Those MOTHER...

[jestal]

Where is our resident Oil Filter Guru?? We need to know if there is so much difference between the Purolator filter and the Yamaha filter to justify having to use their high priced $13.00 filter.

I have no idea if the Purolator filter is equivalent to the Yamaha filter..... I use the OEM Yamaha oil filter because I know it works and I really don't want to bother trying to replace something that works...LOL....too many other things to re-engineer to be bothered with the oil filter. The OEM filters are really not that expensive when you order them in advance from University Motors in bulk. And the price becomes really reasonable when you can avoid an arguement like this.

There are a number of factors involved with the design and validation of an oil filter. Just because it looks the same and screws on does not necessarily mean it is the same or equivalent. Not saying that it won't work OK but just that there needs to be some specific testing done that is outside the scope of riding around the block to prove that it is adequate replacement. And no, you cannot just "tell by looking" whether the filter is OK or an equivalent replacement or not.

Just out of curiosity....Does Purolator list the FJR1300 as an application for that filter or has the Purolator filter become common because someone, somewhere decided it was OK and started using it.?? If that Purolator filter is not specifically listed as an FJR replacement filter then you might have problems at some point if there was an oil or oil filter related problem. Hard to convince a jury the filter was OK "just because..." someone on the internet said it was fine. Personally, I do not want to entertain the arguement either way so I just use the OEM filters. I KNOW those work.

I really seriously doubt that the oil filter itself had any bearing on a clutch failure, though. If an oil filter was a problem I would think it would show up in bearing distress or oil temps instead of a clutch failing.

Is there any chance that the engine that failed the clutch was using any coolant? Was the coolant level in the rad low or does the coolant level in the recovery tank drop requiring regular coolant additions to keep it full...?? I ask because ethyleneglycol and most clutch plates in wet clutches do not play well together. EG can cause the clutch material bonded to the clutch plates to simply desintegrate and fall off in chunks. Very common failure in automotive automatic transmissions when a transmission oil cooler in the radiator end tank fails and coolant leaks into the transmission. If the engine was using even a little bit of coolant it could contaminate the oil and clutch material and possibly cause the clutch material to desintegrate. I have never tested the FJR clutch material to prove that this is the case but I have seen LOTS of automatic transmissions clutch plates fail like this so I would not be surprised at all to see the FJR plates fail in the presence of EG. Any sort of internal coolant leak would contaminate the oil with coolant and potentially lead to this failure.

Any previous work done on the engine, side covers, cam cover, etc. where scotchbrite was used to clean up the gasket surfaces? Another potential clutch plate failure mechanism is the contamination of the oil with even tiny amounts of the dust from scotchbrite pads that would occur if they are used to clean up the side cover (generator) before reassembly.

 

[SkooterG]

What a major ***-pain. Glad you have got it resolved.

Let's keep the big picture in mind here.........

According to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in regards to a failure, when push comes to shove, THEY (Yamaha) have to prove that the non-OEM filter caused the problems to not cover it. That is why Yammie is being so gracious as to allow you this one time *deal*. *Deal*, my ***. They know they have to fix it and are just trying to make you happy by covering up what a bungling ***** your dealer is.

And as has already been said, the simple solution here is to bring the FJR to a decent dealer in the first place. One that is eager to help solve your problem. Not one who is looking for ways to deny it.

Or do as our wise friend Jestal says. I used to use the Purolator filter, and have gone back to the stock. Not because I don't think the Purolator is good enough, and not because I am worried about warranty issues. I went back to OEM simply because I am lazy, and it's easier to order several at a time for relatively cheap from University Motors (as well as air filters, crush washers, ect) when ordering other parts and have them delivered to my front door.

 

[cctxfjr]

What a major ***-pain. Glad you have got it resolved.
Let's keep the big picture in mind here.........

According to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in regards to a failure, when push comes to shove, THEY (Yamaha) have to prove that the non-OEM filter caused the problems to not cover it. That is why Yammie is being so gracious as to allow you this one time *deal*. *Deal*, my ***. They know they have to fix it and are just trying to make you happy by covering up what a bungling ***** your dealer is.

And as has already been said, the simple solution here is to bring the FJR to a decent dealer in the first place. One that is eager to help solve your problem. Not one who is looking for ways to deny it.

Or do as our wise friend Jestal says. I used to use the Purolator filter, and have gone back to the stock. Not because I don't think the Purolator is good enough, and not because I am worried about warranty issues. I went back to OEM simply because I am lazy, and it's easier to order several at a time for relatively cheap from University Motors (as well as air filters, crush washers, ect) when ordering other parts and have them delivered to my front door.

M-M act sounds good in theory however in real life conditions at the local court house all the vehicle oem has to prove is the after market part has no test data to show it meets oem specs or the test data does not meet the very minimium oem specs. The rest of the proceedings is a slam dunk for them. The oem sets the acceptable specs. Been there and done that with a Cummins engine in a Dodge pickup.

