Those MOTHER...

[radman]

Here is a disassembled Fram, with the notorious cardboard end cap clearly visible-

If you look carefully, you can see what appears to be a thin cardboard cap on the end of the filter-slotted like the media, but thinner and clearly different than the media in appearance-there's that word again...

 

[raclow]

I have learned more about oil filters, from this thread, than I thought I would ever want to know.

Thank you to all of the knowledgeable individuals that have contributed to this education.

Another reason why this is such a good forum.

And to think what started it all was a "RANT". OTRFJR, sorry you had to go through what you did with your dealership. But look at the positive side, your bike will be fixed and we have been enlightened. We still don't know what the REAL cause was for the failure and your dealership may never tell you. Maybe it is time to move on to someone else. But before doing that, ask some qualifying questions of the prospect dealer about how they feel about the things you like to do with your bike regarding maintenance and such.

I will be asking some of those questions of my current dealer to see where they stand before I run into a problem and have to find out the way you did. We all should do some of this questioning.

 

[cctxfjr]

I have learned more about oil filters, from this thread, than I thought I would ever want to know.

Thank you to all of the knowledgeable individuals that have contributed to this education.

Another reason why this is such a good forum.

And to think what started it all was a "RANT". OTRFJR, sorry you had to go through what you did with your dealership. But look at the positive side, your bike will be fixed and we have been enlightened. We still don't know what the REAL cause was for the failure and your dealership may never tell you. Maybe it is time to move on to someone else. But before doing that, ask some qualifying questions of the prospect dealer about how they feel about the things you like to do with your bike regarding maintenance and such.

I will be asking some of those questions of my current dealer to see where they stand before I run into a problem and have to find out the way you did. We all should do some of this questioning.

[/quote +1 on that--thanks to all for info-Rad and Jestal for expertise and taking your personal time to enlighten us on this subject---OTRFJR thanks for sharing your dealer experience I believe this posting will enable us all to make more educated decisions servicing our bikes. This is best equipment forum I belong and I belong to several from light duty and RV to heavy duty earth moving and trucking

 

[otrfjr]

I would like to say that I am glad to be of service, just wish it had been under other conditions This has been a very insightful thread. Thanks everyone. Now, if you can help me diagnose what's really happening with my clutch...

Edit:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,

And by opposing end them?

 

[radman]

Whats wrong with it is that the fibers are gone. Only a few things can cause this-

1) slippage due to insufficient clamping applied by the pressure plate and springs,

2) a slave cylinder preventing full release,

3) a master applying pressure, however lightly, to the slave,

4) improper lubricant (as in car oil with it's friction modifiers)

5) rider abuse or

6) heavy slippage due to duty cycle (as in all the miles being accumulated in heavy traffic)

I would suspect a problem within the hydraulics, especially the slave cylinder, not releasing fully. IIRC, this has occurred on at least one other Feej documented here somewhere. Until the job is done and some miles put on to verify the repair is indeed successful, kinda hard to speculate beyond that. But I still lean towards a hydraulic issue, which new fibers and steels won't fix, only temporarily alleviate.

 

[otrfjr]

Whats wrong with it is that the fibers are gone. Only a few things can cause this-1) slippage due to insufficient clamping applied by the pressure plate and springs,

2) a slave cylinder preventing full release,

3) a master applying pressure, however lightly, to the slave,

4) improper lubricant (as in car oil with it's friction modifiers)

5) rider abuse or

6) heavy slippage due to duty cycle (as in all the miles being accumulated in heavy traffic)

I would suspect a problem within the hydraulics, especially the slave cylinder, not releasing fully. IIRC, this has occurred on at least one other Feej documented here somewhere. Until the job is done and some miles put on to verify the repair is indeed successful, kinda hard to speculate beyond that. But I still lean towards a hydraulic issue, which new fibers and steels won't fix, only temporarily alleviate.

In the other case, the dealer soaked the clutch plates, tried it, still didn't have perfect results, then rebuilt the slave cylinder. After that the clutch was fine: Post #19 of this thread

Wouldn't I feel the slippage in #1 #3 & #4 and notice it in the rpms if not in my mpg?

 

[radman]

Wouldn't I feel the slippage in #1 #3 & #4 and notice it in the rpms if not in my mpg?

