The ST market and the FJR

[OBFJR]

"SAM" I dunno, how about Self Absorbed Moron. Just kidding....give me a break, it's late!

 

[Jkern1]

Sam = size of avaiable market

 

[SkooterG]

Unless you know the internal manufacturing and sales counts for FJR's each year...it's just speculation. Yes, it's a maturing But, until or unless we have hard numbers....it's all supposition.

You say supposition........

I say mental masturbation.

I like mine better.

 

[tripletango]

A lot depends on your definition of Sport Touring? FJR owners are more sport oriented but more and more choices are becoming available. My apologies for bringing a bike with a tractor engine here but just as with the BMW twin - things they are evolving.

Can this bike or it genre be classified as a sport tourer? Or does a sport tourer need to be fully faired? For this market segment to be shrinking there sure are a bunch of new bikes appearing that want a share of this market.

Read on

Details are beginning to emerge on Moto Guzzi's new 1200 Sport that we are expecting to be revealed at the Milan Motorcycle Show next month.

Using the new high torque 1200cc engine remapped for sports use in the Breva frame with some more sporty suspension and a more sporty riding position.

Dressed (well, naked with a bikini fairing actually) all in black with white racing number plates, flat bars and a sculptured seat, it looks the business in a Guzzi kind of way. Though it's also available in red.

The standard bike comes with Braking Wave wavy discs, and ABS is available as an option.

A further option is a racing kit that consists of high compression heads with polished ports and a beautifully sounding racing 2-1-2 exhaust system.

Accessories include:

- anti theft system,

- 29 litre panniers,

- 28 or 45 litre topbox,

- top box bag (doubles up as a shoulder bag),

- rear rack,

- tank bag,

- lowered (by 3cm) gel saddle,

- centre stand,

- bike cover (with 1200 Sport logo)

 

[Dan23]

Well, there are those who believe that sport-touring is more an activity that a style of motorcycle, so I'll assume that this thread is actually about motorcycles with hard bags included from the factory? So, sould we include various iterations of H-D's FL series? How about the Goldwing? If you include those bikes, the S-T market is huge.

Perhaps you will reject the FL's as too anemic engine-wise to be S-T's. Rethink that as the latest FL 96 ci engine will make you use the upper range of your FJR's throttle if you want to keep up. And if you think the FL's are slow on twisty roads, you need just one ride with someone who knows how to hustle the bike around. Granted, the FJR and it's close cousins are faster and will leave the FL's for dead when the road really tightens, and my point is not defense of H-D (even if the Harley comes with a six speed), but rather to support the idea that the S-T market is larger than many of you seem to think; that is, if you define S-T-ing bikes as those with factory hard bags included and whose owners actually will hit the road with the bikes and stay away for several nights at a time.

So, where does this leave the FJR? IMO, it is one possible solution in an expanding sea of motorcyles intended to get away from home, carrying two people, and adaptable to a wide range of roads... yet easily usable for day to day transport. Mainly, it's the performance potential that stratifies bikes within the S-T market segment. It's just one's personal preference that limits options to one or two bikes.

The Duc ST3, various BMW's, ST1300, Concours 14 and other bikes I've surely omitted all exist for a reason: this market is alive and doing well.

 

[tripletango]

Dan, agree with you 100%. There are poseurs on all bikes - the sport group and the cruisers. However there are hard core milage makers in those groups too.

I have seen guys touring on Busas and Harley Dynas and a whole lot in between.

My point is that if you want to travel comfortably and fast the choices are now greater than ever before and the bikes are even better.

For me an FJR is a super ride for racking up the miles in a day in comfort but it is way too heavy to be called a super sport tourer. Bikes like the Tiger and MG1200S, ST3, VFR etc. are more of that ilk. Light fast and relatively comfortable, have factory hard bags and plenty of farkles available. Not Iron Butt stuff but lots of fun for the weekend or for the annual holiday trip.

 

[Jaxfan]

I am lucky enough to have both a 2006 FJR and a 2003 Big Dog Pit Bull (250 rear tire w/ a hard tail). I also have a wife who loves to ride. We spent 4 hours (iron-butts please stop laughing, i'm trying here) last Saturday riding the FJR around with friends and the wife got off and felt great! We have ridden to Daytona (an hour and a half maybe) on the Big Dog and peed blood for a day!! :dribble:

If you have ridden a v-twin you know it is a completely different ride. I don't ride it for comfort, but if I passed you on the road while riding the Big Dog, your wife/girlfriend/daughter would want to ride with me!! :yahoo: Just something different about it.

