The Tao of Controlled Fast

[HaulinAshe]

I couldn't agree more with "Live to ride another day".

Maybe it was just my twisted perception, but I initially thought, and do still feel, that sometimes group rides are inferred to be easier or safer than solo or pairs. Just want to say that I consider group rides, especially those of more than four bikes, to be extremely more challenging and dangerous.

Would not want a newbie to have a false sense of security about riding with a group. IMHO

 

[Silver Penguin]

I couldn't agree more with "Live to ride another day".
Maybe it was just my twisted perception, but I initially thought, and do still feel, that sometimes group rides are inferred to be easier or safer than solo or pairs. Just want to say that I consider group rides, especially those of more than four bikes, to be extremely more challenging and dangerous.

Would not want a newbie to have a false sense of security about riding with a group. IMHO

Gunny. It is my belief that smaller groups are much safer than larger ones. My preference is two, perhaps three or a max of four bikes. Even then, the group members are carefully chosen.

I participated in a charity ride one time, and one time only. It was quite a rush to ride on the freeway with just bikes as far as the eye could see, in all directions, but the skill level, aggression level and gotta-prove-something factor were just too variable for my taste.

Jill

 

[Luke]

A most EXCELLENT thread!

After riding all my life and then getting the FJR last year, I found that I didn't know how to ride as well as I had previously thought. I have never owned any sportbike and the FJR's capabilities far exceeded my own. It begs to be ridden "briskly" and well. In only one year with much attention and effort my skills have increased alot yet there are many other riders much better. The FJR rewards the rider when increased knowledge, practice and skill are applied.

I see it as an enjoyable lifelong quest to challenge and increase your riding skills. Much like riding itself, it is a journey to be relished, not an accomplished destination.

Besides what has already been mentioned above, I have found that riding directly behind a superior rider is a great lesson. That is if I pay attention in minute detail as to how they ride: their line in the curves, when they slow-brake-accel, body position and movement around the bike. This, coupled with post-ride discussions on techniques and "why". Given overnight to digest the newly-learned pearls and then application the very next day.... preferably on the same roads. I now ride quicker than I thought the bike could go at first yet am very humbly aware of those who can make my ride seem labored and slow. Yes, it's a journey.

 

[user 213]

Maybe it was just my twisted perception, but I initially thought, and do still feel, that sometimes group rides are inferred to be easier or safer than solo or pairs. Just want to say that I consider group rides, especially those of more than four bikes, to be extremely more challenging and dangerous.
Would not want a newbie to have a false sense of security about riding with a group. IMHO

I think the big part of group rides is knowing how the individuals in the group each ride. If you don't know the other riders, and they don't know each other, you sometimes see typical group mentality. I.E. The group rides as fast as the fastest rider. Conversely, if you know how each of the group members ride, it can be very helpful to pick out the rider who's style is most like yours and hang with them. That puts you in or close to your comfort level with another rider and that can lead you to learning from them by seeing how they ride.

A lot of the tone of a group ride can be set in place by the ride leader at the beginning if they take the time. Making it clear that the riders need to sort themselves out to their own comfort zones is important. Also quickly going over breadcrumbing, (waiting for the following rider at turns or junctions), and agreeing on methods to pull the group over or pre-arranged stopping locations. Not everyone understands group ride ettiquite. Things like following the ride leader even when you know he took a wrong turn.

If the ride leader takes a wrong turn, and the second rider ignores him and continues on, that can easily disrupt the group and cause problems, even accidents, as following riders try to decide what to do. Far better to follow the leader and start flashing your lights to get his attention so the group can pull over together and sort things out.

It's also important to realize how hard it can be to look at the road instead of following the rider ahead of you in a group. You can watch the dynamics of cornering go to hell pretty quickly if riders are watching each other. Riders start turning in sooner and sooner, apexing earlier and eventually having to correct for lines that don't work.

If you catch yourself watching the rider in front of you on a group ride, back off enough that your normal sight line is back on pavement instead of on the rider ahead. Now you're back to reading the road like you should be. If you're looking at the rider ahead, you are NOT looking where you want to go, but where he went and that's not always the same. Not to mention the difference in timing.

Personally I don't mind smaller groups of 5 or less. Especially if I know how the individuals each ride. At an event like EOM or WFO, it's a lot harder to know the riders in a group. You have to pay attention to how you are riding and not be shy about waving a faster rider by or passing a rider that's pushing you off your lines by slowing too much in corners for your pace. If the understanding is there at the beginning of the ride, this won't piss people off, but instead, allow them to feel less pressure with out a faster rider behind them and the stress of trying not to hold them up. Ditto for "keeping up" with faster riders ahead of you.

