Dead FJR - no starter engage/spin

[GMAK]

The fuel pump doesn't wait to run until you press the starter button. The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point.
Are you sure that it isn't the disengaged starter motor that you hear spinning when you press the starter button? If it is, that is unfortunate as it means that the Starter motor will probably have to be removed to fix the bendix.

It could be that the bendix is stuck due to cold/frozen grease. How cold is it there now? Can you warm up the room it is stored in and try to start it again?

Your successful start was reported as I was typing. But I stand by my suggestion as a possibility of what you experienced.

You know, I thought about your contribution here, and I've decided that I

believe you were probably 100% correct. There would have been absolutely

no reason that a fuel pump would cycle based on pressing the starter button.

That's just plain stupid of me. As you said, that was the electric starter spinn-

ing, but failing to engage the gears to turn the engine.

I am familiar with the bendix apparatus(as it's been called forever), but wasn't

intuitive enough to realize what really was happening. I suppose that if every-

thing(all internal components) were to come to rest at just the exact position,

the bendix mechanism just might fail to engage. But, I think it needs to be

checked professionally.

Thanks again, for your enlightening contribution.

Gary

 

[GMAK]

Fred - if he is hearing the starter spinning but the starter clutch is not engaging, then I believe he has bigger problems than having to remove the starter. I think he has to split the cases to replace that. IIRC, when I disassembled Patriot's Gen 1 motor, that was the absolute very last part that I removed.
That's why I asked my 1st question the way I did.

Let's hope that is not the case.

I'm still betting on battery.

I wouldn't exclude the possibility, but in all my years of UJM ownership,

I have never had, or witnessed a starter failure. Something I certainly

wouldn't have expected from an FJR. If that's the final problem.

 

[GMAK]

1. When you say "no starter engage/spin", what exactly does that mean?
- You can physically hear the electrical starter motor spinning, but the 1300 cc engine is not turning?

- You know that the engine is turning when you engage the starter, but it won't start running on its own?

- You don't hear anything spinning when you press the starter button?

2. If the starter is spinning (you hear the starter motor working when you press the button), is it turning at what you perceive to be a normal speed? In other words, is the starter motor dragging, simulating a dead battery even though you believe the battery to be good?

3. Also, to clarify the "fuel pump" comment, do you mean that when you turn the key to the on position, without pressing the starter button, you hear the fuel pump running from within the fuel tank?

4. If the starter and the engine are spinning, have you checked to see if you have ignition spark at your plugs? Are you 100% sure that you have some fuel in the tank?

5. Finally, when you state that you did the "expected activities" with respect to the switches, does that mean that you jumped them out and attempted to start the bike? And if so, specifically which switches did you jump out?

- clutch

- sidestand

- neutral

With very specific answers to these very specific questions, I'd wager a sandwich that these peeps can diagnose your bike in less than 1 day.

At the time of answering your reply, I was so focused on the spinning noise

being the fuel pump, that I probably didn't absorb your questions completely.

I see now that you were on the right track with your questions. I just couldn't

interpret that the noise I was hearing could have been the electric starter.

I want to apologize to you for that. I didn't intend to speak over your ideas,

when I should have been absorbing your assessment(s).

I am sorry for not following your direction further.

Thanks,

Gary

 

[GMAK]

Fred - if he is hearing the starter spinning but the starter clutch is not engaging, then I believe he has bigger problems than having to remove the starter. I think he has to split the cases to replace that. IIRC, when I disassembled Patriot's Gen 1 motor, that was the absolute very last part that I removed.
That's why I asked my 1st question the way I did.

Let's hope that is not the case.

I'm still betting on battery.

Please see my most recent reply, to your original post.

Gary

 

[BigOgre]

I'm going with Fast Starter Syndrome.

 

[Fred W]

Fred - if he is hearing the starter spinning but the starter clutch is not engaging, then I believe he has bigger problems than having to remove the starter. I think he has to split the cases to replace that. IIRC, when I disassembled Patriot's Gen 1 motor, that was the absolute very last part that I removed.
That's why I asked my 1st question the way I did.

Let's hope that is not the case.

Of course, you are right. I had not fully thought through how the FJR's starter mechanism engages the engine, and was falling back on my past automotive starter experience. Motorcycles generally do not have the bendix mechanisms I alluded to. Instead he motor gear is always mated with its counterpart in the crankcase, where they have sprag clutches fitted, which are supposed to freewheel in one direction (where engine is turning and starter is not), but grab in the other direction (starter moving and engine is not).

I've never heard of an FJR sprag clutch failing, but it has certainly happened plenty on other bikes. Just google term sprag clutch and you'll see how they are supposed to work.

Yes, let's hope that isn't it. But it's still a possibility that the starter clutch (sprag) was gummed up somehow and failed to engage. May be worth doing an early oil change using a different brand of good quality synthetic oil of the minimum cold viscosity rating (like 5w40, or 0w40) to try and flush any gunk out?

 

[Donal]

Are you sure that you what you hear is a spinning starter motor?

I would suspect a 'chattering' starter relay, most likely caused by a bad battery.