That said, when I go for a ride, I first reach for my FJR keys and think how much easier it is to enjoy riding!

IMHO all motorcycle segments seem to be growing. God knows I'm doing my part!!

 

[GreyGoose]

Lets look at this from another perspective that i feel is a good one. What is the total "SAM" of rider that are in the market for a sport-touring bike? Also what are the buying habits of that type of rider? Out of the overall riding community sport-tours make up a very small percentage, so the number of people that are even considering these type of bikes is limited. Also most people that buy ST bikes hold on to them for a while, they do not flip them every year for the next best thing. So the number of units sold will slowly decrease to the extent that the FJR grabs more market share, or the potential buying base increases. There is one major factor that can offset this, which is competition. The ST space is getting very crowded.(THIS IS A GOOD THING) You have bikes like the, ST1300,FJR,k1200gt,new concourse,R1200rt,Sprint st, ECT. ECT. The point being there are many good choices for ST bikes on the market, so it will fragment the overall ST market even more. Yamaha knows this, and that is why they did the PDP. But, with the success of the PDP they may have over estimated what the true demand will be in the market place. Because the bubble of early adaptors have probably already bought their FJR and will not be buying another bike for 3-7 years. So i believe that in 2007 or 2008 we will see many FJR sitting on showroom floor, with heavy discounts, not because it is a bad bike, but because of the over saturation of the ST market. So in conclusion is the FJR market drying up? Maybe, 2007 will be a year where we can really see if that is true.
This is a repost but i'm a little interested to see what people think about this. True, False or just indifferent

I happen to agree with this assessment. what i'm seeing is that very few 'outsiders" crave the sport tourer. The boomers want harley type bikes and arent interested in getting out more than once a month on sunny days. The young crowd wants sport bikes. I know very few converts from those markets to "sport tourers". I've also never met anyone who had a sport tourer that ever went back to anything else. This market will remain at its current state IMHO. There will always be a core of us dyehards, while a few "others" trickle in and trickle out. Why do you think honda isnt very interested in making modifications to the ST (even though it doesent fair well against the competition)? If the sport touring class was a money maker, they'd be all over it. The wing and 600cc classes gets there due dilagence due to demand for the product. Next time you go to a bike meet, take a look around. If you werent paying really really close attention, you wouldnt even know the sport touring market exists.

GreyGoose

 

[JoshHefnerX]

Yamaha, Honda ect will continue to sell bikes as long as it's profitable... What else is there to say?

Josh

 

[ohiofjr]

A Wing or an FLH or a Trident all fall into the big rig category. I would define a S-T bike as being smaller, lighter, with enough performance to to be a genuine hoot in the twisties. The fact that a bike gets several states away regularly or gets 30k miles a year is not what makes it an S-T. Here in Flatland USA the nearest decent twisty road is 50 miles away and my Fjr serves wonderfully to get me there comfortably enough to enjoy it. I still get 300-400 miles a ride but there is no hotel at the other end.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Well, there are those who believe that sport-touring is more an activity that a style of motorcycle.[/u]

This is so true. Sport touring is an activity. The bikes that call themselves Sport Tourers are often not used that way, and bikes that wouldn't come close to the "normal" definition of sport tourer are often racking up more miles than most riders of any bike would dream of. That said, I feel that the Sport Touring market is nowhere near maxed out.

1) Motorcycling popularity is still growing

2) Gas prices are driving people into looking at bikes as a primary vehicle (more often than before)

3) Sport touring bikes are clearly the best available motorcycles to satisfy what many people look for: comfort, performance, touring

Lastly, the EU market for them is much larger than here so the sport touring models are sustainable (they will make them for the EU market and they might as well make the extra money of selling them here if they have them)

That's my story, and I might not stick to it

 

[Jkern1]

Yamaha, Honda ect will continue to sell bikes as long as it's profitable... What else is there to say?
Josh

Do you really believe that Honda, Yamaha make money on all their bikes? I bet if you say a breakdown of the profitablity of their platform it would say that some bikes after discounting ECT ECT actual cost them money. But other platform have high margins IE the cruiser lines, and make up for the looser in their line.

