when to switch to synthetic
- Thread starter slick001
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
I know that you will not believe but it is true. I just went out to the garage and read the advertising on the back of the bottles of Amsoil, Mobil 1 and Royal Purple and guess what. Amsoil is the 'only one that did not advertise extended oil change intervals, on the bottle at least. The other two did. Does this mean that Mobil 1 and Royal Purple are no longer credible either?
Last edited by a moderator:
DrQ
Active member
I'd better change my oil SOON
Well....."guesser" is a bit harsh for describing the GM oil life monitor....Given the amount of research and development and validation that went into the oil life monitor system "guesser" is not applicable.
There are several approaches in the industry for oil life. Some vehicles (Merc and BMW and others) have an actual oil quality sensor. It can react to acid level, some contaminants and oxidation levels of the oil depending on the type of sensor. The sensors on the market are either resistive or capacitive. They do have problems with them with some contaminants and some oil additives and they are not terribly reliable from our data.
The other approach is the one GM pioneered back in the mid-80's when the work on the oil life monitor started. The oil life monitor is indeed a computer model of everything that "ages" oil. It counts engine revolutions as a basis for approximating ZDP depletion since ZDP depletion is linear with engine revolutions. It adds severity factors based on ambient temperature, oil temperature, soak times, run time intervals, load, RPM, etc..... to accurately model the engine oil life. The nice thing about this approach is that it is completely reliable (all software in the engine computer) with no additional parts or wires to break or leak or fail or add cost.
Oil life is TOTALLY dependent on the driving schedule. Period. Mileage or time alone is not adequate. You MUST constantly monitor the driving schedule. Short trips in winter weather might require an oil change every 1500 miles in severe cases (so much for that 3000 mile advice) due to contaminants buildup. On the other hand, long trips in moderate weather might allow the engine to go 12,500 miles between changes. That is another advantage of the oil life monifor in GM vehicles. It will constantly track the operating schedule and predict the oil life based on percent oil life left so that you can tell when to change the oil in advance before it is totally used up. Oil quality sensors do not do this. They can tell when a threshold is passed for the oil being used up and warn the operator but they do not monitor the driving schedule and actually predict use.
The other nice thing about the oil life monitor is that it is calibrated for each specific engine. Different engines will age or "use up" the oil at different rates depending on the design features of the engine and how much oil is in the system for that engine. This is another reason that blanket oil change intervals are worse than useless....they are very misleading. An engine with a spur gear oil pump driven by the distributor drive gear with flat (rubbing) tappets will deplete the oil FAR faster than an engine will a gerotor oil pump on the crank with no distributor gear and roller tappets. The oil life monitor is calibrated to reflect that. That is why it is so important to follow the oil life monitor for oil changes and ignore all the old wives tales of when to change the oil other wise. Most of that "advice" is meant to sell more oil anyway.
Toecutter
What would DoG do?
I stand corrected. Real well educated guesser.Well....."guesser" is a bit harsh for describing the GM oil life monitor....
It has to assume you put the OEM spec'ed oil in there. Even if Royal Purple or, in my friend's case, Amsoil had some actual basis and factual way to extend oil life, the Moinitor wouldn't detect it and would go on the pre-programmed algorithm for determining when to tell you to change your oil, right?.
DucatiSSsp
Well-known member
Thanks for your reply Jestal!You are likely hearing some piston slap when the engine is cold. It really is harmless and will have absolutely no effect on the longetivity or performance of the engine. It is just annoying when the engine is cold. Most all piston designs these days push the edge of light weight, low friction, etc.... Unfortunately, much of what you do to a piston design to get it light and low friction tends to make it slightly noisy as piston slap becomes more prevalent.Very informative post by Jestal! I had been thinking about buying a new Camry and was visiting various Toyota Forums, where I heard about various engines being damaged by sludge or gelling. Now I know the reason for it. Also found out Toyotas new 6-speed auto tranny is having its fair share of problems!
A ??? for Jestal, not meaning to hijack the thread, but my '06 Sierra 5.3 makes a nice knocking sound on start-up that last for a minute or two.
Dealer says normal noise, just the piston rocking a little till it expands. A year old now and the knockin' seems to be louder and last longer.
Truck runs fine and gets 15.5 mpg mixed driving. I asked the dealer why my coworkers truck with the same motor doesn't knock? Is It broken?
