The Tao of Controlled Fast

[PlaynGuitar]

hey folks;

If I may, I'd like to submit a serious request for advice... after reading thru the following -- flame and kick at me all you want but then please add your thoughts that I might attain your level of wisdom and practice.

Yesteray I joined JimLor, FJR Gary, and E1Allen for JimLor's test ride of the 2-Up EOM run he's planning. It was a beautiful, perfect day for being out on a bike and overall I had a great time with these fine forum folks on some awesome roads. The ride to our meeting / starting point was uneventful, but once we kicked into the route itself things got a bit dicey for me.

The mountain roads in and around Lewisburg are gorgeous -- snaking thru little towns, verdant farmland, sedate rivers, and up, thru, & down winding mountain passes. With a series of opposing left and right turns, heading up, sometimes heading down, occasional gravel in the roads, and blind turns I quickly discovered that my riding companions were simply better, faster, more educated and skilled at riding these conditions than I am. At times these cats were cranking and I was trailing by long distances.... close enough to see where they were going, but far enough to not be considered part of the same pack. After a short time I honestly felt like I may have been over my head & was definitely holding them back... that, in concert with this overwhelming desire to click the ruby slippers 3 times and chant "there's no place like home".

I'd say I did OK about 85% of the time, albeit at a much slower pace than they did. But, that 15% has really bothered me since the ride. I found that I was talking out loud to myself thru the turns repeating the basics -- look thru the turn, push left go left, push right go right. lean into the turn, even throttle, control, control. But at least 3 times during the ride I found myself wider to the right of the lane than was safe or correct. Two times the presence of gravel in the turn disturbed my concentration, I went higher and dlower in the lane and the bike came up rather than lean. One time my head and hands did a brain fart on the balance betweem braking and accelerating. At our lunch stop I decided that I had to ride within my comfort zone which in reality meant that the distances between myself and my friends became even greater. When our route came near an intersection for a major highway - I threw a quick salute to E1Allen and headed in the opposite direction for home. Beleve me, not my most stellar moment.

In each of the three times I did mess up -- I knew it immediately and I was extremely fortunate there was no oncoming traffic. If there was you'd be taking up a collection for me in the ICU or sending flowers to my wife. And, believe me, she'd be really, really pissed if that were the situation. The fact is, I concentrated very hard at the beginnng but found my concentration and confidence flagging farther into the ride. In some cases I was intimidated by the roads. I don't know if you can understand this -- but I hate that feeling, truly hate it. I was challenged and I do like that. But, I don't like not having the chops to meet the challenge.

All that to bring us to heart of this post and my real question. Can you describe to me in a clear way how you approach these kinds of roads. What is your technique? What is happening with braking and accelerating? Where are you at in the gear range? I know -- look thru the turn -- I was doing look thru the turn. I know lean, I was trying to lean. But, what about the mechanics of riding it? What are your hands and feet doing? Yeh, I know I need to get my butt to some schooling and learn in a controlled environment but I have no idea when I can do that... too many kids and grandkids means little disposable income. I'd like some practical advice for now. I want to get a clear mental picture so I can practice. Hell, I'll shoot the mountain over 211 in the Shenandoahs all next weekend to practice. But I don't want to let this get the better of me, I want to learn it right, and I want to not be intimidated by the conditions.

While at lunch Jim recommended I read the book: Sport Riding Techniques: How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, & Confidence by Nick Ienatsch. What have you found to be helpful?

(background info its helpful to know)... I'm not one of those folks that grew up riding from the time I was a kid, it just wasn't part of my family experience. So, good or bad -- I am one of those people that took up riding later in life and dug in deep because it is the most rewarding window to open on life and this world we live in. Its also a hell of a lot better than Prozac!! I started with cruisers (my wife informed me yesteray) about 7 years ago. And I made the move to the sport touring world for the same reasons most people do. I have not taken any advanced riding courses and I have not read any advanced riding technique books.

We've had a lot of folks go down this year. There were times yesterday I wondered if it was gonna be my day. I can't ride that way. So, I'm presented with the reality that I need to learn a set of skills that must be learned in order to enjoy this sport safely. And then I need to practice, practice, practice until they become ingrained. Any thoughts appreciated...

Patrick

 

[squeezer]

Well, I guess responses should start by noting that you actually made the best possible decision a rider can make when you decided to ride within your own limits rather than push over them to keep up.

The Ienatsch book is on my reading list. A couple of days ago someone posted this link for Sport Rider's riding tip series.

Reading about and practicing techniques is the the only way to get there. The mind set you need going in, though, is that it's a process. You get a little bit better each year. Don't jump for it all at once, and ride at a pace that's comfortable for you. It can be plenty fun/thrilling riding your pace instead of someone else's. And that's nothing to feel bad about.

