very poorly on every criterion by which a motorcycle is judged, except looks, does so well?

 

[08FJR4ME]

Well to answer your question it is pretty obvious. Critical thinking has flown out the window.

That's all, Good day.

Edit: Oh by the way we do not delete threads here. They are here for all posterity.

Dave

 

[someguy]

I thought it an interesting query.

Perspective:

I have owned 10-12 bikes in my 50 trips around the sun. Sometimes several at a time. none exotic all special in their own way. Sometimes several graced my stable at the same time.

5 of them were HD. some came home in boxes and were resurrected, some came home from a trade or someone that fell on hard times.

a knuckle, a shovel, an AMF, plus some more contemporary. the jap bikes were many and mostly of the race ready type. Gen 1 GSXR 1000 was the beginning of my two wheel insanity, which i somehow survived. (as dangerous as it was fast - not recommended)

Most of my friends ride sensible bikes. Mostly FJR's now. none have every been astride a harley, and they generally hate them. to each their own.

Then i came to the FJR world (growing old i wanted to slow down?)

i tested all ST contenders and the FJR was the hands down winner and pushed ALL the right buttons. I still knee down with ease and grace on this sublime machine. I have done 1000 mile days.

and yet, i miss the slow tractor ride through the country side on the old shovel.

They all had so much personality (one actually wanted me dead or crippled and tried to kill me every time we went out on a date - she was a very angry girl and now much happier in another mans arms)

I would have another one in a minute, the old kick start shovel or knuckle rigid frame. or a modern street glide for that matter.

Throwing my leg over a harley has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks of me. i give zero *****. I've never ridden in a gang though i am a member of two MC clubs.

but the HD, it switches my mind into a different type of awareness.

it's odd and i can't explain it really, but the same on-ramp i triple digit EVERY SINGLE TIME on the sport bike and often on the FJR, is a lazy easy slide on the harley.

My odds of dying on any bike due to someone else being stupid remain a constant.

My odds of dying at my own hands drop drastically on the Harley. (i recognize how confusing this might sound to some, but the mindset and edge i ride at is very different - obviously partially due to machine capabilities, but i digress)

Life is too short to worry about appearances in my world.

and i appreciate those who appreciate that we don't all have to agree.

my $.02

 

[Gitbox]

it switches my mind into a different type of awareness

I can see the attraction of just an easy cruise through the back roads enjoying the scenery on a Harley. Heck, 99% of the bikes I meet on back roads are Harley's. I don't bash the brand or their riders (unless they deserve it) but having never actually rode one, I do wonder what it's like. My son went from a CBR1000RR to a Harley. Imagine that! I told him next time we ride together we'll have to switch bikes. We'll see if there is a sig line change after that.

I have tried a couple times to test ride a Harley at our local dealership but they don't allow it.

 

[Knifemaker]

Mr. Loco, I guess you didn't see the "winky face" in my statement about "hate".

Not bashing Harley's? Your last statement in your opening post called them "the sorriest of bikes" , which pretty much sounds like a slur to me.

You also just said:

"Motorcycles are judged in several ways, all of which relate to motorcycles. Speed, handling, comfort, cost to buy, reliability, looks, cost of operation... logical, rational and real criterion. By those criterion, how does a harley score?"

So you are making up your own critiera and judging the bike on that. And asking others to use it too. Not everyone uses that criteria to pick a bike. Some of those matter more than the others to some folks. Bikes can be visural machines. How they make you feel could be the most important one. So, seems you are being judgemental here. If you want logic, no one logically should even own a motorcycle because they are so much more dangerous than a car.

Although you claim otherwise, it's pretty obvious you think Harley's are lousy motorcycles

And I'm sure if you felt otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist. From my view it seems you put the bait on the hook and threw it out here just to see what you'd get.

And as you likely didn't know, I traded my FJR for a Triumph Bonneville. None of your criteria was used. The two reasons I got the bike were 1. I just wanted something lighter. And 2. I remember wanting one back when I was in high school...just liked they way they looked.

And seriously you don't know why HD is still around?

 

[El Guapo Loco]

Well to answer your question it is pretty obvious. Critical thinking has flown out the window.
That's all, Good day.

Edit: Oh by the way we do not delete threads here. They are here for all posterity.

Dave

Perhaps, Dave. But perhaps there are parameters I have missed. Maybe there are other ways to judge bikes and I am missing them...

You think?

 

[BluenoseFJR]

It has already been said that a lot of the Harley phenomenon comes down to marketing. They have developed their brand and 'style' and a lot of people like it. A job well done in that respect really. As for me, I have not owned an HD. They just don't make the style of bike I want. My wife, however, has a newer Sportster. While I believe she is somewhat drawn to that HD style, the biggest reason for the purchase was simply that the bike fit. She started on a 650 Vstar - right size but not enough power. She then went to a 1300 Vstar Tourer which she loved for the power and stability on the highway, but with her at just under 5'2" it was simply too big a bike for her to comfortably handle in parking lots and city streets. The 1200 Sportster is much lighter and a little less wide so it fits her very well while still having the power she wants. It also has some tech that I would like to see on the FJR (self cancelling turn signals and proximity key).

We did buy it from the local HD clothing boutique, but I think the experience you will get is very much dealership dependent. Our experience was excellent. They are friendly, knowledgeable and responsive and took good care of us. Yes, they have a large clothing section, but they would be stupid not to take advantage of the brand identity and the revenue they gain from a loyal following. I certainly would be more confident buying a bike there than at other local bike shops where I have not had the same positive experiences. Definitely a trip out of town for my next bike.