 

[jestal]

I know I am a little biased in my thinking since I work for one of the OEM's.....but.....the aftermarket parts are rarely, if ever, as good as OEM parts and they are certainly not tested and validated like the OEM parts are. People that argue with this often have no idea of how the OEM parts are tested and validated and what is encompassed with a complete validation for a component. Nor do they usually take into account the complete range of operating conditions that the part might have to deal with. That is why many OEM's will often assume that the use of an aftermarket part may have caused a problem.

One example of this sitation with oil filters exists where certain "premium" filter marketiers sell a filter that has a finer filter media and they market the reduced micron particle containment of their filter. Can't argue with motherhood and apple pie, now, can we? Finer has to be better!!! Wrong. There is no free lunch and finer filtration caused increased restriction. The aftermarket filters do filter finer...but they bypass much more dirty/unfiltered oil directly back to the engine due to restriction. Those filters were tested and rejected by the OEM. You can still buy and use them, though. Would someone reject a warranty claim because of this??? Hard to say but there certainly could be merit in that stance under the correct circumstances. The OEM is NOT responsible for making the engine/vehicle accept any and all aftermarket parts. When you chose to use an aftermarket part you are trusting the aftermarket manufacturer/marketier to do that..... In a warranty dispute it is often very very easy to prove the aftermarket part to be inferior, whether it directly caused the problem or not.

Fundamentally, the aftermarket parts exist because of demand for lower cost parts. You can just about guarantee the aftermarket part will be "cheaper" in one way or another. It has to be or no one would buy it. The OEM parts get heavy cost scrutiny also but the parts must be proven to function. Aftermarket parts are rarely, if ever, actually tested in the application they are sold for. They are designed "to fit" and validated based on engineering judgement and the old "I can tell by looking" that it will work method. Same way a lot of people decide that the aftermarket parts can be substituted for applications they are not specifically called out for.

In the case of oil filters, there is extreme cost competition out in the market place. And there are only a few manufacturing sources for all the oil filters. A manufacturer like Champion Labs might make oil filters for many different brands on the shelf. Does that mean they are all OK to use? No. Champion Labs manufacturers the filters to the individual brand's specifications. Champion makes filters for the OEM's, too, and those particular filters are very different in content and quality even though they come off the exact same manufacturing line. Champion Labs is not responsible for the different brands of filters.....the company spec'ing and marketing them is.

Just a few alternative ideas to keep in mind when you shop thru the aftermarket parts.

 

[mdisher]

Where is our resident Oil Filter Guru?? We need to know if there is so much difference between the Purolator filter and the Yamaha filter to justify having to use their high priced $13.00 filter.

I have no idea if the Purolator filter is equivalent to the Yamaha filter..... I use the OEM Yamaha oil filter because I know it works and I really don't want to bother trying to replace something that works...LOL....too many other things to re-engineer to be bothered with the oil filter.

<snip>

So do you also only use Yamalube 20/40? Always? Or is that not important?

I think we all agree all things are not made equal, and that *super3rd Party Filter X* might not be batter just because it costs more, as well as *cheapo3rd Party Filter Y* may or may not be better.

Isn't the Yamaha filter a re-labled Denso? I'm sure Denso could change the innards but I doubt it.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Or instead of dicking around and limiting yourself to Yammy's products, you could use an acceptable substitute and find a dealership that won't look to ream you out the minute you walk in the door. I can think of a few...

There is your key. I have a good relationship with my dealer maintenance dept. and simply put, I can't believe that this would be an issue there. FInd another dealer that cares. Let the maintenance manager know why you are there...to try them out and compare their level of service. Talk about the issues you had with him/her and see their reaction.

 

[jestal]

So do you also only use Yamalube 20/40? Always? Or is that not important?
I'm sure Denso could change the innards but I doubt it.

No, as oft stated, I use 15W40 Delvac or Delo oil, not the Yamaha oil. And, yes, it is very important. Bit of a different situation, if you think about it. Oil has industry standard performance specifications that it is rated by, that are common across the auto/motorcycle/diesel industry. That provides you with a means of assuring that the aftermarket product/oil you are using meets the same performance standards since each container is labeled with the performance standards that it meets.

Filters and such have no such common performance standards to judge them by so there is a much greater "unknown" with the aftermarket hard parts. The aftermarket filters might work fine, I am not necessarily condemning them nor saying that they will not work. It is just the unknown about the performance of them that makes me feel better with the OEM filters.

Whether Denso makes the filters or not, it really is no assurance of what is in them. Denso could easily make the OEM filters to Yamaha's spec and make their own replacement aftermarket filters to their own (cheaper) spec. Would not be the first time something like this happened. Denso brand competes on price, period. Without some regulated performance specifications (like oil has) there is just no way of knowning how well the filter will perform and I do not want to do their testing for them.