Most of my riding is by myself or with one or two others. The more riders in the group, the more potential for issues. Hell, I just want to ride.

 

[zorkler]

Its been said many times RIDE your on ride .How many times have you read about a rider going down on a group ride ? There has been many and i have seen one first hand . Next body english is very important . throttle momvement if you notice a rider and do not see there rear brake light go on for a while . it takes pratice . Read you can get alot of info even if it just 1 or 2 little things my be a great help . down shifting when and where and how to use it to suit your enviroment is a great help also .

 

[user 213]

Next body english is very important . throttle momvement if you notice a rider and do not see there rear brake light go on for a while . it takes pratice . Read you can get alot of info even if it just 1 or 2 little things my be a great help . down shifting when and where and how to use it to suit your enviroment is a great help also .

Great points Zorkler. When you see a smooth rider that seldom uses the brakes except coming to a stop or to maintain his interval with the bike ahead, that rider is usually riding the Pace. You may not always be able to tell what he/she's doing though, so again, ride your ride and watch the environment. Just because they don't brake, doesn't mean you might not need to. You might ask them later what they were doing on that stretch of road though so you can better understand how they maintained control and what they did differently from you, and why.

 

[Rogue]

There are 3 pages here and I don't feel like reading them all........ So I'll just add my 2 cents.

#1 Ride your own ride, go no faster than you are comfortable that day!

#2 Practice! The more you ride twistys the better you get (hopefully) and the more you get comfortable.

#3 Watch and learn from the good riders your with.

#4 Read up (Keith Codes books are good, I'm sure others have posted other good books).

 

[HaulinAshe]

... if you notice a rider and do not see there rear brake light go on for a while . it takes pratice .

Sorry, but I just can't let this one pass.

I read/hear this "brake bashing" a lot, especially at group events. Using brakes is NOT necessarily a sign of a weak rider. Using brakes improperly is a sure way to get hurt. But any racer will tell you that a key to being as fast as possible is learning to kill off as much speed as possible, as late as possible.

You're going to see my brake lights all the time, and in almost every corner. If I'm pushing for performance, you will see the bike dive down and stay down through tight corners, because I'm trail braking the rear way past the apex.

I hate the stigma that gets attached to braking a street bike. If you are trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible (please note I did not say fast!), then you should either be on the throttle or on the brake. Any time spent in between is lost milliseconds and puts you behind.

What is required is entirely dependent upon the pace you want to set. Just don't assume that because one rider does not use brakes that they are a "better" rider than one that does. In my world, the stopwatch separates everyone without brake light prejudice.



But that's just a racer's point of view.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

 

[Rogue]

... if you notice a rider and do not see there rear brake light go on for a while . it takes pratice .

Sorry, but I just can't let this one pass.

I read/hear this "brake bashing" a lot, especially at group events. Using brakes is NOT necessarily a sign of a weak rider. Using brakes improperly is a sure way to get hurt. But any racer will tell you that a key to being as fast as possible is learning to kill off as much speed as possible, as late as possible.

You're going to see my brake lights all the time, and in almost every corner. If I'm pushing for performance, you will see the bike dive down and stay down through tight corners, because I'm trail braking the rear way past the apex.

I hate the stigma that gets attached to braking a street bike. If you are trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible (please note I did not say fast!), then you should either be on the throttle or on the brake. Any time spent in between is lost milliseconds and puts you behind.

What is required is entirely dependent upon the pace you want to set. Just don't assume that because one rider does not use brakes that they are a "better" rider than one that does. In my world, the stopwatch separates everyone without brake light prejudice.



But that's just a racer's point of view.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

GUNNY!

I like to not use the brake and practice "smooth" but I'm just cruising. A rider who is good and riding fast is 100% on the throttle then at the exact right spot 100% on the brakes. I'm not that good! :dribble:

 

[PlaynGuitar]

It's all about personal choice. The best advice I have to offer is to relax, decide what you want out of YOUR ride and pursue that, through education and experience.Jill

excellent advice Jill.... thanks very much.

 

[PlaynGuitar]

Jeff;

Thanks very much for taking the time to provide such a detailed and well-thought response. Seeing the respect afforded you & your riding skills from the lunch table on Saturday I regard your input highly.



But there are some good sense things I have in common with MSF and others....
There are some FJR-specific opinions I will also share...
the points shared within each of these two headings were very valuable and I appreciate the guidance.

fwiw, as regards E1Allen... agreed the man seems to have no fear. And, without a doubt I got the sense that he had the capability and cahones to own the mountain with little effort, but he also exhibited consummate control and grace (as did JimLor and FJR Gary). maybe the new baby on the way is mellowing him out? NAH, no way -- lost my head for a moment!!!