Really it comes down to your own preferences. If you like the bike or the image that comes with it (HD or otherwise) then great. If not, then get something else. I don't agree that HD are the sorriest of bikes. Certainly no complaints about my wife's HD, but admittedly that is a pretty small sample size.

 

[mech 1 twa]

it switches my mind into a different type of awareness

I can see the attraction of just an easy cruise through the back roads enjoying the scenery on a Harley. Heck, 99% of the bikes I meet on back roads are Harley's. I don't bash the brand or their riders (unless they deserve it) but having never actually rode one, I do wonder what it's like. My son went from a CBR1000RR to a Harley. Imagine that! I told him next time we ride together we'll have to switch bikes. We'll see if there is a sig line change after that.

I have tried a couple times to test ride a Harley at our local dealership but they don't allow it.

Many dealers will rent you one for the day- weekend etc.

I'm not a fan myself but Most riders are okay. A few actually are good riders and can ride fast and far .

 

[El Guapo Loco]

I thought it an interesting query.
Perspective:

I have owned 10-12 bikes in my 50 trips around the sun. Sometimes several at a time. none exotic all special in their own way. Sometimes several graced my stable at the same time.

5 of them were HD. some came home in boxes and were resurrected, some came home from a trade or someone that fell on hard times.

a knuckle, a shovel, an AMF, plus some more contemporary. the jap bikes were many and mostly of the race ready type. Gen 1 GSXR 1000 was the beginning of my two wheel insanity, which i somehow survived. (as dangerous as it was fast - not recommended)

Most of my friends ride sensible bikes. Mostly FJR's now. none have every been astride a harley, and they generally hate them. to each their own.

Then i came to the FJR world (growing old i wanted to slow down?)

i tested all ST contenders and the FJR was the hands down winner and pushed ALL the right buttons. I still knee down with ease and grace on this sublime machine. I have done 1000 mile days.

and yet, i miss the slow tractor ride through the country side on the old shovel.

They all had so much personality (one actually wanted me dead or crippled and tried to kill me every time we went out on a date - she was a very angry girl and now much happier in another mans arms)

I would have another one in a minute, the old kick start shovel or knuckle rigid frame. or a modern street glide for that matter.

Throwing my leg over a harley has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks of me. i give zero *****. I've never ridden in a gang though i am a member of two MC clubs.

but the HD, it switches my mind into a different type of awareness.

it's odd and i can't explain it really, but the same on-ramp i triple digit EVERY SINGLE TIME on the sport bike and often on the FJR, is a lazy easy slide on the harley.

My odds of dying on any bike due to someone else being stupid remain a constant.

My odds of dying at my own hands drop drastically on the Harley. (i recognize how confusing this might sound to some, but the mindset and edge i ride at is very different - obviously partially due to machine capabilities, but i digress)

Life is too short to worry about appearances in my world.

and i appreciate those who appreciate that we don't all have to agree.

my $.02

Hey - THANKS for your $.02. Now we're getting somewhere. A bike that's safe® 'cause it's big, slow and "relaxed."

AND there's the classic aspect. You're the first to mention it. I have not ridden a knuckle or even seen one, except in pictures/videos. Pans and shovels I have done. And I suppose I appreciate the nostalgia thing in a second-hand way...

But we're really talking about a new (or at least newER) harley, and what makes people choose them...

 

[El Guapo Loco]

It has already been said that a lot of the Harley phenomenon comes down to marketing. They have developed their brand and 'style' and a lot of people like it. A job well done in that respect really. As for me, I have not owned an HD. They just don't make the style of bike I want. My wife, however, has a newer Sportster. While I believe she is somewhat drawn to that HD style, the biggest reason for the purchase was simply that the bike fit. She started on a 650 Vstar - right size but not enough power. She then went to a 1300 Vstar Tourer which she loved for the power and stability on the highway, but with her at just under 5'2" it was simply too big a bike for her to comfortably handle in parking lots and city streets. The 1200 Sportster is much lighter and a little less wide so it fits her very well while still having the power she wants. It also has some tech that I would like to see on the FJR (self cancelling turn signals and proximity key).
We did buy it from the local HD clothing boutique, but I think the experience you will get is very much dealership dependent. Our experience was excellent. They are friendly, knowledgeable and responsive and took good care of us. Yes, they have a large clothing section, but they would be stupid not to take advantage of the brand identity and the revenue they gain from a loyal following. I certainly would be more confident buying a bike there than at other local bike shops where I have not had the same positive experiences. Definitely a trip out of town for my next bike.

Really it comes down to your own preferences. If you like the bike or the image that comes with it (HD or otherwise) then great. If not, then get something else. I don't agree that HD are the sorriest of bikes. Certainly no complaints about my wife's HD, but admittedly that is a pretty small sample size.

Well no, man... not sorry in that way. I liked the harleys I had.

I spoke in reference to the criterion I listed and harley's performance in those criterion. And if I had a fistfull of dollars to buy a bike, harley would not even garner a single thought.

But the people that do choose them... I'm trying to understand the process of thinking that yields that choice. If you think harleys are safe, think again! Ever try to panic stop one? Ever had to stop in the middle of a parking lot maneuver?

All the bad things about a bagger are very well known. There must be good things that not only negate the well-known bad things but actually swing the balance to "buy it." Those things remain unknown...

I'm waiting for somebody to do a post and say: I like my harley because... and I bought my harley because...

I'm looking for those good things, man!