The Tao of Controlled Fast

Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum

Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The Pace is more condusive to street riding, IMHO. The Pace Have a read and think about the ideas presented there.
OCfjr;

Thanks very much for posting this link.... I didn't respond right away because I've taken the time to go back and read thru the Pace a couple of times. I found the illustration on cornering to be very helpful -- exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. If I see a visual that sticks with me -- the ability to translate that to practical experience increases dramatically.

Appreciate the advice on the several forms of classes available -- I will look into it.

Thanks again

Patrick

 
Dana;

"i guarentee you i'll be talking and thinking my way thru eom, but it will be 'my own ride'...

glad i'm not alone...

thanks for posting..."

Thanks for posting THAT! I'm very grateful that no-one has dumped on me for being honest about the situation, but I was beginning to get the sense that I was a minority of one. B) This morning I did some ordering on Amazon and will spend some part of this next weekend trying to assimilate and implement. Practice, practice, practice...

Haven't made a final decision on EOM yet, but you'll definitely get some encouragement from me if I make it there.

Patrick

 
Patrick, I am an OLD rider (calendar years, not riding experience) but am NOT a BOLD rider. I mostly ride solo and, as you did, always talk to myself abt what I've read and been taught. I am fortunate enough to live near some very good mountain roads and that gives me an opportunity to practice in twisties quite a bit.

I do not consider public roads to be the equivalent of a race track. And, when riding in groups, when I get that feeling of "Whoa! I'm going too fast!" I'll slow down and ride w/in myself. I would rather lose the group than have to tell the paramedics "I stayed w/ them for 2 corners before I crashed."

Good luck w/ your journey of learning...I would bet that you will have just as much fun riding w/in yourself as any hot rod sportbiker.

If you make it to EOM, look me up.

 
There are many different techniques for learning and we each have ones that work best for us. Personally, I learn best by doing. The way to become a better rider is to get out there and ride. If this was your first experience on twisty mountain roads, it sounds like you did pretty well. Your mistake was in trying to keep up with the more experienced riders. As everyone else has said, ride your ride, keep a pace you are comfortable with. When you find your concentration waning pull over and take a short break. The group you are riding with will wait for you some where along the road or even come looking for you.

There will always be people who can ride better and faster than I can.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
....I would rather lose the group than have to tell the paramedics "I stayed w/ them for 2 corners before I crashed."
Good luck w/ your journey of learning...I would bet that you will have just as much fun riding w/in yourself as any hot rod sportbiker.

If you make it to EOM, look me up.
Thanks Brazos -- great perspective there!! I really appreciate the encouragement and benefit of your experience. I want to say again that none of my companions on Saturday was hot-dogging or riding carelessly -- they just rode a lot better than I did. I guess, in retrospect, I must be much more of a flower-sniffer while riding than a performance rider. Being on a bike has been a wonderful way to de-stress and see the world in a new window. I've also relished the heightened sensory input from the outdoors which you just don't get in a car. But, since the terrain around these parts includes these challenging mountain roads -- I need to get myself better equipped to tackle them so I can enjoy the ride. I live maybe 45 minutes from the run up to Skyline drive on Rt 211. Don't know why I haven't integrated that into my practice regime -- but it will be now.

Thanks again and best regards!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"As everyone else has said, ride your ride, keep a pace you are comfortable with. When you find your concentration waning pull over and take a short break. The group you are riding with will wait for you some where along the road or even come looking for you.

There will always be people who can ride better and faster than I can."

AMEN Geezer, amen!!

good point!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Patrick,

very similar situation to yours, I commend you for stepping back when you should have, I was fortunate also, luck is sometimes with us.

The thing that helped me the most was becoming an MSF instructor. After teaching dozens and dozens of BRC's and ERC's I discovered 2 things:

1) All the info you need to become an accomplished rider is in those courses.

2) not all MSF instructors are created equal. I've seen some that after many years dont' understand what they are teaching, and basically just "read the book" to the students.

Here are the main steps that need to be understood re cornering:

1) As you are approaching the corner, you need to be slowing. (How you slow is controversial, some use both brakes, some just the front, some just the rear - lets' leave that for another thread).

2) the question you have to ask yourself now is... How much do I slow? The only way you can make that judgement (and it is a judgement for ea and every corner), is to be looking as far through that corner as you possibly can "before you are in the corner!!".

3) So when you are still going straight, and approaching the corner, you're slowing and looking as far through as you can at the same time. What you see of the curve determines how much you slow.

4) after slowing to the properly judged entry speed, release the brake(s) and press the handgrip in the direction you're turning. Assuming you've judged the proper entry speed, the lean created by the press will be comfortable, and you'll increase it as you practice.

(dont try braking in a corner until you've become very experienced with your bikes traction abilities at lean, it's an advanced technique, and one the MSF doesn't recommend).

5) Keep a steady throttle or increase slightly as you go around the corner, continue to look as far through the turn as possible, when you see the exit, you can start to get on the throttle and power through. Twisting the throttle will make the bike stand back up, which is what you want as you exit the curve.

The hardest thing for new students seems to be turning their head and looking in a different direction then where they are going now. Remember, where you're going now, you were looking at a few seconds ago, you didnt' see any obstacles in the road then, so they wont be there a few seconds later ;)

practice parctice practice practice practice - along with the 2 other major things they teach - emergency swerving and emergency braking. Skills that can save your life.

lastly, if you make a mistake and find yerself in a corner too hot, the best course of action, if you cant straighten up and stop in the corner, would probably to be to lean over more. Most of us dont lean near what the bike is capable of.

Best wishes, enjoy, regards all,

 
Ooops one other thing I forgot to mention (early morning ;) )

To flatten the radius of a curve, use an outside, inside, outside path of travel. This means you will be inside at the apex of the curve. Sometimes you need to control youself to not apex the corner too early.

Some pics might help;

https://ezwebresults.com/4sale/

Notice the head turn, path of travel, etc.

Last ride on the big ST throught Deals Gap, just sold it yesterday. Didn't cross a center line the entire time. Touched down the center stand once. Had Sonic springs 1.2kg on at the time. Suspension setup is oh so important too.

best wishes,

 
Ride your own bike.

You may think you are not doing something right but it sounds to me like you did - there were obstacles in the road and you successfully negotiated them without going down - there are a number of "faster" riders on this forum who can't say that anymore.

It doesn't take much talent to ride too fast for conditions and then crash.

To me, a "good" ride is not dependent on whether I ride what others consider fast - it's if me and the bike are upright at the end.

 
""I found that I was talking out loud to myself thru the turns repeating the basics -- look thru the turn, push left go left, push right go right. lean into the turn, even throttle, control, control""

I soooo relate to your post and your concerns. I ride behind a person with 40 years continual time on street bikes. I have 11 months experience licenced, 3 of those with the bike parked due to winter weather. I am the quintessential noob!

I took a MSC. Did very well. I have the luxury of having someone very safety conscious and very experienced to critique my rides daily. I would say that as far as skill goes I am very far ahead of most with a similar time in the saddle, BUT...I am pretty sure that confidence isn't the best thing at the end of day. There are days I am over confident without just cause. There are days I pressure myself to ride like I have 40 years experience, but that is just...dumb. I have ridden days like you posted. Ridden with people I'd dearly love to keep up to. I have gone thru corner after corner telling myself the same things you did. "Look up, look thru, push left, push right...". I mean, they can do it, why shouldn't I be able to? I have gotten off my bike and said to myself..."You are lucky. You rode like an *** past your abilities. You are an *****."

I try not to do that anymore. I know the word 'try' sounds odd, but it is the best descriptor I have. There are so many factors that tempt us to mitigate logic and take risks. Part of human nature. I made a conscious decision to park my ego, park my desires, focus on what I am comfortable doing, and now and then, as safe circumstances permit, push myself just a tiny bit and explore some theory by applying what I have learned thru books, discussion with experienced riders, etc, to my ride. As other people have stated; know yourself, know your abilities, ride YOUR ride, suck up knowledge from books, other riders, courses, BUT... practice practice practice. Nothing replaces time in the saddle for gaining knowledge and experience. There is no "Evelyn Wood Speed Riding Course".

For me, the best thing I can do is: A. LEARN-suck up knowledge from reputable sources, B. Practice safely to apply that knowledge until it becomes 2nd nature, C. Be patient.

I have the most trouble with item "C"

 
Here are the main steps that need to be understood re cornering:
noob;

most excellent!! that was extremely helpful. thank you for taking the time to articulate clearly what is happening in the human mechanics part of the picture. very much appreciated.

Thanks!!

 
Barb;

This was great:



"There is no "Evelyn Wood Speed Riding Course"."
:lol: I about rolled out of my chair at work!! point well well-taken though. And frankly, thats encouraging.



"For me, the best thing I can do is: A. LEARN-suck up knowledge from reputable sources, B. Practice safely to apply that knowledge until it becomes 2nd nature, C. Be patient.
I have the most trouble with item "C""
I honestly appreciate the fact that I haven't been flamed with this thread -- the advice and experience of other riders is invaluable and exactly what I was seeking. The exercise has been very helpful for me.

As far as C... thats the one we all get hung up about. But I'm willing to try.

Thanks very much for your thoughts.

Best regards

 
For me the most important thing about riding the mountains is never over ride your sight line. Don't go so fast that if you come around a blind corner and see a deer carcase or something in your line that you can't stop or swerve.

Phil

 
FOR ANY MOD READING:

This is a most excellent thread which should be pinned.

It does come up at least a couple times per year and this thread is the best response I remember.

Noob gets my vote for Best post of the year award. Very nice.

His instructions didn't directly say "Target Fixation", but that's how you prevent it and keep the shiny side up.

Last couple of EOM's we had someone go down because of it.

When sport riding on the street, Target Fixation can be a lethal error for either rookies, or veterans if their attention ever wanes. I think that covers all of us.

P.S.

I'll ride with anyone who tires to ride the PACE.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
No matter how long you've been riding, there is someone faster, and it will always be an issue you have to deal with with your left brain, telling yourself: STOP trying to keep up. For me, this is particularly an issue when I get tired, and I have been contemplating a post about something I learned when I was very tired and noticed I was not riding well.

My best advice is to read Nick Ienatsch's "Sport Riding Techniques" at least once, and to practice what he suggests (even in the car when the lessons fit there) periodically.

There is no substitute for experience, but you can shorten the curve by understanding what you're really trying to do. Not sure I can recall talking to myself about mechanics, but I do regularly remind myself that the most important thing is looking as far through a corner as possible. 50+ years skiing and 40+ years on a bike help with the inate part, but I backslide from time to time, mostly when I get tired, and especially at the end of a long day. That's the time to beware and slow down for me.

I'd MUCH prefer you show up a little later and in one piece at the next stop than to have you try to keep up with a group that is riding at a pace that is over your head. It's really not an inconvenience to have the last rider or three be behind. But a crash is pretty much the worst thing that can happen on a ride -- for the whole group (even if it is far worse for the crashER). I prefer leaders who don't just run away like rabbits, and periodically check to make sure that the slower contingent is still up and along.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Patrick - you have already made several very smart and mature moves. One was to ride with a group of decent folks who wouldn't push you beyond your limits. Two was to call it quits when you felt the time was right. Three was to admit your shortcomings and ask for help. Failure to do any one of these could result in bad stuff happening.

I've learned (the hard way) why 'Ride-Your-Own-Ride' is so important. I rode a local twisty road with a large group. Even though I opted to go with the slow contingent, I couldn't keep up comfortably. I was stupid enough to keep up uncomfortably. Recently, I rode the same road with Fairlaner and Barabus. Each of them chose their own pace, and so did I. There were times when I was up close behind them and others when I was all alone on the road. I rode my own ride, knowing that I was with decent guys who would respect that. We met up at a couple of way points and all enjoyed the day out.

The MSF talks about the ladder of risk. Each of us picks a level that we want to be at. How much risk do YOU want to take? You can lower the risks with training, experience, good gear, modest speeds or raise them with the opposite of those factors. For some riders, having alcohol/drugs on board is an acceptable risk. Others prefer to be sober. Some riders enjoy the knee-dragging level of fast cornering. Others prefer less lean angle. Some even ride motorcycles that don't lean over very well, so they don't ride on twisties.

It's all about personal choice. The best advice I have to offer is to relax, decide what you want out of YOUR ride and pursue that, through education and experience.

Jill

 
Your honesty and clarity of thought/writing is definitely worth some thoughtful response. So I am going to attempt making a worthwhile reply.

First, I have over 30 years of licensed street riding under my belt, and more than 40 years dirt experience. What that means is that I have been stupid more times than you will ever get the chance to be.

:)

Here goes...

If I may, I'd like to submit a serious request for advice... after reading thru the following -- flame and kick at me all you want but then please add your thoughts that I might attain your level of wisdom and practice.
I volunteer to personally kick anyone's a$$ who puts down someone for being honest as you have.

Yesteray I joined JimLor, FJR Gary, and E1Allen for JimLor's test ride of the 2-Up EOM run he's planning.
There's the hint of your first mistake. I have ridden with E1Allen, and he is one of the boldest young riders I've ever seen on the FJR. His forte is flat-out WFO runs, and he has no quarrel with gagging the motor for all it will do. But he is well under 30 and has yet to develop into his full sense of mortality. :)

After a short time I honestly felt like I may have been over my head & was definitely holding them back... that, in concert with this overwhelming desire to click the ruby slippers 3 times and chant "there's no place like home".
I'll admit to feeling EXACTLY the same after my first group ride at EOM last year. The FJR was new to me and I had never owned a bike with anywhere close to its capabilities. Humans tend to become better at things we do repetitively. So there's nothing wrong with practice or the recognition that you need or want some!