Not necessarily. Rpm's yes, especially if full throttle is applied at or near the torque peak, in 5th gear, which would be max loading on the clutch-and where slippage is most often first noticed when symptoms start. But, the clutch is always slipping, just a tiny, tiny bit, just like when under way, the rear tire is always turning just a tiny bit faster than the bike is moving. Increase it only a bit, and rate of wear can double or triple without any obvious symptoms-until the clutch begins to display real signs of wear. The tach just isn't that accurate to show an increase of 50 rpm at 4000 , nor would you notice. You reported signs of a refusal to disengage, which means one of two things-the actuator (slave cyl) isn't releasing pressure plate spring tension enough, the clutch has overheated, causing expansion of the discs beyond that which the system is designed to allow for (lever travel and engagement range) , or warping due to heat, of both the plates and the pressure plate, causing high spots that are still in contact when the clutch should be disengaged. Are you one of those who sits at a light forever, in first gear, holding the clutch in? This also can cause glazing, worsening the slippage, and on and on-see where this heads? Once a problem starts, it can snowball beyond the original cause to the point where it can be difficult to diagnose the original problem. Thats one of the reasons jestal and I know Super Service Puke is talking out his ***. There is no off the cuff simple answer until a thorough dissection is done-and at that point it's irrelevant, because regardless of the cause, all the components are trashed anyway. But I have no doubt the failure has been with the bike all along-only now are the results of that failure showing themselves. Once again-and I may be wrong-but I would suspect the hydraulics before anything in the clutch proper-which only paid the price for the problem.

 

[Scab]

I still say it would be worth the price of admission to witness the conversation between Rad and this Service dude. Better yet, a nice interogation room with a single 60-watt light bulb hanging from a half-frayed wire, a single hard-back wooden chair, a WWII surplus steel table (strewn with diagrams from Jestal and pictures from Rad), and Rad and Jestal pacing the floor to and fro, one holding vice-grips and the other obsessively shaking a can of WD40, but neither giving any indication of intention, all while playing good mechanic/bad mechanic.

And the sound proof wall coatings absorb the cries..."I shoud have just stayed a fry-cook. I was a good fry-cook."

 

[jestal]

Re the Yam OEM filter: It looks like the filter media is not the folded paper sort that totally relies on the "end cap" or "piece on the end" to hold the whole thing together. Isn't the filter media bunched togehter at the center so that the metal cap holds the core from collapsing and the media doesn't rely on the paper piece to hold it all together? Can you possibly cut the media stack down the middle on the bandsaw for a look see inside?

The folded/pleated filter media on the (notorious) Fram has the end of the pleats simply glued to the 'paper end cap" relying solely on that to hold it together. Really.....it wasn't such a bad idea and not a bad filter necessarily. Cheap and easy to manufacture. The "paper" end cap is capable of working fine as all it really needs to do is seal the end of the pleats together. The pleats alone have plenty of structure to withstand the pressure and oil flow. I think they just ran into quality problems with the material of the end cap....i.e....someone made a "cheap" design even "cheaper" and ruined the whole idea in the process. That and the quality control of the media-to-paper end cap glue joint was not what it should have been. Some reports within the industry also mentioned solvent attack of the paper-end-cap-glue-joint due to contaminants in oil that were unexpected. I also do not think they adequately "hardened" the paper end cap material to moisture. You really do not expect that much water in the oil but in extreme house wife/stop and go short trip winter driving the oil can get enough water to saturate the filter with water causing the filter media, much less the paper end cap, to decompose. All-in-all not a bad design or idea but relatively poor execution thus dooming all "paper end cap" designs to be considered inferior.

Wondered still if there was a chance to measure the hole sizes in the Purolator, yammi OEM and Pure1 mounting plate to get an idea of the relative inlet oil inlet area between the different filters.

 

[FJRay]

All this brings up another question in my mind. If the fiber platse have gone to ****, Where is all that material. It would seem that the filter reguardless of brand would grab as much as possible and then bypass. Where would the rest of the crap end up?? If it lodged in a small passage it seems that it could cause bad things to happen later and the one time fix from Yamaha would mean no further warranty repair even though related to the bad clutch. Just a thought. I once had a Frantz toilet paper filter come apart in a GMC V-6 and pieces lodged in a cam bearing and siezed the bearing in the block and cost me a rebuild. Toilet paper is only good for one thing but I still wonder where the rest of the clutch is.

 

[otrfjr]

All this brings up another question in my mind. If the fiber platse have gone to ****, Where is all that material. It would seem that the filter reguardless of brand would grab as much as possible and then bypass. Where would the rest of the crap end up?? If it lodged in a small passage it seems that it could cause bad things to happen later and the one time fix from Yamaha would mean no further warranty repair even though related to the bad clutch. Just a thought. I once had a Frantz toilet paper filter come apart in a GMC V-6 and pieces lodged in a cam bearing and siezed the bearing in the block and cost me a rebuild. Toilet paper is only good for one thing but I still wonder where the rest of the clutch is.

They did find that crap as gunk & chunks & said that it was the result of using a non-OEM oil. I suggested, well, couldn't in fact be the material that came off the plates? "Possibly," They were savvy enough to do a flush. Or savvy enough to tell me they did a flush. Either way, I'm going to do a series of oil changes after I get it back in case they missed anything & on the off chance I can get it to come out through the drain plug. Not much hope of being completely sure about ports & channels.

 

[radman]

Wondered still if there was a chance to measure the hole sizes in the Purolator, yammi OEM and Pure1 mounting plate to get an idea of the relative inlet oil inlet area between the different filters.