 

[gr8eyes]

From a business sense why would you sell something you loose money on. Maybe for a very short period of time but over the long haul your out of business.

You can't spend more than you bring in. wish the gov't would learn that little lesson. OOPS not to be political of course.

Glenn

 

[unclekunkle]

So in conclusion is the FJR market drying up?

I my opinion, the sport touring market is just getting its legs. Comfort, performance and utilitarian values are what consumers are eagar for. Just like in the early 90's when SUV's became all the rage, it was all about having one vehicle that can do everything.

Enduro's like KLR's are cool, with emphasis on off road. Crotch Rocket bikes are cool with emphasis on speed. Naked bikes have some of the attributes, Harleys are too expensive for many...but the Sport Touring bikes seem to have that special combination that will continue to have appeal to the motorcycle community.

ST's are comfortable, high performance utility oriented machines that possess that mystifiying aura of freedom that comes with their built in luggage. They simply make sense...and believe me, there are riders out there that haven't even discovered the ST world yet.

 

[twowheelnut]

From a business sense why would you sell something you loose money on. Maybe for a very short period of time but over the long haul your out of business.
You can't spend more than you bring in. wish the gov't would learn that little lesson. OOPS not to be political of course.

Glenn

Ahhh, the old Loss Leader trick... Home Depot uses this all of the time: They advertise or merchandise stuff at or below cost, cuz they know you're thinking, "Gee, while I'm here, I mi'aswell, pick up that paint for the living room and while the old lady's on the rag, I mi'aswell get that new lawn mower..."

Toyota and Honda put out their hybrids at or below their cost as a marketing, 'Hey, look at us! We're Green and good corporate citizens!', and also as a thinly disguised way to help bump their inner CAFE numbers to offset the abysmal mileage their trucks were/are getting.

 

[Mosa]

Well, there are those who believe that sport-touring is more an activity that a style of motorcycle.[/u]

This is so true. Sport touring is an activity. The bikes that call themselves Sport Tourers are often not used that way, and bikes that wouldn't come close to the "normal" definition of sport tourer are often racking up more miles than most riders of any bike would dream of. That said, I feel that the Sport Touring market is nowhere near maxed out.

1) Motorcycling popularity is still growing

2) Gas prices are driving people into looking at bikes as a primary vehicle (more often than before)

3) Sport touring bikes are clearly the best available motorcycles to satisfy what many people look for: comfort, performance, touring

Lastly, the EU market for them is much larger than here so the sport touring models are sustainable (they will make them for the EU market and they might as well make the extra money of selling them here if they have them)

That's my story, and I might not stick to it

+1 on the activity instead of the bike style.... I rode my 97 Honda Valkyrie 'Tourer' as a Sport Touring bike more often than not...I used to go thru footpegs once a year from grindin em down so much.... :blink: ... I think ST is more mental than bike build... (IMHO)

Mosa

 

[warsw]

+1 on the activity instead of the bike style.... I rode my 97 Honda Valkyrie 'Tourer' as a Sport Touring bike more often than not...I used to go thru footpegs once a year from grindin em down so much.... :blink: ... I think ST is more mental than bike build... (IMHO)Mosa

The Honda Valkyrie is a cruiser not a sport-tourer. You can grind down the pegs all you want (very easy on a Valkyrie) but that doesn't make it a "Sport Tourer". It is not how you ride it. It is what the bike was designed for.

 

[sprint_st]

what i'm seeing is that very few 'outsiders" crave the sport tourer. The boomers want harley type bikes and arent interested in getting out more than once a month on sunny days. The young crowd wants sport bikes. I know very few converts from those markets to "sport tourers". I've also never met anyone who had a sport tourer that ever went back to anything else. This market will remain at its current state IMHO. There will always be a core of us dyehards, while a few "others" trickle in and trickle out. Why do you think honda isnt very interested in making modifications to the ST (even though it doesent fair well against the competition)? If the sport touring class was a money maker, they'd be all over it. The wing and 600cc classes gets there due dilagence due to demand for the product. Next time you go to a bike meet, take a look around. If you werent paying really really close attention, you wouldnt even know the sport touring market exists.