 

[extrememarine]

just my .02;

#1 most important rule for me when riding in the mountains: ride MY ride.

It is so hard to hold back and stay within your comfort zone when you ride with a group. It's very easy to be sucked into someone else's pace. When you ride as a group, the group accepts that everyone in the group may not be able to run at the same pace. You just wait at the intersections to make sure that the trailing bike makes the turn.

My first ride in the mountains with the FJR was a very, very humbling experience. But it gave me confidence in the bike. Seeing what some else could do with this bike was amazing.

As far as increasing your pace or comfort level in the twisties, IMHO, I think that is no substitution for experience. The more you ride those types of roads, the more comfortable you will get. You have to decide at the beginning; 1.) are you sight seeing = slower pace, or 2.) are you going to run the pace = focus on the road. Once I make that decision, then I stick to it. If I'm going to push, I run through it in my head as I do it. move to the outside, smoothly off the throuttle, shift my wieght, ease on the brakes, ease off the brakes, roll on the gas smoothly, look through the turn... Everything is smooth.

You just have to get out there and do it. Be smooth and controlled, and your pace will increase with time.

wr

 

[PlaynGuitar]

A couple of days ago someone posted this link for Sport Rider's riding tip series.
Reading about and practicing techniques is the the only way to get there. The mind set you need going in, though, is that it's a process. You get a little bit better each year. Don't jump for it all at once, and ride at a pace that's comfortable for you. It can be plenty fun/thrilling riding your pace instead of someone else's. And that's nothing to feel bad about.

Thanks Squeezer... I read thru a couple of the aticles in the link. Looks lke good stuff -- they seem to be concise, clear, and practical. I apreciate the pointer and the encouragement to get out there and practice at the right pace. Very helpful.

 

[FJRottie]

ride MY ride

+1

Everyone has different abilities and experience. Nothing to be ashamed of. You had the balls that day to man up.

You already mentioned what you need to do. Read, practice, etc.

All the techniques required are in books;

Sport Riding Techniques - Nick Ienatsch

Total Control - Lee Parks

There are others, but I think those are the best two..and don't forget Practice, Practice, Practice.

 

[PlaynGuitar]

My first ride in the mountains with the FJR was a very, very humbling experience. But it gave me confidence in the bike. Seeing what some else could do with this bike was amazing.....If I'm going to push, I run through it in my head as I do it. move to the outside, smoothly off the throuttle, shift my wieght, ease on the brakes, ease off the brakes, roll on the gas smoothly, look through the turn... Everything is smooth.
You just have to get out there and do it. Be smooth and controlled, and your pace will increase with time.

wr

Thanks very much extrememarine... you're absolutely on target. I did ride away from the experience realizing how well the bikes could be ridden. Seeing someone else do it well does increase your confidence in the machine and plant the notion that I can get there too. Appreciate the advice and the encouragement. I've decided I need to take some time this next weekend working on these skills. Shenandoah is close enough to make that a practical practice ground.

ride MY ride

You already mentioned what you need to do. Read, practice, etc.

All the techniques required are in books;

Sport Riding Techniques - Nick Ienatsch

Total Control - Lee Parks

There are others, but I think those are the best two..and don't forget Practice, Practice, Practice.

Thanks FJRottie... I'm feeling better about a focused approach at integrating these skills into my riding.

amen on the practice, practice, practice....

and thanks for the reading tips.

 

[JimLor]

Patrick - First off my aplogies for putting you in a position where you felt unsafe. I kept looking back and you were always there, a little farther back, but always there! And I trumpet squeezer's comment that you (we all) need to ride our own ride statement. I did the same on the way back from Peaks of Otter - Gary and Eric were froggy and I rode behind the old guy and his wife on the Harley (with the trailer) for a while!

I didn't start riding until 25 months ago and had only ridden bike's twice in the 52 years before that (went off the road in a turn within the first 5 minutes the first time!), so I know what it's like to start riding. I took the MSF course, read David Hough's book as well as Lee Park's Total Control; Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II, and Nick I's Sport Riding Techniques. I also too Lee Parks Total Control class with 3dogs. Usually as part of my rides, sometimes first thing and sometimes the last thing, I head off to the local school parking lot for some slow speed, breaking, and cornering practice.

I'm not a certified riding instructor, but I do love talking about it and riding. I would be honored to ride with you and discuss/practice the stuff I've learned over the past 2 years or to just shoot the breeze about riding. Great riding out your way and I'm out there all the time!

 

[Fencer]

Well, I guess responses should start by noting that you actually made the best possible decision a rider can make when you decided to ride within your own limits rather than push over them to keep up.

A big +1!

I would consider myself a fair rider. not bad, not great, but fair. I have ridden with (I think) some of the best on this board And while I may keep up, its only because they are not pushing THEIR limits ( or maybe not pushing at all) or to re-phrase they are allowing me to keep them in sight. Last year At EOM I picked up a lot from the riders there and came away a diff rider than when arrived. I also learned to have confidence in my bike and myself.

I have also found the mindset for a particular ride has to be there as well (and may change during the ride). If you go out planning to drag a knee, you will be riding at a harder pace than if you leave the house just looking to go for a relaxing ride to clear the head. And the mindset may change from one to the other during the ride.

I know I enjoy pushing myself, but if I happen along a nice overlook, stop for a momment. you don't have to run 90 ALL DAY (cough Fossilrider cough)

 

[PlaynGuitar]

Patrick - First off my aplogies for putting you in a position where you felt unsafe. I kept looking back and you were always there, a little farther back, but always there!
I'm not a certified riding instructor, but I do love talking about it and riding. I would be honored to ride with you and discuss/practice the stuff I've learned over the past 2 years or to just shoot the breeze about riding. Great riding out your way and I'm out there all the time!

Jim;

Thanks very much for your encouraging reply. I tried to write the explanation above without implying that any part of my discomfort was caused by anyone else. And it wasn't. You led very well and I never felt like you were gunning to leave me in the dust. Further, and more importantly, in the couple of times I've ridden with you I never felt like you were riding to race with the big guns. My comments about feeling unsafe were the turning point in my thinking during the rie. The wake up call so to speak. I was pushed and challenged and that -- I think -- is a very good thing. Its obvious that running around the roads where I live and commuting to/from work has not pushed me at all. I came out of the experience determined to face the need to become better at it. You did nothing wrong and a lot of stuff right. Same with Gary and Eric. You folks were great to ride with and I never felt like there was anything but enjoyment of the ride at the heart of the run.

I posted the question because I find that riders will often talk about the philosophical side of these kinds of runs but rarely break it down into the mechanics. In order for me to gain proficiency and comfort -- I need to understand the mechanics. I need to be visualize them in my head in order to ingrain them in my habits.

Lastly, as stated before -- you definitely have better skills than I do and I could easily benefit from your experience and patient communication. I'd welcome the opportunity to work thru these skills in a practical way. Thanks very much for the offer.

regards

Patrick

 

[kaitsdad]

Well, I guess responses should start by noting that you actually made the best possible decision a rider can make when you decided to ride within your own limits rather than push over them to keep up.

Patrick,

First, WHAT SQUEEZER SAID !!! Good Stuff ! Ride your own ride.

You recognized your limitations, and you rode within your capabilities - most of the time. What's important is that you recognized when you were outside of your envelope - and corrected.

I'm at about 16.5 K in 14 months or so - after a 30 year break between bikes. And I gotta tell ya, I've been on rides with the big dogs where they spent a lot more time waiting for me than I spent waiting for them.

IMHO - the only way to get better is to ride. Practice. READ BOOKS - and then pick them up again and start over.

Learning is a continual process.

Read,

Understand,

Apply,

REALLY understand.

And do it again.

I don't think there's anyone on this forum that would give you crap for being slower or safer. Advice? yes, I'm sure you'll get that - I welcome it. I've found out that when someone with 40 or 50 years of riding experience takes the time to tell me how they do something - it's a nugget of gold in my information bank.

Don't feel less because of your limited riding abilities at this time - I applaud the fact that you're out there riding. That's huge. There will come a time when you can help out a newbie, and pass it along.

Be Safe !

 

[Bearly Flying]

You have probably taken a MAJOR step in your Learning, Realizing you were not comfortable riding at that pace and backing off. That was the SMARTEST thing you can do.

Don't worry about lagging behind, As JimLor indicated, He was keeping an eye on you, and if you fell seriously behind, they probably would have pulled over or slowed down a notch.

Sounds like your well on your way in learning to be a good rider. Congrats.

 

[PlaynGuitar]

Thanks FJRFencer...

I appreciate your comments about the EOM experience making you a better rider. I'll take that to heart and hope to gain the same growth from my interaction with the people on this forum. The encouragement from people in this community has been great. Best regards

and Kaitsdad...

Learning is a continual process.

Read,

Understand,

Apply,

REALLY understand.

And do it again.

This is excellent advice.... thanks very much!!

 

[Kevin Daly]

Your best thought of the day...

I decided that I had to ride within my comfort zone

In the less dangeruous world of mountian biking many of my friends learned the hard way trying to keep up with me and by racing buddies; typically we ended up walking to the car and spending the day in the ER with a broke rist or finger.

The bottom line is that if you ride someone elses pace and it is over your head it is ony a matter of time.

The good news is that most people whe do solo sports in groups are used to stoping at the end of a section and waiting for the last in line; no worries! ANd no shame!