 

[mdisher]

So do you also only use Yamalube 20/40? Always? Or is that not important?
I'm sure Denso could change the innards but I doubt it.

No, as oft stated, I use 15W40 Delvac or Delo oil, not the Yamaha oil. And, yes, it is very important. Bit of a different situation, if you think about it. Oil has industry standard performance specifications that it is rated by, that are common across the auto/motorcycle/diesel industry.

But you're still screwed, because Delvac 15W40 isn't Yamalube 20w40, regardless of the specs, if they want to push it that far right? Last time I checked the manual didn't say Yamalube 20/40 or any applicable equivalent, it said, Yamalube 20/40

It's all semantics... The same semantics and BS that are used in the filter argument.

Are there differences in filters? You bet. There was a link somewhere about folks testing the filters for flow and the FRAM filters performed absolutely the worst if I recall correctly.

I'm don't completely disagree with you Jestal, the filters may or may not be the same, but *most* quality filters *should* perform adequately for the task at hand. That particular dealer was just being ***-ish about it. (I know some around here would do the same)

 

[radman]

I buy AC Delco filters for our fleet all the time. I pay about 1/3 the amount a GM dealer sells them across the counter for. Same filter, the money goes to the dealers bottom line, as GM sets the price, the dealer shops and buys at the lowest price he can, yet sells them at a price GM determined would give him a reasonable mark up if he bought them directly from GM, as intended. Now, Yamaha isn't GM, and I am unaware of any competition in the marketplace for oem Yami filters. But, unless that cannister contains unobtanium (and I've had them apart and looked, they don't), there's just no way that price can be arrived at except through pure and simple excessive mark up.

The Yamaha oem filter

The Purolator

I use the Pure 1 because it's a better filter, an all around better filter. Better construction, better relief valve construction (at 17 psi I might add, I believe but cannot confirm the Yam is 18 psi), the Yam used paper end caps, ala Fram, generally acknowledged to be a piece of **** by motorheads everywhere, the Pure does not. The Genny Yam filter uses a 25 cent piece of stamped steel as a relief valve, not unlike those found in $1.99 generic junk filters, the Pure 1 a coil spring. Tell me how accurate do you think that stamping is at maintaining 18 psi exactly? Which one, if all other conditions were eliminated, would you rather have on your hi-perf favorite toy? Note the above photo isn't even the Pure 1, built to a yet higher standard, yet still half the price of that Yami junk. Now I buy and believe in oem parts for a lot of reasons, but it isn't a hard and fast rule. One must research what one uses-and make decisions based on facts and not marketing or claims, as has been said. The informed consumer is a dangerous animal, marketing types tremble in fear the world over when people start making informed purchasing decisions.

Edit-the Yam filter is designed to-get this-relieve at 17.19 to 26.01 lbs, near as I can calculate. Now, thats precision.

 

[Mike-H]

Okay the question then is.....are flow rates of the stock filter & the pure 1 the same?.....I've heard they are not?.....& if it takes out your clutch, or motor should you have warranty?

 

[mdisher]

I want to know what a country singer is doing cutting open oil filters. Oh, wait that's Toby Keith.

 

[wpbfjr]

so, help me here, radman...

as i'm just joe dumb consumer, in your pics, i like the yammi filter cause it seems to have greater surface area and to my untrained eye more avenues of oil flow...

is spring/relief psi more important than available filter media? is the relief psi used daily, or only when the filter traps more and more particulate?

tia,

dana

 

[Bounce]

looks to me that it will be an issue if non spec parts are used and then a warranty claim filed especially down the road a ways and it might be hard to convince a judge or jury in local small claims court that a car filter is okay to use on a bike and it might be hard to get the filter people to say their filter is okay for a bike. They probably dont have test data for a bike application. Its sure something to consider when one goes after market and most especially non spec after market parts.

But all after market is non spec according to what they were telling me. That's nonsense. You're right about the small claims scenario & I'm glad I'm not trying to get my $700 out of them after the fact.

the law is called Magnuson-Moss

[not a lawyer and don't play one on tee vee]

it prevents companies (dealers and mfgrs) from tying warranties to their specific branded products (oils, filters, etc.). if they demand you use their product brand, they have to provide it for free. the "meets of exceeds" aftermarket product doesn't void the warranty and they have to prove a specific failure is a direct cause of using the "meets of exceeds" substitute.

--edit-- i see after more reading, that this has been hashed and rehashed. sucky dealers suck!

 

[SkooterG]

Damn you, rad. Now I am going to have to go back to the Purolator oil filters. Or even worse, the $$$ Mobil1 filter.