At our lunch stop I decided that I had to ride within my comfort zone which in reality meant that the distances between myself and my friends became even greater. When our route came near an intersection for a major highway - I threw a quick salute to E1Allen and headed in the opposite direction for home. Beleve me, not my most stellar moment.
Wrong, [SIZE=14pt]WRONG,[/SIZE] [SIZE=24pt]WRONG!!![/SIZE]

I bet that will go down in history as one of your MOST stellar moments. It's the moment when you realized and owned that it was not your pace, not your day, not your time. In racing it is said that "anybody can win a race, but a true champion has to be able to recognize a good day from a bad one and manage the differences every day."

Can you describe to me in a clear way how you approach these kinds of roads. What is your technique? What is happening with braking and accelerating? Where are you at in the gear range? I know -- look thru the turn -- I was doing look thru the turn. I know lean, I was trying to lean. But, what about the mechanics of riding it? What are your hands and feet doing? Yeh, I know I need to get my butt to some schooling and learn in a controlled environment but I have no idea when I can do that... too many kids and grandkids means little disposable income. I'd like some practical advice for now. I want to get a clear mental picture so I can practice. Hell, I'll shoot the mountain over 211 in the Shenandoahs all next weekend to practice. But I don't want to let this get the better of me, I want to learn it right, and I want to not be intimidated by the conditions.
There's been a lot of mentions about MSF courses and such above. Let me say that at the ripe old age of 45, I took the MSF course. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. I was so very impressed and so very amazed and so very pleased, to learn that much of what that course teaches I do automatically without thinking about it. My Dad was my original instructor, followed by years of learning to read and react to cagers from a motorcycle perspective.

I'll say this as a preface... If you disect my riding technique, it contradicts many of the things people tell you NOT to do. Mainly because I use a lot of braking techniques associated with racing and admittedly, if I screw up, everyone is going to see me crash and burn. But there are some good sense things I have in common with MSF and others.

* Never outrun your line of sight. The only time I make an exception is when following someone that I trust implicitly (like Grumpy). But understand that even then, I understand that I am placing my life in his hands. So never outrun your line of sight unless you would not hesitate to jump on the back with that person and give them free reign with your nads.

* You can only gain as much speed as you can get rid of. (We Southerners love to end a sentence with a preposition.) This is also race mentality, but it holds true on the street. Just how good are you at braking? How quickly and accurately do you assess the stopping distance required by the FJR at a given speed, lean angle, road conditions etc.? Know the bike by learning the bike. But mostly, learn to STOP first. The GO part comes much easier.

* Move your a$$, turn your head, and stop being so damn rigid! One of the true joys of piloting a motorcycle is learning to dance with the machine. This ain't no Gameboy! Become an active part of the ride.

There are some FJR-specific opinions I will also share...

* Let it rev! There's a red-line on the tachometer and a rev-limiter circuit on the ECM. You don't need to be bumping against either of those regularly, but if you let that beasty motor wind up more and then use that engine braking in conjunction with good front brakes, you will be absolutely amazed at how fast the Feej will accel/decel. That allows you to be QUICK, while the bike is upright and stable. This will go a long way towards keeping up with the Jones' on twisties. So "When in doubt, gear down!".

* Leave the junk in the hotel room or at home. I ride with WAY too much gear packed. I actually prefer the CG of the bike with the side bags on and empty, as opposed to off. But I'm guilty of carrying around loads of crap much too often and missing out on just how much better the bike handles with a light load.

Lastly I'll add that if you are conciously thinking of do-this, do-that, tasks as you engage cornering, then IMHO you are already riding over your head. Your conscious thoughts should be of escape plans and not the basic task of getting around the corner. Slow down and think your way into the next corner, but react through it. Always ride a pace where you can PLAN as opposed to THINK. Reaction and timing will come with gas and tire consumption.

It's very easy to get involved in planning the next farkle and forgetting that planning the next trip or ride is just as important. If you are a newbie then you need seat time. There's no substitute and IMHO, group rides are not the best place to get that experience. There are just way too many additional things going on. Try pairing with someone (for safety among other reasons) and do some short bursts with follow-up evaluations. It's really okay to pull off to the roadside and talk about what just happened, no matter how uneventful it may seem.