Yeah, the Yammi (Denso) design is different, and I agree-the paper end isn't like what a pleated filter needs an end cap for. next time I pull the Pure 1 off, I'll mike the inlet holes. Someone else will have to do the Yammi-if I show up with a caliper at the dealer parts counter, ask for a filter, and start measuring up, there'll be trouble, sure as ****. Almost makes me wanna try it.

 

[otrfjr]

Wouldn't I feel the slippage in #1 #3 & #4 and notice it in the rpms if not in my mpg?

Are you one of those who sits at a light forever, in first gear, holding the clutch in?

Nope: neutral w/clutch released.

[someone else will have to do the Yammi-if I show up with a caliper at the dealer parts counter, ask for a filter, and start measuring up, there'll be trouble, sure as ****. Almost makes me wanna try it.

Can I watch if you try it?

 

[radman]

Nope: neutral w/clutch released.

Well, thats good. Some advocate this as a safety op-I don't know where one is gonna go if this becomes the only option-the guy in front of me isn't moving...

Can I watch if you try it?

Better yet, bring a video camera. If we're gonna get 'em goin, lets really light 'em up. And lets do it at the dealer your bike is currently at. If Jestal could be there, all of us wearing lab coats with pocket protectors, it could be a YouTube Classic...

 

[Bounce]

Better yet, a nice interogation room with a single 60-watt light bulb hanging from a half-frayed wire, a single hard-back wooden chair, a WWII surplus steel table (strewn with diagrams from Jestal and pictures from Rad), and Rad and Jestal pacing the floor to and fro, one holding vice-grips and the other obsessively shaking a can of WD40, but neither giving any indication of intention, all while playing good mechanic/bad mechanic.

you are Robert Stack, as Elliot Ness, and I claim by 5 Desilu productions.

 

[cctxfjr]

ordered filters, fluids, scorpion face shield, and vstream windshield from Mike at U/M today his prices are so good I dont see a need to buy elsewhere-my first experience with them. He was quite a lot cheaper on the after market parts (windshield and face shield) than the after market discount houses. His price on oem filters and fluids is on par with after market prices on non oem and he is real easy to deal with. A good solution to my warranty and I dont want to deal with or buy anything from my local dealer concerns.

 

[otrfjr]

Round 14: deep in the championship rounds. Yes, I've taken some shots, but there's something left in the tank & a right that was/is able to put down opponents two weight classes above me.

Errrr, ummmm, yeeaaahhh, weeellllllll, spoke to my "customer service representative" today who, not completely unlike Roberto Gonzalez, mentioned "one-time good will offer" about seventy times in coming to her point: Cypress will cover the $200 parts, I have to ante up the $500 labor.

Now, if I were not a reasonable man, I would do something rash. But being as that option isn't open to me, I plan to pursue a path less noticeable. And, I really, really dig my bike, so I want to get it back, especially since my new GPS unit arrived today. And it's my bike, not a generic FJR: sliders, grip puppies, throttlemeister, pillion peg lowering kit, the loving service & washing & waxing & riding that I've done make it mine. So this will be my last post in this thread. Being a stupid romantic, I believe justice must be served. And I invoke you, the members of this forum, as my witnesses that this travesty will not go unnoticed nor ignored.

The plates/slave/any combination of the two were ****** up to begin with & Yamaha is covering up a service bulletin/recall that will cost them more than $200.

Peace out, players.

 

[Windjammer]

Errrr, ummmm, yeeaaahhh, weeellllllll, spoke to my "customer service representative" today who, not completely unlike Roberto Gonzalez, mentioned "one-time good will offer" about seventy times in coming to her point: Cypress will cover the $200 parts, I have to ante up the $500 labor.

Reason number 10,372 why I will NEVER darken the doorway of a motorcycle dealership after buying the bike, barring the complete disintegration of the engine. $500 for some half-time hack to put in a ******* clutch? And just reading the ignorant platitudes put forth by your service organization gives me nightmares from the past. I get enough of that ******** at work, fer chrissakes.

Dude, you have my complete sympathy. I've been there - and I ain't ever goin back.

Also, thumbs down to Yamaha customer service for sticking it up your *** on the labor. Maybe they've forgotten they have competitors. I love my FJR, but if I ever had any brand loyalty to Yamaha (which I don't) - I certainly would lose it after reading this. LAME! :angry:

 

[raclow]

We, on this forum, represent just one Model of bike Yamaha makes. If Yamaha is doing this refusal on the FJR, what do you think is happening with other models they make?? And it is the reasons they are coming up with that is so wrong. You can bet they are pulling the same crap with other people that own different models made by them.

[SIZE=18pt]BAD[/SIZE] move on Yamaha's part to have this exposed to the world. Somebody needs to lose their job over this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scab]

[SIZE=18pt]BAD[/SIZE] move on Yamaha's part to have this exposed to the world. Somebody needs their *** WHIPPED over this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fixed it for ya.

Just a question: Was there an "Arbitration Agreement" with this bike purchase? I know here, no motor vehicle dealer will even sell you a vehicle unless you sign and arbitration agreement.