Paraphrasing a Supreme Court Justice on the topic of pornography, "I may not be able to define Sport Touring, but I know it when I see it." When I strapped a duffel bag on my CB160 in 1966 and went sailing through WV down to Ocracoke with a CB450 and a Yamaha 350 2-stroke, we were sport touring. A Gold Wing AIN'T a sport tourer!!! HD doesn't make sport tourers, but a few of those guys really do sport touring. Although Beemer and Guzzi drivers can make a pretty good claim to the contrary, IMO the first real ground up sport tourer was the Kawasaki Concours, but it really isn't the bike as much as the mind set of the driver. If there wasn't a growing market why did Kawasaki make the Connie 14 after twenty years of consistent sales of the old Connie. That's twenty years of income with all retool investment paid up long time ago. Why did Honda make the ST1100 and then the ST1300? If Sport Touring is a declining market why is the new Triumph ST's and Tiger selling so well. Anyone care to put up some pesos to bet against 95%+ sales of 2007 FJR1300A's in the US this year????

 

[krashdragon]

what i'm seeing is that very few 'outsiders" crave the sport tourer. The boomers want harley type bikes and arent interested in getting out more than once a month on sunny days. The young crowd wants sport bikes. I know very few converts from those markets to "sport tourers". I've also never met anyone who had a sport tourer that ever went back to anything else. This market will remain at its current state IMHO. There will always be a core of us dyehards, while a few "others" trickle in and trickle out. Why do you think honda isnt very interested in making modifications to the ST (even though it doesent fair well against the competition)? If the sport touring class was a money maker, they'd be all over it. The wing and 600cc classes gets there due dilagence due to demand for the product. Next time you go to a bike meet, take a look around. If you werent paying really really close attention, you wouldnt even know the sport touring market exists.

Paraphrasing a Supreme Court Justice on the topic of pornography, "I may not be able to define Sport Touring, but I know it when I see it." When I strapped a duffel bag on my CB160 in 1966 and went sailing through WV down to Ocracoke with a CB450 and a Yamaha 350 2-stroke, we were sport touring. A Gold Wing AIN'T a sport tourer!!! HD doesn't make sport tourers, but a few of those guys really do sport touring. Although Beemer and Guzzi drivers can make a pretty good claim to the contrary, IMO the first real ground up sport tourer was the Kawasaki Concours, but it really isn't the bike as much as the mind set of the driver. If there wasn't a growing market why did Kawasaki make the Connie 14 after twenty years of consistent sales of the old Connie. That's twenty years of income with all retool investment paid up long time ago. Why did Honda make the ST1100 and then the ST1300? If Sport Touring is a declining market why is the new Triumph ST's and Tiger selling so well. Anyone care to put up some pesos to bet against 95%+ sales of 2007 FJR1300A's in the US this year????

New Tiger Seat Height 835mm (32.8in) hmmm... if I could lower that a bit....<G>

My kid has my 1200 Bandit in Cali.... the Tiger is close but looks more comfortable.....

shave the set, lowering links and shorter fork springs... yeah... I can do that....and it's about 200 lbs lighter.....even 50 lbs lighter than my naked Bandit...

add the hard luggage... still 150 lbs lighter then the FJR....

the Speed Triple has a bit lower seat, and a few lbs lighter...

the Sprint ST has hard bags and close to the Tiger weight/seat height....

Triumph calls them Urban Sports bikes.... they might have something there.....

When the sportbikers get a few years older, they wont' want cruisers... i love my Harley but sport bikes and sport tourers are so easy to ride compared to cruisers, that the market demand will only go up as the ex sportbikers discover that they can sit on something like the FJR more more than an hour without sore wrists and a backache.

Look at all the old fogies my age that grew up with muscle cars... now they're buying them back... not because the new cars today wont' go as fast, but just because they love them...

There is no substitute for horsepower.

Nothing like the feeling of G forces when you floor a musclecar... :yahoo:

and nothing like the burning smell of peeling rubber...

Not even billet.... as witness the guys that rebuild and re-engineer H-D's to get more power out of them.

Kinda like comparing a MoPar Charger hemi with an Austin Healey Bug eye Sprite.. or Triumph Spitfire...

totally different animals, but both lots of fun...

and some people want both.... like me......<hehehehehe>

Mary

 

[Dan23]

Two sides of a coin that define the discussion:

" Well, there are those who believe that sport-touring is more an activity than a style of motorcycle..."

And:

"It is not how you ride it. It is what the bike was designed for."

Verb or noun? Shrug.