A question about counter steering

[drew231506]

Just helping the thread get to 100 posts...

I've read Park's book numerous times and taken the class, and I've read Code's books and have booked the class. I too haven't been able to figure out this whole counter steer thing either. Maybe at what point to and how quickly to do it...but doing it is natural, I would think. Once you set the lean angle the bike should track on that line. I think in Code's book and class he just talks about it to prove that you cant turn a motorcycle (much) with just leaning or weight shift. He has a bike with bars that are locked he proves this theory with.

I try to use just my inside arm to do the turning but sometimes its awkward. Dunno why. The one thing that really helps me control the bike while cornering is keeping my butt towards the back of the seat so my back can support my weight which helps get most of my weight off of the handlebars.

 

[wheatonFJR]

<snip>
i have a nasty habit of getting off the bike in a curve, but not really leaning forward. i'm leaning off the bike, but i'm keeping my *** back. that's not really helping my cornering any. a trusted and well-respected riding buddy (the one i mentioned i'm loaning my fjr to in the thread on "do you let others ride your m/c") reminded me i need to get my weight not only off the bike to the side, but up near the grips. when i'm doing the "stick my *** out back" lean, it's easy to pull on the handlebars; when i remind myself to lean off and up, that's when i find myself pushing more and pulling less.

dean

cincinnati

My experience exactly. When I shift over AND lean forward...then I tend to naturally push the bars and all feels well. When I have sat back on the bike and things get tight I have more of a tendency to do the "death grip" of my two hands working against each other.

 

[Fred W]

OK, so I think that I've mentioned here before that I am a high school track coach in my free time when I'm not an Electrocution Engineer (with capital E's) or posting here. I coach the jumps. Long Jump, Triple jump, and more importantly to this discussion, High Jump.

When a high jumper runs his approach he typically runs a "J" pattern. It's a short length straight forward, perpendicular to the bar (4-5 steps) followed by a ~ 70-80 degree curved section of 4-5 steps just before the take off in front of the bar. The jumper needs the curved part to develop the centrifugal force to allow him to develop the end over end body rotation needed to clear their lower body over the bar.

Here's the interesting part as related to this discussion: When the jumper's approach transitions from the "straight ahead" part to the "curve" guess what happens instinctively? Countersteering. Or counter-running if you will.

Yup. That's right. It's nearly impossible to quickly initiate the transition into a lean toward the inside of the curve without first allowing the legs and feet to drift (just a little) to the outside line of the curve. The only difference here is that a jumper's feet can apply lateral pressure to help tilt the body that a motorcycle tire cannot, so the amount of "counter-steering" needed when running a J approach is not as much as what would be needed to steer a bicycle or motorcycle over the same course.

Do you think I discuss these things with my jumpers? Not on your life... We just work on the "feelings" and "muscle memory" and "repetition". Why? Because in the heat of a competition, all that thinking stuff breaks down first. The ONLY things that stand up under pressure are those that are completely memorized and feel totally natural.

Make your own parallels to what you imagine happens on the road in a crisis. The main point is that "counter steering" is 100% natural and intuitive. It does not require a lot of thought process to happen.

Post #62. Pumping for the century post mark.

 

[feejer222]

From what I can see from your avatar the rider is not just pushing right, his left arm does not looked relaxed to me.

How you can tell which arm is doing what from the tiny static picture has got me beat. The guy is riding a superbike at world level and wrestling it through a corner. Like I said, overcomplicating & reading too much into a simple process.

I really don't mean to sound glib, but I believe that this is a case of way over-thinking a situation.

The guy who wrote the book has to fill the pages with something so has to elaborate on every item. The cleverer he makes himself sound and the less he makes you think you know the more books he will sell. Just my opinion.

 

[uctofeej]

Do you think I discuss these things with my jumpers? Not on your life... We just work on the "feelings" and "muscle memory" and "repetition". Why? Because in the heat of a competition, all that thinking stuff breaks down first. The ONLY things that stand up under pressure are those that are completely memorized and feel totally natural.
Make your own parallels to what you imagine happens on the road in a crisis. The main point is that "counter steering" is 100% natural and intuitive. It does not require a lot of thought process to happen.