......no reply!
Any comments would be welcome and promise not to take reply to dealer as I'm about to trade it in!
TIA,
Bryce
Piston slap occurs when the piston reaches top dead center and the thrust load on the piston changes from one side of the bore to the other and the piston "shifts" slightly in the bore making the noise. When the piston is cold and the bore is cold the clearance is slightly larger (by only tenths of thousandths) and the piston motion is slightly exacerbated thus leading to the noise when cold that goes away when the engine warms up.
It really is harmless and occurs somewhat randomly and rarely due to production tolerances of pistons and bores and how cold the engine is. Since the piston is clearanced and designed for proper operation when hot the cold "slap" is a byproduct of the clearances required for hot operation and how they change when the engine is cold.
In the cases where the piston slaps a bit when cold the engineers just pushed the edge of making it light/lowfriction/etc. a bit too close. Replacement designs are a little more conservative.
If race engines didn't have open headers you would hear horrendous piston slap....LOL. It is actually a good sign in some cases but not really a desireable feature in a production engine since it is so quiet otherwise.
Nice to have your knowledge and generosity on the forum!
Bryce
I got the oil about a month ago. I guess you could call that old. The Mobil 1 is the regular old SuperSyn 10w/30 full Synthetic motor oil. It isn’t there "extended service" Mobil 1, yet it states that it is good for longer oil change intervals with no word of following the manufacturers recommendations or an Oil Life Monitor.
I have yet to see a synthetic oil that doesn't use the "Marketing Hype" as you call it, for extended oil drain intervals. I have read the hype and there reasons to back it up but I have yet to read any credible test to dispute it. I also cannot see that they can advertise something and not have "some" truth behind it without getting their butts sued.
Synthetics may not have extended oil drain intervals, I don’t know I always change oil at 4k, but I really doubt that you know either. Lets see the test.
sprint_st
Well-known member
In the grand sceme, do you really think any of this oil crap means anything??? Most of the guys who read this will sell their bike WAY before 100K miles and the major reason for engine damage is high speed contact with terra firma not the kind of oil you use. Someone put a link to a car oil test where a bunch of guys sent in oil samples of something like 5w40 of Mobil 1 and Amsoil. They didn't change the oil until 12K miles. The real interesting thing to me was how little wear and viscosity change there was in these two synthetics, especially the Mobil 1. My Triumph has a change interval of about 6K and the FJR is 4K and quite frankly I'll dump my oil more on what's going on rather than miles. By that, I mean if I'm going on a long trip and I changed the oil 3K ago, I'll probably dump it, if it's the end of the riding season, I will dump it. Occasionally my Triumph has hit maybe 8K. I'm probably going to use synthetic in my FJR because as someone said, it makes me feel good. Now for my clincher, I wasted a lot of time in chemistry labs at Ohio University and one of the few things they did drive home was that there is a thing called the scientific method. You can say anything, anywhere and at any time, but without scientific proof using accepted scientific methods it equates to opinion. The only things that even got close to "evidence" I have ever seen in any of these oil threads boiled down to collections of oil tests, mostly from fleet records, not motorcycles. MCN and Sport Rider both had totally bogus studies, and I really use the term study loosely. All the evidence that I have seen, and I definitely did NOT do a comprehensive scientific study, tells me synthetic holds up better and longer than dino oils. I will be happy to change that opinion WHEN I see some numbers, apples to apples numbers, to show otherwise. Someone stating dino is as good as synthetic, no matter if they are the chief petroleum engineer for EXXON, doesn't mean squat without some studies to back it up.
Last edited by a moderator:
Who said I make short trips. I certainly didn't. I live in Central Oregon; there is no such thing as short trips. :lol: :lol:
Lets see some real test. I don't want to just here you dispute all the test and baffle us with BS and call that gospel.You may doubt it.....but I do know....