I dont know if you ever ski'd or mountian biked or even hiked but if so you'll know what i mean.

As for training, if you have to ask the questions you asked then you are seriously in over your head! GET BOOKS!! learn from them. I would not ride the twisties with others and try to learn from them. The statistics dont lie; this will increase your chances of getting hurt! In David Hough's book "Proficient Motorcycling" he identifies risk factors as established by the Hurt report (a famous report about risk factors associated with motorcycling) "Taught [to ride] by friends/family" increases your risk factor to 1.56 (anything over 1 is bad for your health).

Practicing manuvers in a parking lot with others is ok IMO so long as you are certian that the other person is reading what your reading and ernest about practicing.

The books mentioned are all good books and there was reciently a good book review put together by John T Click here a nice list of books that people have read and recomend

-k

PS if your ever in WV there is a good bunch of guys that like to ride and we all go our own pace.

 

[Hit the Road Jack]

I'm in agreement with the rest. It takes a better man to ride at his own comfort level and arrive 60 seconds later, than to find yourself launching thru the trees or in a ditch!

One rule I try to abide by is to:

Never enter a curve in which your braking distance exceeds your visible line of sight.

If your view detects gravel, or you can't see the logging truck crossing into your lane around the next curve, then your braking distance increases.

In my younger days, my pals and I used to ride our Suzuki GS's from Florida to the N. Ga mountains to camp and ride. We would immediately get into a 5 day long road race about the time we hit the foot hills. One time I overcooked a curve and had to get on the pegs and 'motocross berm shot' off the cliff on the outside of the curve. Didn't crash there, but definitly learned to slow down and live! Later on that same trip, I crashed in the rain on a freeway offramp in Gainesville, FL, riding solo. Too easy!

So another rule might be:

Always be prepared to crash (wear the right protective gear).

Stay safe and enjoy your ride!

 

[PlaynGuitar]

The books mentioned are all good books and there was reciently a good book review put together by John T Click here a nice list of books that people have read and recomend
-k

PS if your ever in WV there is a good bunch of guys that like to ride and we all go our own pace.

Kevin;

great observations and solid advice. I appreciate the pointer back to the book list. This is excellent.

Thanks very much

Patrick

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hit the road Jack

This is very helpful, practical advice:

One rule I try to abide by is to:

Never enter a curve in which your braking distance exceeds your visble line of sight.

very much appreciated.

Patrick

 

[user 213]

PlaynGuitar - First off, you did great by accepting that your skill level wasn't up to keeping up and riding in your comfort level. ANY amout of verbal abuse is better than going down.

Books are great, there is a lot to be learned and then applied from them. However, sometimes it's very helpful to have an instructor watching and pointing out things to you while you are attempting to apply new knowledge.

You say you took the MSF course. Great, but remember that the MSF offers additional courses too. Intermediate, and Advanced. The advanced course, (ART), at least around here, is done on a carting track and really works at the cornering skills that teach you a lot more about how far you can lean your bike over and still maintain control. Look into what's offered in your neck of the woods and see if a class looks good to you. Way cheaper than buying new parts for the bike or medical bills.

Related, but on a different tack, there is hooning and there is The Pace. Both can be fast, but The Pace is more about smooth than hammering out of every corner, then slowing for the next one. The Pace is more condusive to street riding, IMHO. The Pace Have a read and think about the ideas presented there.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Always be prepared to crash (wear the right protective gear).

Amen!

The Pace Have a read and think about the ideas presented there.

A good start, starts with good mentality!

 

[wrightman]

Hi Patrick: I agree with the other riders to ride within your limits, if in a group, make sure everyone knows the destination, so you can eventually meet up. There is a place called a race track for high speed riding and really that is the place to take lessons.. One point though is that there are many sport bike riders that give motorcycling a bad name by rat racing, passing on the right, double lines and curves and scaring the cage drivers, who in tern may be the people who will change the laws that could affect us riders........Woops..... kinda got off the beam there didn't I..anyway ride safe.

 

[wpbfjr]

...with this overwhelming desire to click the ruby slippers 3 times and chant "there's no place like home".
....I found that I was talking out loud to myself thru the turns repeating the basics -- look thru the turn, push left go left, push right go right. lean into the turn, even throttle, control, control. But at least 3 times during the ride I found myself wider to the right of the lane than was safe or correct. Two times the presence of gravel in the turn disturbed my concentration, I went higher and dlower in the lane and the bike came up rather than lean. One time my head and hands did a brain fart on the balance betweem braking and accelerating.

Patrick

100% my experience, word for freeking word!!!

and as the rest of our famlily has said, you rode your own ride, right on!!!

i guarentee you i'll be talking and thinking my way thru eom, but it will be 'my own ride'...

glad i'm not alone...

thanks for posting...

dana