Um, Fred, whether they are aware of it or not, you are teaching process. You highlight specific points of it by mentioning "feelings" and "muscle memory," but they have to become aware of those two things in order to learn to do it correctly. No one is born knowing how to high jump, nor are born knowing how to countersteer. Some of any process can be left implicit, if that's the way you coach it. But an intelligent athlete who wants to compete at a higher level will eventually recognize the need to better understand the processes and how to best adopt them to their own individual style.

Don't get me wrong, the basics of counter-steering are something that can be learned rather easily, even if one is not explicitly aware of the full process. But, it can only be utilized to a certain extent, it has limits of effectiveness when used only at the basic level. Until a person becomes consciously aware of their own shortcomings and actively looks for areas of improvement, they will have a very basic riding style. It is not until they have synchronized it as part of a larger set of steering variables that they have truly mastered counter-steering.

I would argue that professional racers give us the best example that this is one of many processes they focus on. You never hear a racer of any kind say they just ran a perfect lap. They might say it was their best lap, but never perfect. Why? Because they did not string together all the processes absolutely perfectly, and they are completely conscious of that fact. Even if some of it comes so natural to them, they will know when they don't do it right and how it impacted other areas, counter-steering included.

The very fact that the questions in this topic have been raised highlights the point that counter-steering is a process. Some don't think it is quite as natural as others claim. If some do have it mastered, great. They can move on to something else while I spend some time focusing on improving my steering.

 

[Bustanut joker]

36 and counting

:jester:

 

[wheatonFJR]

Counter steering is easier to do than to explain...just because alot of words are involved doesn't mean it is a complex process.

For example: write a concise essay on how to tie your shoelaces. I bet 10 people would read your essay and each have comments on how your technique was incorrect. However, a 5 year old can tie his shoelaces just fine.

Yes, the discussion is important...but too much noise crowds out the obvious sometimes.

 

[cougar8000]

Yes, the discussion is important...but too much noise crowds out the obvious sometimes.

But if you leave your palace, you will realize that there are farm boys who this is not so obvious or too new to the sport. And that is why it is good to have this type of discussions to be repeated now and then.

You on the other hand, can find another post to read instead :yahoo:

 

[uctofeej]

I'm just trying to say it's fine to ask these questions and talk about the related issues as much as someone wants to. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head (that I know of) to look at a particular topic. But it's b.s. for someone to come along and tell us to stop asking a question because *they* think it's so simple, especially when it's a legitimate motorcycle question.

Someone answered my specific question quite some time ago, so I'm just stirring the poo... uh, I mean getting us to 100 posts.

EDIT: Dang, cougar beat me to it... and more eloquently, I might add.

 

[wfooshee]

They even go so far as to insist on a straight arm on the inside bar. Kinda tough if you're hugging a tank, but pretty feasible on the Eff Jay Are.

WOW. stop. Hold the horses. Who ever told you to have a straight arm? I hope it was a huge miscommunication.

You never - ever want to have a straight arm. Your arm is used as an extension of the fork to soften the impact of the bumps. If you have a straight arm and hit the bump what do you think is going to happen? You must have it bent to be able to account for for fluctuations.

I hear what you're saying, and agree. That was my point, kinda. He was very clear. Now, on those Eliminator 125s we had, that's about the only way you can REACH the inside bar. The other thing it does is lean the bike down and keep you sitting up a bit, rather than leaning over the inside. Probably better for noobs. In the swerve exercise, the big leans back and forth under you while your body stays practically upright. Again, those 125s were a lot closer to bicycle weight than the FJR is!

 

[cougar8000]

EDIT: Dang, cougar beat me to it... and more eloquently, I might add.

Sorry, have no idea what happened. I am much rougher in my speech. :assassin:

 

[feejer222]

..........................................................s-sorry...was I snoring?

 

[wheatonFJR]

Yes, the discussion is important...but too much noise crowds out the obvious sometimes.

But if you leave your palace, you will realize that there are farm boys who this is not so obvious or too new to the sport. And that is why it is good to have this type of discussions to be repeated now and then.