My $.02

Jeff

 
Last edited by a moderator:
* Never outrun your line of sight. The only time I make an exception is when following someone that I trust implicitly (like Grumpy). But understand that even then, I understand that I am placing my life in his hands. So never outrun your line of sight unless you would not hesitate to jump on the back with that person and give them free reign with your nads.
* Leave the junk in the hotel room or at home. I ride with WAY too much gear packed. I actually prefer the CG of the bike with the side bags on and empty, as opposed to off. But I'm guilty of carrying around loads of crap much too often and missing out on just how much better the bike handles with a light load.

*Lastly I'll add that if you are conciously thinking of do-this, do-that, tasks as you engage cornering, then IMHO you are already riding over your head. Your conscious thoughts should be of escape plans and not the basic task of getting around the corner. Slow down and think your way into the next corner, but react through it. Always ride a pace where you can PLAN as opposed to THINK. Reaction and timing will come with gas and tire consumption.

Jeff
Jeff, said a lot of good points, for me it was not the extra crap but the knowledge that the

bike was not setup right for me. This helps greatly with your perception of the bikes relieablity

in the turns.

Point #2 don't over run your line of sight EVER But I am as guilty of doing this as others.

The last thing is also very inportant but you did the right thing and slowed down, called it a day,

and the best thing of all YOU ASKED FOR HELP..........

I am a member of other web boards and don't think that this topic, if addressed there would

have brought this out pouring of help to anyone.

You good Sir have helped all who take the time to read this topic....

Thank you very much

Chuck

 
Patrick,

Dont ya feel good to be in such awesome company !!! These guys are great and most of us have been around long enough for a little patina to show. The only thing I might add is get an old dirt bike suitable for your size/weight, I prefer 2 strokes, and get out on the dirt/mud/sand and ride the piss out of it. This is a great way to learn balance, and throttle and brake control and much of this will transfer to the street. Its also a blast and errors are forgiven and learned from...at least thats the theory anyway ! You've already shown your wisdom and your willingness to learn !!!

Blessings,

Bobby

 
Hey PlaynGuitar, nice Taylor, T-5 is it ?

Seriously everyone, an excellent thread and most older inexperienced riders can relate.

My story and two cent on the subject. Like PlaynGuitar I came to riding late in life, 52 to be exact. Bought a Honda 750 Magna on e-bay, took the MSF course got my license and I was ready to burn up the roads, read everything I could get my hands on and still do. Lived in Ohio for about the last three years and rode every chance I got, even in freezing temperatures and got what I thought to be was a decent rider. This was fairly easy on straight flat roads in west central Ohio. Last year I moved to the Chattanooga area and realized the old Magna wasn't gonna to cut it riding down here so I bought an 05 FJR. The people I ride with down here are very experienced and good safe riders. I personally like riding with those that have better skills and more experience than myself. I have ridden the Dragon, Cherohala and many other nice twisty roads down here and I'm always sucking hind *** when I'm with my riding friends. I ride my ride and try to enjoy the different road texture and scenery as compared to riding in Ohio. The difference is night and day. I know I am becoming a better rider because my friends have remarked as much. I know becoming a much better rider will come with understanding, time, training and experience. One rider told me if I was really serious, is to do a track day or two. I am planning to get one in some time in the future. Until I develop the skill sets to keep up with my friends I will continue to “ride my ride.” Like others have said, trying keep up with the pack can be a fool’s game and no good results will come out of it. Enjoy the ride and be safe.

 
There's been a lot of good info and positive comments in this thread. I think we are all glad to help a fellow rider to understand that he's not alone, and that improvement in our collective riding skills is an on-going process.

I wanted to add that some days everything feels right and you're just in the groove. Enjoy those days and use them to practice and stretch your skills a little.

Some days you're not in the groove. Those are the days when it seems like you're reacting to things late, not noticing conditions until after you encounter them, having trouble finding the right line for corners, etc. Be aware of that. Back off a little and relax. If you feel the need, put your self in 'scenic mode' or what ever you think of as a reduced speed and more relaxed riding mode. Even if it's a group ride. Perhaps especially if it's a group ride.

You may find that later on, after riding for a while in 'scenic mode' you feel more comfortable and have found yourself dropping into corners more comfortably, being less reactive and more proactive to the conditions and corners. If this happens, and you feel like you're back in the groove, go ahead and dial things up a little more and see if you are still enjoying the ride. Bottom line is that this is supposed to be fun, not stressful. If you're feeling stressed about keeping up or just about taking the corners at speeds where you don't feel in control, SLOW DOWN. Nothing is that important. Live to ride another day.

Eric

 
Top