Last edited by a moderator:
05fjrman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2006
- Messages
- 214
- Reaction score
- 0
good point sprint. most people are going to do what makes them feel best anyway. it's their money. i was talking to my yami dealer the other day, actually in there to buy oil i was asking which was better, yamaha, amsoil, spectro, etc. he kind of laughted that i was so concerned. he basically told me, as long as i make sure there is sufficient oil in the crank, and i change my oil every 3k miles, i probably won't ever tell the difference. some people say their bike shifts better with synthetic, but some other people have noted more clutch slippage. me, i'm going to be running yamaha 4r. although i might switch to amsoil full synthetic at my next change, since it's about 1.00 cheaper per quart.
jestal, which facility do you work at? and is all that info based on the person changing the filter with every oil change?
i was asking which was better, yamaha, amsoil, spectro, etc. he kind of laughted that i was so concerned. he basically told me, as long as i make sure there is sufficient oil in the crank, and i change my oil every 3k miles, i probably won't ever tell the difference. some people say their bike shifts better with synthetic, but some other people have noted more clutch slippage. me, i'm going to be running yamaha 4r. although i might switch to amsoil full synthetic at my next change, since it's about 1.00 cheaper per quart.jestal, which facility do you work at? and is all that info based on the person changing the filter with every oil change?
evil_henchman
Well-known member
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....Lets see some real test. I don't want to just here you dispute all the test and baffle us with BS and call that gospel.
h34r: Good advice. I should know better.Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....Lets see some real test. I don't want to just here you dispute all the test and baffle us with BS and call that gospel.
evil_henchman
Well-known member
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. It’s all about getting what you pay for. Having made blends at a refinery I can say first hand that oil companies are the worlds biggest crooks. You wouldn’t believe what makes it out the door, oil and fuel, and there’s always no shortage of buyers looking for a name brand at dirt cheap prices and no questions asked. Do you really think an oil company is going to flush 100,000 gallons of oil because it’s “a little off spec”? With fuels the effects of off spec product are usually immediate and pretty easy to identify and deal with. Not so with lube oil. You could fill most engines with gear oil and it would probably run fine for thousands of miles but it would fail eventually.
Using off spec oil is like smoking. It’s not going to kill you right away but the more you do it the sooner you die. Conventional oils are, more often than not, in spec. But conventional base stocks being what they are, i.e., a natural product from all over the world, don’t react to additives in the same way all the time. Sometimes for whatever reason they just refuse to meet specification. Other times they meet specification but only after the additive balance is…unusual so to speak. Other times it’s just plain garbage that somebody doesn’t want to dispose of as hazardous waste. Good example, my son opened a 5 qt. jug of Valvoline 10w-30 (from Walmart) and brought it over and asked if it smelled ok to me. One whiff of the sulfur/sewer stink and I knew it that “somehow” recycled oil found it’s way into a Valvoline jug. It even had the telltale layer of black at the bottom from the clay in the plate frame filters.
Synthetic base stocks are always the same, that’s the whole point isn’t it? And they always react the exact same way to additive blends. Chances are pretty close to 100% you’ll get what you pay for because it’s almost impossible to screw up a blend. The same 100% expectation can be applied to motorcycle brand name oils, including non synthetics. Reason being they don’t refine or blend the oil themselves and you can bet they hold the oil companies to a tight standard.
I use synthetics, and not the “synthetics” that can be had for $10 per gallon at Walmart, in everything not only because of the reasons I’ve stated but because they’re just a better product. And using them gives me wood.
Using off spec oil is like smoking. It’s not going to kill you right away but the more you do it the sooner you die. Conventional oils are, more often than not, in spec. But conventional base stocks being what they are, i.e., a natural product from all over the world, don’t react to additives in the same way all the time. Sometimes for whatever reason they just refuse to meet specification. Other times they meet specification but only after the additive balance is…unusual so to speak. Other times it’s just plain garbage that somebody doesn’t want to dispose of as hazardous waste. Good example, my son opened a 5 qt. jug of Valvoline 10w-30 (from Walmart) and brought it over and asked if it smelled ok to me. One whiff of the sulfur/sewer stink and I knew it that “somehow” recycled oil found it’s way into a Valvoline jug. It even had the telltale layer of black at the bottom from the clay in the plate frame filters.
Synthetic base stocks are always the same, that’s the whole point isn’t it? And they always react the exact same way to additive blends. Chances are pretty close to 100% you’ll get what you pay for because it’s almost impossible to screw up a blend. The same 100% expectation can be applied to motorcycle brand name oils, including non synthetics. Reason being they don’t refine or blend the oil themselves and you can bet they hold the oil companies to a tight standard.
I use synthetics, and not the “synthetics” that can be had for $10 per gallon at Walmart, in everything not only because of the reasons I’ve stated but because they’re just a better product. And using them gives me wood.
Last edited by a moderator:
