Dead FJR - no starter engage/spin

[GMAK]

03/09/2017

"Dead FJR"

profile: 2007 FJR(A), ~31.5K miles, oem YUASA battery replacement

August/September 2016. Except for a headlight bulb replacement, I've

never had an ounce of trouble from this bike. But, it is seldom ridden.

Last ridden on a cold 03/04 morning, and returned home to its garage.

Planned a dinner ride on 03/08/, but starter doesn't engage/spin/.

Turning on initial ignition illuminates all instrumentation normally, and

all POST activities seem normal.

Pushing starter button dims instrumentation normally, spins fuel pump

(I assume normally, you never hear the fuel pump while the engine is

actually cranking). Everything seems normal.

Except, no starter engage/spin.

As diagnostic effort:

R/R'd the battery, checking/cleaning all connections/contacts. Also

ensured a full charge battery.

Did the expected activities concerning the clutch/side stand/neutral

lockout/ switch(es), thinking one of these switches might be the

culprit. No luck as yet.

I'm sure things have been omitted here, but I thought maybe someone

had seen or heard of a similar experience. Any clues?

Thanks – Gary

 

[SLK50]

Kill switch "off"?

 

[BkerChuck]

I accidentally bumped my kill switch once on my old FJ1100 and didn't notice it. Coworker pushed me up and down work driveway 3 or 4 times before I realized it. I didn't tell him for about a year.....

Assuming you checked that already, I'd get the battery load tested. Battery may be breaking down internally so it can show a full charge but once loaded like when you push the starter button it goes belly up.

Good luck.

 

[RossKean]

If you haven't already, try it in neutral - with and without the clutch lever pulled.

If not, the kill switch (either off or not functional) as SLK50 suggests.

 

[lnewlf]

Kill switch "off"?

fuel pump won't cycle with kill switch off...OP says pump runs..

 

[hppants]

1. When you say "no starter engage/spin", what exactly does that mean?

- You can physically hear the electrical starter motor spinning, but the 1300 cc engine is not turning?

- You know that the engine is turning when you engage the starter, but it won't start running on its own?

- You don't hear anything spinning when you press the starter button?

2. If the starter is spinning (you hear the starter motor working when you press the button), is it turning at what you perceive to be a normal speed? In other words, is the starter motor dragging, simulating a dead battery even though you believe the battery to be good?

3. Also, to clarify the "fuel pump" comment, do you mean that when you turn the key to the on position, without pressing the starter button, you hear the fuel pump running from within the fuel tank?

4. If the starter and the engine are spinning, have you checked to see if you have ignition spark at your plugs? Are you 100% sure that you have some fuel in the tank?

5. Finally, when you state that you did the "expected activities" with respect to the switches, does that mean that you jumped them out and attempted to start the bike? And if so, specifically which switches did you jump out?

- clutch

- sidestand

- neutral

With very specific answers to these very specific questions, I'd wager a sandwich that these peeps can diagnose your bike in less than 1 day.

 

[GMAK]

Kill switch "off"?

No, the kill switch off bypasses most/all POST activities I

mentioned, and certainly the fuel pump prime.

IOW, the whole bike is dead with kill off.

Thanks

 

[GMAK]

I accidentally bumped my kill switch once on my old FJ1100 and didn't notice it. Coworker pushed me up and down work driveway 3 or 4 times before I realized it. I didn't tell him for about a year.....
Assuming you checked that already, I'd get the battery load tested. Battery may be breaking down internally so it can show a full charge but once loaded like when you push the starter button it goes belly up.

Good luck.

That's a good point about the battery. I had the battery replaced

back 08/2017-09/2017. But, the initial battery went bad within 24

hours. As I recall, the behavior then(that stranded me) was very

similar to the behavior I described here/now. All the instrumentat-

ion/POST function normal. But, I didn't get the fuel pump. The

first battery was judged bad by virtue of an internal breakage,

that was determined by an ever-so-slight +post wiggle.

Thanks.

 

[GMAK]

If you haven't already, try it in neutral - with and without the clutch lever pulled.
If not, the kill switch (either off or not functional) as SLK50 suggests.

I tried every combination possible. But the initial discovery of the

failure, was made in neutral. One of my bike night peeps says I

should put the bike in gear and rock it back and forth, thinking

that the neutral switch might be stuck, or need a jolt. As yet, I

haven't tried that yet.

Thanks.

 

[GMAK]

Kill switch "off"?

fuel pump won't cycle with kill switch off...OP says pump runs..

That's right! And seems like many other initialization functions

we've become familiar with, are no longer present with an on

kill switch.

Thanks.

 

[GMAK]

My answers interspersed amongst your questions...
1. When you say "no starter engage/spin", what exactly does that mean?

The starter never starts the cycle to rotate the engine. "Engage"

in automobile parlance is the motion where the internal electric

starter contacts the engine flywheel first. Then "spin" is the star-

ter's secondary function to rotate the engine. The FJR probably

operates a little differently, but same concept.

There is absolutely no electric starter "engagement" with the bike

engine, nor any electric motor spinning. Either laden, or unladen.

I'm going to skip your multiple choice selections.

- You can physically hear the electrical starter motor spinning, but the 1300 cc engine is not turning?
- You know that the engine is turning when you engage the starter, but it won't start running on its own?

- You don't hear anything spinning when you press the starter button?

I hear no starting motion at all. Only fuel pump pulse for the duration

that the start button is depressed.

2. If the starter is spinning (you hear the starter motor working when you press the button), is it turning at what you perceive to be a normal speed? In other words, is the starter motor dragging, simulating a dead battery even though you believe the battery to be good?
3. Also, to clarify the "fuel pump" comment, do you mean that when you turn the key to the on position, without pressing the starter button, you hear the fuel pump running from within the fuel tank?

Normally, at least for me, I never hear the fuel pump pulse, because the

starting engine racket drowns it out. However, in my description, with no

engine starting racket, the fuel pump pulse is easily detectable. But, only

for the duration that the start button is depressed.

4. If the starter and the engine are spinning, have you checked to see if you have ignition spark at your plugs? Are you 100% sure that you have some fuel in the tank?

No, I have not checked spark, and the tank is full, almost.

5. Finally, when you state that you did the "expected activities" with respect to the switches, does that mean that you jumped them out and attempted to start the bike? And if so, specifically which switches did you jump out?- clutch

- sidestand

- neutral

No, it means that I "briefly" operated all the controls where I knew

there are safety lockout switches present. Clutch, side stand, and

neutral gear selector. Actually, the bike shows neutral when I start-

ed, but it was suggested I "fiddle" with the shift mechanism should

the internal switch need some kind of jolt. As I type, I've not done

that suggestion.

With very specific answers to these very specific questions, I'd wager a sandwich that these peeps can diagnose your bike in less than 1 day.

Perhaps, I just figured I can't be the only FJR owner to experience

this. That side stand lockout switch is highly exposed to road debris,

I suppose it could of been damaged by a road strike. Or, maybe there

is a fuse somewhere just for the starter ? Or maybe one of the lock-

out switches just went bad, or maybe the electric went bad. I don't

know. I'm just looking for viewpoints/suggestions/experience(s).

 

[GMAK]

03/09/2017

"Dead FJR"

"yada" "yada" "yada"....

I'll go out and make a more extensive diagnosis using the shift lever

topics I mentioned in replies. And, I'll make a cursory examination of

the side stand lock out switch, for damage, disconnect, etc.

In my earlier research, I did find this information. Although not for the

FJR, it seems pretty generic in instruction.

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Understanding/troubleshooting_the_safety_switches

I'll follow-up here with any useful information.

Thanks - Gary

 

[GMAK]

Kill switch "off"?

fuel pump won't cycle with kill switch off...OP says pump runs..

That's right! And seems like many other initialization functions

we've become familiar with, are no longer present with an on

kill switch.

Thanks.

That should be "off" kill switch. "off"kill=norun, "on"kill=run. It's

a confusing double negative.

 

[GMAK]

03/09/2017

"Dead FJR"

"yada" "yada" "yada"....

I'll go out and make a more extensive diagnosis using the shift lever

topics I mentioned in replies. And, I'll make a cursory examination of

the side stand lock out switch, for damage, disconnect, etc.

In my earlier research, I did find this information. Although not for the

FJR, it seems pretty generic in instruction.

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Understanding/troubleshooting_the_safety_switches

I'll follow-up here with any useful information.

Thanks - Gary

OK, here are my results from more diagnosis, moments ago....

After fooling around with the shift lever, as I described earlier,

I tried the start again. Still no start, but I no longer get the fuel

pump pulse. I did some other stuff that I didn't monitor carefully,

but after 4 failed starts, the starter connected, and it started

immediately - twice.

But, I don't really think that the tweaking that I did really contrib-

uted to this starting success. As "BkerChuck" mentioned earlier,

I think it's another bad/going bad battery. The reason.

I learned/assumed from the other bad battery, that if the battery

cannot measure up(voltage wise, CCA), you will get no start. The

starter button is merely s switch that throws a relay that's design-

ed to carry the load a starter requires. If you're not packing a load

sufficient to run the starter, it's all or nothing. It's designed not

to grind the starter into the ground when battery power was short

initially.

Yesterday, as I mentioned earlier, after discovering the problem,

I R&R'd the battery, and cleaned all connections. When that had

no real effect, and with the battery reinstalled, I placed it on charge

to gauge its health. The battery showed to be almost fully charged.

I let it remain on charge, with full charge attained within 1 hour.

I think the battery is compromised, and as such, can produce a

number of unpredictable results. I might return in a few minutes,

and have another no-start situation again.

So, I'm thinking about either taking the battery to be tested and

pro-rated for a 3rd replacement, if appropriate. Or, taking the bike

to the dealer for deeper diagnosis. I'm not sure at this point.

At least I'm confident that it seems there is nothing wrong with

any of the lock out switches, the starter, the relay, etc.

But, I guess I really can't even make that statement conclusively.

Any one of those components could be failing intermittently just

as easily as the battery.

I was surprised that I got no fuel pump pulse at this last test. I

guess that might be because sufficient fuel mist/pressure is

still present from my yesterday testing, that additional fuel pump

activity was no longer needed. But, I really don't know.

Thank you "SLK50", "BkerChuck", "RossKean", "Inewlf", and

"hppants" for your contribution(s). And a thank you to anyone

I might have overlooked.

Gary

"Temporarily concluded" I'll update once the true cause is identified.

 

[Fred W]

The fuel pump doesn't wait to run until you press the starter button. The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point.

Are you sure that it isn't the disengaged starter motor that you hear spinning when you press the starter button? If it is, that is unfortunate as it means that the Starter motor will probably have to be removed to fix the bendix.

It could be that the bendix is stuck due to cold/frozen grease. How cold is it there now? Can you warm up the room it is stored in and try to start it again?

Your successful start was reported as I was typing. But I stand by my suggestion as a possibility of what you experienced.

 

[RossKean]

Just out of curiosity, have you had the ignition switch recall done? One set of contacts/wires handles the bike's electrics and the other handles the starting. (if I remember correctly)

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/113791-fjrf0031-ignition-switch/

Intermittent function is possible - at least for a while...

 

[GMAK]

Replies interspersed amongst your comments....

The fuel pump doesn't wait to run until you press the starter button. The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point.

Well, that's an excellent point. And that might solidify my point that

the problem is stemming from a compromised battery. If the battery

is marginal/borderline, it might have enough power to spin the start-

ed, but not enough to engage. I'm not really sure how the fuel pump

works, but your explanation certainly seems more plausible than my

earlier details

Are you sure that it isn't the disengaged starter motor that you hear spinning when you press the starter button? If it is, that is unfortunate as it means that the Starter motor will probably have to be removed to fix the bendix.
It could be that the bendix is stuck due to cold/frozen grease. How cold is it there now? Can you warm up the room it is stored in and try to start it again?

Your successful start was reported as I was typing. But I stand by my suggestions as a possibility of what you experienced.

Yes, all of your assessments seem quite logical. Certainly, if it was

an automobile, that would be my diagnosis also. I just checked the

weather here in Dallas. It's reportedly 78 degrees as this is written.

But, it was damn cold on my 03/04 ride that I mentioned. But, I had

absolutely no starter problem that day.

I think I need this professionally visited. At this point, I don't really

know where the problem is, or if/when it will return. But, i can count

on this. If ridden, and the problem returns, it will certainly make for

a rather unpleasant day, and ride. <g>

As you noticed, I have concluded my conversation temporarily, un-

till I can get a definitive cause/correction of this problem.

Thank you "Fred W" for your contribution.

 

[GMAK]

Just out of curiosity, have you had the ignition switch recall done? One set of contacts/wires handles the bike's electrics and the other handles the starting. (if I remember correctly)
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/113791-fjrf0031-ignition-switch/

Intermittent function is possible - at least for a while...

Yes, it was done by the bikes home dealer(where the bike originated)

I don't guess that means it couldn't possibly be causing a problem

though.

I think "Fred W" has summed up the problem concisely. Funny story

about my ignition switch recall though.

I originally took it to another dealer, armed with my Yamaha letter of

recall. The guy there said - "I wouldn't mess with it if you're not hav-

ing any problem(s)". To which I replied - "Like a parachute"?

silence....

Anyway, they wanted to do the recall in a manner that would've re-

sulted in a different ignition key from the luggage key, despite that

the Yamaha letter specifically stated "one common key conclusion".

I moved on to the original dealer, even though they were much

farther away.

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[hppants]

Fred - if he is hearing the starter spinning but the starter clutch is not engaging, then I believe he has bigger problems than having to remove the starter. I think he has to split the cases to replace that. IIRC, when I disassembled Patriot's Gen 1 motor, that was the absolute very last part that I removed.

That's why I asked my 1st question the way I did.

Let's hope that is not the case.

I'm still betting on battery.