 

[Warchild]

I use the Pure 1 because it's a better filter, an all around better filter. Better construction, better relief valve construction (at 17 psi I might add, I believe but cannot confirm the Yam is 18 psi), the Yam used paper end caps, ala Fram, generally acknowledged to be a piece of **** by motorheads everywhere, the Pure does not. The Genny Yam filter uses a 25 cent piece of stamped steel as a relief valve, not unlike those found in $1.99 generic junk filters, the Pure 1 a coil spring. Tell me how accurate do you think that stamping is at maintaining 18 psi exactly? Which one, if all other conditions were eliminated, would you rather have on your hi-perf favorite toy?

Some good dope here, rad...... I was unaware of the paper end caps, in particular. :glare:

 

[Mike-H]

Okay the question then is.....are flow rates of the stock filter & the pure 1 the same?.....I've heard they are not?.....& if it takes out your clutch, or motor should you have warranty?

So is the flow rate of the filter unimportant then?.....anyone?.....

 

[FJRMGM]

my response to them would be "and specifically, what is it about this non-oem filter that you can PROVE caused the problem?"

Have they pulled the filter to inspect the insides for damage? Did they test it for pressure versus an OEM?

IMHO, A filter that is bad enough to cause clutch failure would certainly cause other major lack-of-oil related failures waaaaaay before a clutch problem.

Honestly, when was the last time you heard of or actually saw ANY oil filter related failures on any decently maintained engine of any type?

 

[radman]

so, help me here, radman...
as i'm just joe dumb consumer, in your pics, i like the yammi filter cause it seems to have greater surface area and to my untrained eye more avenues of oil flow...

is spring/relief psi more important than available filter media? is the relief psi used daily, or only when the filter traps more and more particulate?

tia,

dana

The Pure1 has more surface area than the Yam filter, though it might not appear so. When both are cut open, all the material pulled out and measured, the Purolator has more. The pic shows a Honda spec filter, and the plain Purolator to boot, not the Pure 1. It also has a finer media-the increase in surface area helps reduce the restriction caused by the finer media. All filters cause restrictions-they bypass more than one would think. Thick oil, cold starts, accumulated dirt reducing available area, high rpms can all cause a filter to bypass. Repeated bypassing can distort the seal to the point the filter stays bypassed, if only partially. Thats why it pays to use the best. The Yam filter is not junk, but it isn't, IMHO, the best available for the motor, thats why I use what I use. If the Pure 1 cost $15, thats still the filter Frank would get, and still just as often (every 1500-2000 miles). I cannot stand the thought of dirty ring lands-makes me wanna vomit. Hey, we all have our triggers, right?

Great Oil Filter Breakdown

 

[otrfjr]

my response to them would be "and specifically, what is it about this non-oem filter that you can PROVE caused the problem?"
Have they pulled the filter to inspect the insides for damage? Did they test it for pressure versus an OEM?

IMHO, A filter that is bad enough to cause clutch failure would certainly cause other major lack-of-oil related failures waaaaaay before a clutch problem.

Honestly, when was the last time you heard of or actually saw ANY oil filter related failures on any decently maintained engine of any type?

That WAS my response (& the line of argument I used with Cypress, CA: catastrophic failure would have occurred elsewhere before the clutch was affected), and they answered because it's not OEM, it doesn't meet specs. Circular logic all the way around. I looked in my service manual today, and guess what: no, I repeat, no part # is ever listed for the oil filter. They specify API ratings for oil, but there's not one damn word in the service manual that specifies OEM must be used for the oil filter (or there will be catastrophic failure). [Please correct me if I'm wrong: I checked under "Specifications" and "Oil Pump" 'cause that was the only place I could locate a schematic that included the oil filter.] I might work my way around to their point if the bike was a few years old & subject to sludge buildup & they presented a coherent argument about how this might affect clutch plates (which it doesn't as far as I can tell), but on a bike that's less than 2 months old? C'mon. The customer rep in trying to get me to buy the "clutch is a normal wear item" said that there's no way to tell if my riding style contributed to the problem. I said that in order for me to burn up the clutch in 2000 miles, I would need to cruise at 80 while slipping the clutch for an extended period. As it turns out, I don't do this. Nor have I taken the bike to the drag strip (which is only 8 miles away & loads of fun: took the V-Max there). Nor do I thrash it. If anything, I tend to baby it.

To respond to Jestal: I buy your point, but only so far. That's fine if the OEM does a buttload (which is a unit of measurement) of testing to find the perfect fit for their product. What I object to is the companies then keeping this information classified. Knowledge is power & if corporation X doesn't release the specs for their OEM part, then for all the universe knows every other single non-OEM part is out of spec. If Yamaha had said to me: these are the specs of our oil filter, now prove that your replacement meets them, I would have either done it or taken my lumps. They didn't. They said it's not spec because it's not OEM. I believe that is shoddy logic. May be profitable, but it's still shoddy.

 

[Scab]

And again, for those taking notes...the part number of the Purolator filter?