When the relay closes it puts an instantaneous load on the battery, the battery voltage drops and the relay opens, the voltage rises until it is high enough to close the relay again - this cycle continues until you let go of the starter button.

Before you do anything else get a known good battery.............

 

[BkerChuck]

Not to beat a dead horse, (battery) but always start with the simplest solution. Remove the battery and get it load tested. If it's breaking down internally it will act all sorts of stupid before it finally quits altogether. Around where I live just about any auto parts store can load test a battery and they don't even charge you for doing it.You haven't mentioned it that I've noticed but what brand of battery are you running? You did post that your first new one was a warranty issue so if you purchased an off brand or generic battery don't assume the second one was substantially better than the first.

I spent a number of years working for a HD dealership in the parts area and sold a whole lot of batteries during my time there. Admittedly a Harley vibrates a whole bunch more than the FJR and beats the living crap out it's parts. I can tell you that in all my time I never saw any aftermarket replacement battery last close to the time the OEM battery would last. There are plenty of good or even great aftermarket manufacturers but when it came to batteries Harley had it down. The original battery in my Buell lasted 9 years and the one in my wife's Dyna SuperGlide almost the same. It sounds as if you've done a fair amount of troubleshooting with the switches so start with the source of the voltage.

 

[hppants]

First to the OP, absolutely no apology needed. I was not offended in any way by your reply, and my questions posted before were certainly not intended to insult you. I merely wanted to find out very specifically what you think you are hearing. I want to help, and I know that others here want to help to. Riding season is fast approaching - we need to get you back in the wind!

I definitely agree with Bikerchuck and most of the others - start simple with a known good battery and work your way from there.

I also agree with Fred in that I've never heard of a starter clutch going bad on an FJR. But if what you are actually hearing is a starter motor spinning at normal speed and NOT engaging the engine (i.e. the crankshaft is NOT turning as observed through the inspection port), then most assuredly that is your problem and it is a big problem to have. You are not there yet in your diagnosis, but when you get there, unscrew the large plastic screw on the right cover of the motor (timing cover), and with the bike in neutral and the side stand up, observe the crankshaft bolt while you press the starter. If the bolt turns, then your starter clutch is good and you can take a deep breath.

Another thing to mention is that if you have a known good battery with good connections all around, and the starter motor is spinning, but dragging (i.e. spinning slow simulating a weak battery even though you know the battery is good), then you likely have a gummed up armature on your starter and/or worn brushes. Now (particularly on the Gen 1 bike), THAT is a fairly common problem on the FJR. The fix for that is one of 3 things:

- Take the starter apart, check the armature, clean everything, and replace the brushes, re-assemble. (couple of nice how-to threads on this forum)

- Contact FJRRay and buy one of his re-built starters.

- Buy a new starter (about $350.00)

Removing and replacing the starter is not a really big deal, but will take you an hour or so.

Echoing Fred's comments regarding the fuel pump. When you turn the key on (regardless of gear selection, starter condition, condition of any neutral/clutch/kickstand switch, etc), if you have good battery voltage, you will hear the fuel pump pressurize up and then stop once it reaches operating pressure. You will hear that from inside the fuel tank.

Once you have a known good battery on the bike, and good clean battery connections all around (including the positive down at the starter, and the ground at the frame), please update us on what is happening. But thinking ahead, if you want to check the clutch and kickstand switch, these can be jumped out (put a wire across the bike wiring terminals and try starting it) to check. REMEMBER to ensure that the bike is in neutral before you try this. I'm not sure how to jump out the neutral safety switch.

The people on this forum can diagnose your bike, and tell you how to fix it. Trust me, "we" (well, not "me" so much) have fried much bigger fish than this. Be patient and try to work methodically. Quite frankly, we might do a better job than your mechanic/dealer. It has happened MORE than once before. That is not a tongue-n-cheek comment. That is fact.

Go back to my original questions and offer anything else you think might be relevant.

 

[12tinker]

Hello Gary,

Guessing battery, starter relay or safety switches ie. neutral, sidestand, or brake lever switch .

Are you squeezing the brake handle? It's ok, I forgot once, Ha.

If so, do you hear the starter relay click and no starter spin? Jump out the large terminals (make sure you're in neutral!), perhaps it's bad.

No starter relay click? Open safety switch circuit somewhere.

Did you ever get a known good battery? What do the headlights or voltmeter do when you push the start button?

Let us know! Don't need to make that trip to the repair shop!

12Tinker

 

[rbentnail]

I'm thinking back to my experiences last year. I posted up about thinking my battery was going dead but later found it to be #4 spider at the very beginning of its death.

And for everyone who has said that the fuel pump does not come on with the kill switch in the "kill engine" position- I call ********! My '07, the same model as the OP's, does cycle the fuel pump immediately upon "key switch on" regardless of kill switch position.

 

[Fred W]

And for everyone who has said that the fuel pump does not come on with the kill switch in the "kill engine" position- I call ********! My '07, the same model as the OP's, does cycle the fuel pump immediately upon "key switch on" regardless of kill switch position.

Can't speak to how it works on a 2nd Gen, but not on a 1st Gen, and not on a 3rd Gen. Might want to double check your remembery on that. It would be weird if only the second Gens were different.

My recollection of the 1st Gen was that if the kill switch was off and you turn key on no fuel pump whirring. But then if you later turn the kill switch to run with the key left on the fuel pump would kick on then.

When I just tested the same thing on my 3rd Gen, no fuel pump whir at key on, and no fuel pump whir when kill switch later moved to run. Obviously it must run later to keep the fuel pressure up or the bike wouldn't run long. Only time the fuel pump would kick on before starting was if kill switch is in run position during key-on.

 

[lnewlf]

the pump on my '06 will NOT cycle with the kill switch off...if I turn the key on with the kill switch on the pump starts and if I then turn the kill switch off before the pump reaches pressure it will stop running.. sorry but this is not ********.. I use this frequently when I want to turn the key on and not have the pump run in order to avoid " fast starter" syndrome...

 

[Constant Mesh]

"The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point."

I'm not sure this is correct.

I don't believe the fuel pressure is being monitored by the system. So, I believe the run time of the pump at key-on is a fixed time controlled by the computer. When the engine is cranked/started the pump runs continuously until engine shutdown.

The fuel pressure regulator is at the pump but I don't believe there's any pressure sensor sending info back to the computer. At key-on the pump runs for a programmed time then it shuts off if the engine is not cranked/started.

The injectors are powered from the same relay as the pump.

 

[Donal]

"The fuel pump should come on and run for a couple of seconds at ignition key on (if kill switch is in run position), and then stops running as soon as the pressure in the fuel rail is satisfied. It will not come on again until the fuel pressure drops below the pressure switch set point."
I'm not sure this is correct.

I don't believe the fuel pressure is being monitored by the system. So, I believe the run time of the pump at key-on is a fixed time controlled by the computer. When the engine is cranked/started the pump runs continuously until engine shutdown.

The fuel pressure regulator is at the pump but I don't believe there's any pressure sensor sending info back to the computer. At key-on the pump runs for a programmed time then it shuts off if the engine is not cranked/started.

The injectors are powered from the same relay as the pump.

I agree it's not being monitored by the 'system' BUT it is controlled by a pressure switch in the pump assembly..........

 

[Constant Mesh]

"I agree it's not being monitored by the 'system' BUT it is controlled by a pressure switch in the pump assembly.........."

I'm skeptical that there's an electrical switch inside the fuel pump assembly which can switch the motor off.

I haven't seen such a switch shown on any wiring schematic.

I believe the computer has complete control of the pump via the relay which also powers the injectors, etc.

 

[BigOgre]

the pump on my '06 will NOT cycle with the kill switch off...if I turn the key on with the kill switch on the pump starts and if I then turn the kill switch off before the pump reaches pressure it will stop running.. sorry but this is not ********.. I use this frequently when I want to turn the key on and not have the pump run in order to avoid " fast starter" syndrome...

This was my M.O. on my '04 also. As one who historically never used the kill switch much, after learning about FSS I used it constantly, especially in the garage whenever I wanted to check mileage, etc. As most probably know, not pressurizing the fuel rail when not starting the engine is a hopefully preventative step towards avoiding FSS.

Along those lines, and not sure how this might help, but after purchasing my '15 I continued using this same technique. Sometime last year this came up in a conversation and I clearly remember Ionbeam commenting that due to changes in the Gen IIIs, the kill switch will no longer be of help in that regard as it was on the previous Gens. I'd fall woefully short trying to repeat his explanation nor can I remember if this exchange was here on the Forum or in person. In other words, I can't back up this claim at all.

 

[Fred W]

I think Constant Mesh is right. I just read through the "features" section of the manual and there is no mention of a pressure switch.

There is a pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail on 1st Gens, with a return hose back to the tank. On 2nd Gens and later they moved the regulator to be part of the fuel pump assembly.

So, it is possible that they just run the pump continuously after startup and the pressure regulator deals with the excess pressure. That said, it may be that the OP did hear the fuel pump when pressing the starter button. Normally we can't hear it because the starter motor is much louder.

 

[Fred W]

To the OP, here is what I would recommend: Go out to your bike and with the kill switch in the run position, turn on the key and listen for the sound of the fuel pump. It should run for about 2 seconds after you turn the key on. Now compare the loudness of that sound to what you remember having heard previously when you pressed the starter button and the bike wouldn't start.

Was it about the same? The fuel pump should be the same loudness whenever it is running, which is not that loud at all.

If it was significantly louder then it was probably the starter motor as theorized earlier.

If it sounds about the same loudness then your no-start problem was most likely the battery is bad or the starter relay did not engage to supply power to the starter motor. With a bad battery, the solenoid of the relay will still actuate, and there is some clicking noises, but it may not have enough juice to turn the motor over. I'd suspect the relay over the battery since a relay could be flaky and work intermittently, but bad batteries usually do not cure themselves.

 

[RossKean]

I'm not sure but I don't think that the ignition switch is ruled out yet either. Although it was apparently replaced.