You on the other hand, can find another post to read instead :yahoo:

or I can read this thread too and comment on it like you are...which I did. BTW, I'm not being uppity or thinking that I am somehow better than others. I just understand that simple concepts are best...and no one convinces others by using more words...in fact less words are generally more effective...Lincoln's Gettysburg Address for example.

I'm just trying to say it's fine to ask these questions and talk about the related issues as much as someone wants to. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head (that I know of) to look at a particular topic. But it's b.s. for someone to come along and tell us to stop asking a question because *they* think it's so simple, especially when it's a legitimate motorcycle question.
Someone answered my specific question quite some time ago, so I'm just stirring the poo... uh, I mean getting us to 100 posts.

EDIT: Dang, cougar beat me to it... and more eloquently, I might add.

Never told anyone to stop asking the question...just commented on the effectiveness of the discusion.

carry on...

...will 100 posts be reached?

...or more importantly will EVERYBODY countersteer correctly and effectively the prescribed way?

 

[cougar8000]

Less words might be better, but after teaching for 7 years hot to ride I can tell you that sometimes it takes more then just press right, go right. Not everyone consumes at the same rate.

And by keep telling that enough hashing the old and beaten horse on how to counter steer is exactly the same as telling people not to ask questions because some of us already know the answer to it. It puts a seed into peoples head that their question might be persived as a stupid question. And as we say in the safety world:"The only stupid question, is the question that wasn't asked".

Sorry, when it comes to safety topics I just think there is very little humor in it.

And Mark, I did not mean that you can't comment. It just sounds like this topic is getting to you and you tired on reading about it. So, I simply suggest that you might want to skip it next time.

 

[uctofeej]

Never told anyone to stop asking the question...just commented on the effectiveness of the discusion.

Wheaton, my bad. That wasn't intended for you. I should have made that clear. Others have been saying that.

 

[keithaba]

heheh #75, we're almost there!

There are 4 steps to effective teaching. This has been researched repeatedly and if you want, I'll reference some articles, but I don't think people are interested in reading the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis.

1. Discussion: This is how you counter steer, this is how you push, keep your outside arm loose.

2. Modeling: Watch me do it. Notice that my arm is relaxed. See my body position.

3. Practice: Wow, this feels pretty good, I never noticed that I was keeping my outside arm to stiff and using it to counter steer too much.

4. Critique: You did good keeping your arm relaxed, but try not to stiffin the inside arm so much. Keep your body lower, your sitting up too much.

Since I can't get modeling or critique, I post about some of what I feel I am not doing right to get input.

Which, by the way, has resulted in me paying attention to what I do. You can still be fast and not be riding with great body position and technique, but nobody on this forum can say they don't need improvement in their riding and body position. As Darwin Homstrom wrote: "Although it's taken me the better part of fory years, I've finally discovered one great truth about riding a motorcycle: I still have a hell of a lot to learn.

Bottom line, this post thread will reach 100 posts!

 

[SPORT]

From what I can see from your avatar the rider is not just pushing right, his left arm does not looked relaxed to me.

When cornering a sportbike, weight distribution plays a HUGE factor in turning. Riders, such as the one in the avatar, if properly executed, do not press much at all to maintain their lean angle. infact, the goal would be to 'equalize' lean angle and appropriate weight distribution, which requires little to no pressing/pulling. The rider's arms at that point only make minute changes.

It's really a euphoric experience.

 

[odot]

heheh #75, we're almost there!Bottom line, this post thread will reach 100 posts!

A pot of gold to the admin who closes this thread at 99.

 

[keithaba]

heheh #75, we're almost there!Bottom line, this post thread will reach 100 posts!

A pot of gold to the admin who closes this thread at 99.

don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

The 'press' is done to initiate lean (turn). Depending on the bike... some bike's geometry allows them to just 'rail' turns, being fairly neutral, and others require more 'push' on the inside h/bar to keep turning. Cornering's a function of many things: geometry (steering head angle, rake, trail, etc), handlebars, ergonomics, speed, tires .... just about everything --

including 'SPORT's:

...weight distribution plays a HUGE factor in turning

And....

It's really a euphoric experience.