Thanks again, really appreciate the benefit of your experience.

Patrick

 

[PlaynGuitar]

[detour]

hey folks, excuse me for a quick chat with frayne...



Hey PlaynGuitar, nice Taylor, T-5 is it ?
right on target!! I've had a Taylor acoustic for about 10 years now and picked up the T5 the year they came out. it is an awesome guitar with one of the best necks I've ever played and just about perfectly fits the bill for an accessible, versatile instrument that will do anything that my regular acoustics can't. I've never regretted the purchase and have had to fend off both of my sons lobbying heavily and aggressively to relieve me of its ownership. I let the youngest one use the 20 year old Strat instead... the T5 stays home with pops.

in the last year my playing time has been cut dramatically, but it still brings me great pleasure whenever I can pull a guitar out for a stretch. Guitars and FJRs -- a simple prescription for keeping us sane!

do you play? what, when, all the questions.. always interested in hearing about someone's musical pursuits.

[/detour]

oh yeh, thanks for the response to my questions too.

regards

Patrick

 

[PlaynGuitar]

Folks;

I'm seeing that there is no way I can keep up with thanking each individual personally for taking the time to share their wisdom and experience. So, allow me to say that I sincerely appreciate the input I've received from each one of you. I've found this thread to be very helpful for me... yielding some great insight and advice that I'm sure will aid my learning. My Amazon order shipped yesterday so I'll have some additional reading for the weekend. I'm truly looking forward to taking the time to read, practice, reflect, and implement. It's awesome to be able to turn to this forum for some help and receive such an outpouring of great response.

At this point I'm going to step out of the way and if there is more to be said on the topic -- please feel free to continue to add your thoughts and comments.

Thanks very much!!

best regards

Patrick

 

[frayne]

[detour]hey folks, excuse me for a quick chat with frayne...



Hey PlaynGuitar, nice Taylor, T-5 is it ?
right on target!! I've had a Taylor acoustic for about 10 years now and picked up the T5 the year they came out. it is an awesome guitar with one of the best necks I've ever played and just about perfectly fits the bill for an accessible, versatile instrument that will do anything that my regular acoustics can't. I've never regretted the purchase and have had to fend off both of my sons lobbying heavily and aggressively to relieve me of its ownership. I let the youngest one use the 20 year old Strat instead... the T5 stays home with pops.

in the last year my playing time has been cut dramatically, but it still brings me great pleasure whenever I can pull a guitar out for a stretch. Guitars and FJRs -- a simple prescription for keeping us sane!

do you play? what, when, all the questions.. always interested in hearing about someone's musical pursuits.

[/detour]

oh yeh, thanks for the response to my questions too.

regards

Patrick

Yup, been playing for almost 40 years now. Too bad experince doesn't equal tatent when it comes to a musical instrument. Currently have an Taylor 814 CE and an American Strat. Have owned many throughout the years, Martins, Gibsons, Alvarezs, PRSs to name only a few. Use to play in a band way back when. Play now mostly for personal enjoyment and a few freinds and I get together and jam every now and then. Riding, golf and guitars are pretty much my main hobbies these days.

Are you a member of the AGF formally known as the Taylor Guitar Forum by chance ?

 

[Grumpy]

... if you notice a rider and do not see there rear brake light go on for a while . it takes pratice .

Sorry, but I just can't let this one pass.

I read/hear this "brake bashing" a lot, especially at group events. Using brakes is NOT necessarily a sign of a weak rider. Using brakes improperly is a sure way to get hurt. But any racer will tell you that a key to being as fast as possible is learning to kill off as much speed as possible, as late as possible.

You're going to see my brake lights all the time, and in almost every corner. If I'm pushing for performance, you will see the bike dive down and stay down through tight corners, because I'm trail braking the rear way past the apex.

I hate the stigma that gets attached to braking a street bike. If you are trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible (please note I did not say fast!), then you should either be on the throttle or on the brake. Any time spent in between is lost milliseconds and puts you behind.

What is required is entirely dependent upon the pace you want to set. Just don't assume that because one rider does not use brakes that they are a "better" rider than one that does. In my world, the stopwatch separates everyone without brake light prejudice.



But that's just a racer's point of view.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

Jeff, you beat me to it......going faster thru the twisties is all the things in this thread. However, the largest improvement comes with improved braking coupled with going from the neutral throttle position to rolling it on as soon as you see your way thru the corner. Lots of practice is also required.

I would additionally mention that in some sections of the mountains we have folks who always drop the right rear wheel of their car onto the gravel to help them get around the right hand turn. The result is always some gravel on the turn........usually not enough to put you down, but sometime there is enough and you have to look for it.

jim

 

[PlaynGuitar]

[detour2]

nothing to see here folks.. just keep moving.

frayne;

Too bad experince doesn't equal tatent when it comes to a musical instrument. Currently have an Taylor 814 CE and an American Strat... Play now mostly for personal enjoyment and a few freinds and I get together and jam every now and then....Are you a member of the AGF formally known as the Taylor Guitar Forum by chance ?

no, I'm not a member of that forum -- is it worthwhile?

The 814 is a great guitar! Taylors in general are real workhorses, great necks, terrific thru a system, no over-balanced bass response like some Martins, and an instrument you can rely on for home or stage. I've got a 912c with a Fishman matrix which has served me very well for the 10 years I've had it. I also own a Huss & Dalton MJC because a couple of years back I played in an Irish trad band and needed one guitar for standard & drop D and the other for DADGAD. The T5 (and a POD XTLive) was a present to myself to start experimenting with electric again. But, I ended up leaving the band and haven't jumped into anything else yet. So, that puts me in the same boat as you -- playing for personal enjoyment now. And honestly, nothing wrong with that at all.

cheers!

[/detour2]

 

[HaulinAshe]

...fwiw, as regards E1Allen... agreed the man seems to have no fear. And, without a doubt I got the sense that he had the capability and cahones to own the mountain with little effort, but he also exhibited consummate control and grace (as did JimLor and FJR Gary). maybe the new baby on the way is mellowing him out? NAH, no way -- lost my head for a moment!!!

I should definitely clarify how much I enjoy riding with E1Allen. Like you said, he definitely exhibits control AND a big pair!



I'm sure he'll be the first to rib me with "The older you get, the faster you used to be." So I have to rattle his cage every once in a while.

 

[PlaynGuitar]

I'm sure he'll be the first to rib me with "The older you get, the faster you used to be." So I have to rattle his cage every once in a while.

ABSOLUTELY!! B)

 

[exskibum]

Looks like it's turned into a guitar thread, so . . .

[continue hijack]I love Taylors and have admired that avatar for a while. My favorite guitar is a '98 814ce -- bought it new just before the new neck technology, and I see that with the popularity of the 3 and 4 series, the 814 has gotten considerably more expensive in terms of street price than it was then. Sold the Lone Star American strat last October after unloading 3 other electric guitars over the last couple years. 2 USA Hamers, a Ric (a '93 minty '64 reissue 360 12), a 1974 Guild F412 and more still here with 2 amps that need work. BTW, that H&D is one nice guitar, too!

Too bad that you can't really pack a guitar on the FJR or for backpacking. And if you've ever played that tinny, headstock heavy, ukelele sounding Martin Backpacker, you know to just pack a couple harps if you're going to bring an instrument along.

Oh yeah: playing since 1964 and I still suck (well said about experience not necessarily equalling talent, frayne). No band in 6 or 7 years for me and seldom play with anyone anymore -- playing and howling song lyrics by myself for my own amusement anymore. Anyone need a Mackie 1604VLZ, a QSC amp or an ADAT?? Could use the money for more farkles, tools or tires. [/continued hijack]

 

[PlaynGuitar]

Looks like it's turned into a guitar thread, so . . .

exskibum

mercy!! I reckon I was doomed to this inevitability! B)

The prices of Taylors did do a serious jump at one point. I could never afford my 912 now, glad I picked it up when I did. With that said -- I thought the T5 prices were pretty reasonable considering where the rest of the line was and the great versatility of the instrument. Tho, to me, it's not a substitute for a true acoustic, it does kick butt as an electric.

You unloaded some mighty fine pieces of work.. I would love to have had the 360 12... nothing like the jangly sound of those guitars. But what a pain in the arse to change strings on those puppies. Worth it nonetheless.

I've heard and played the Backpacker -- I agree with you completely. I've got a first generation Baby Taylor but it doesn't stay in tune well and doesn't sound much better than the backpacker. There was a very nice gentleman horse farmer on this forum last year who said he was able to manage strapping his Martin to his FJR. But, I'd sure be reticent trying such things.

In any case, enjoyed the chat... good luck selling the rest of your gear. I'm at that stage now -- trying to decide whether to hold onto stuff I haven't used for awhile or keeping it because it may come into use in the future or maybe one of my kids will use it. getting old is not for sissies.

best regards