Do you “Hang Off” your FJR ??????

[palerider]

..., except it's damping, not dampening. That'd be when one wets their pants....

Thanks for the correction. My spelling prolly won't get any better as I dampen my neck with these beers.

Your spelling would be better if you'd learn to pay attantion. :assassin:

 

[FJRBluesman]

..., except it's damping, not dampening. That'd be when one wets their pants....

Thanks for the correction. My spelling prolly won't get any better as I dampen my neck with these beers.

Your spelling would be better if you'd learn to pay attantion. :assassin:

Your boath ok. I think theirs a speling n grammer thred some where esle.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Whell mie but iches now...

Dweebs!!!!

:yahoo:

:jester:

 

[Fred W]

Actually, both damping and dampening are correct and mean the same thing. The shocks in a suspension system are called dampeners, or alternately dampers, FWIW.

But I want to get back to Howie's keen observation that Toecutter claims to improve his suspension performance by weighting the pegs. I need to ask: How much weighting, or standing, are you doing Toe? When I first read your claim I was also, like Howie, suspecting that you were saying that the lower center of gravity would result in less work for the suspension, which wouldn't be true (the suspension knows not where the weight is positioned vertically) but would be still advantageous for other reasons.

However your subsequent claim of using your legs as dampers (sic) has me wondering how far off of the seat you are lifting that butt or you'rn.

The reason I ask is because, while I do weight my pegs (during cornering), I never "stand up" like a dirt biker. My butt always remains somewhat planted, or in contact with the seat, which has me wondering how much advantage there could be for the suspenders (or dampers, if you will).

 

[RadioHowie]

Actually, both damping and dampening are correct ad cn mean the same thing, The shocks in a suspension system are dampeners, or alternatively dampers, FWIW.
But I want to get back to Howie's keen observation that Toecutter claims to improve his suspension performance by weighting the pegs. I need to ask: How much weighting, or standing, are you doing Toe? When I first read your claim I was also, like Howie, suspecing that you were saying that the lower center of gravity would result in less work for the suspension, which wouldn't be true (the suspension knows not where the weight is positioned vertically) but would be still advantageous for other reasons.

However your subsequent claim of using your legs as dampers (sic) has me wondering; how far off of the seat you are lifting that butt or you'rn.

The reason I ask is because, while I do weight my pegs (during cornering), I never "stand up" like a dirt biker. My butt always remains somewhat planted, or in contact with the seat, which has me wondering how much advantage there could be for the suspenders (or dampers, if you will).

AND, while the wheels are reacting to road imperfections, the rider is reacting to the movement of the frame/motor/body of bike that is moving from forces transmitted from the wheels through the suspension to the rest of the bike. Any damping/dampening you're doing with your knees is to react to the movement of the bike AFTER the suspension has transmitted the road imperfections from the unsprung portions of the bike, i.e., wheels, brakes, swingarm. In other words, secondary movement. The suspension has already done its job before your knees start doing theirs.

The only thing you're doing is unburdening the upper portion of your body of the road imperfections that've actually made it through the suspension to the sprung portion, which includes the rider. VERY important in dirt riding, since it accomplishes two things....it lets you maintain control over the majority of your own weight, thereby keeping the bike under control, and it helps prevent bump-induced spinal fusion by compressing your vertebrae catastrophically. However, doing so doesn't ease the burden on the suspension one whit. The forks, shock(s) and springs are reacting to the same amount of weight of you and your bike, combined, whether your sitting or standing.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

The forks, shock(s) and springs are reacting to the same amount of weight of you and your bike, combined, whether your sitting or standing.

I don't know Howie... my conventional wisdom alarm is going off. I know the force witll eventually be transmitted to the bike, but you're saying that it makes no difference if the rider is seated or on the balls of his/her feet and not just planted?

 

[exskibum]

I KNOW we argued this same **** at least a year or two ago. I'm with Toe on the approach he mentions. I move on my seat. I use my legs. Don't much give a **** if anyone else wants to label it or belittle it. I'm pretty confident in what I do, and am past being stupid enough to get into a race on the street to prove I can ride my ride in the twisties.

We're fortunate to have some pretty good FJR riders who ride together out here, I KNOW who can ride, and I enjoy riding with them. Some move on the seat and pegs more than others. To each his own, but there are some pretty knowledgeable sources out there in street/track schools and books that don't have a problem AT ALL with those of us who move on the pegs and improve the motorcycle's physics for carving turns by doing it. That doesn't mean dragging knees on the street, either. My number one reason is to give myself more margin of error in case the unexpected happens in that blind corner. I try to set up for the escape route or for the suddenly decreasing radius corner, and being in position to go there NOW just makes sense to me.

Not sure about easing the burden (if we're going to flog the semantics there), but if someone can't feel the difference in the way the bike handles and its stability with one or the other peg weighted and your shoulders inside the turn, etc., then . . . well . . . don't do it**.

** But you'd almost have to be numb not to be able to notice the difference if you're paying attention. Given the same speed into a blind corner -- if one rider is on the inside peg and the second is straight up when the suddenly decreasing radius surprises them, it's going to take the first one much less time and effort to do what is necessary to avoid that offroading excursion from going wide.

 

[RadioHowie]

The forks, shock(s) and springs are reacting to the same amount of weight of you and your bike, combined, whether your sitting or standing.

I don't know Howie... my conventional wisdom alarm is going off. I know the force witll eventually be transmitted to the bike, but you're saying that it makes no difference if the rider is seated or on the balls of his/her feet and not just planted?

I fully understand that using ones knees as "shock absorbers" will affect the movement transmitted to the rider's upper body, but I don't (or can't) see how that will reduce the burden on the suspension. That's the only thing that makes me say "HUH?"

You can obviously dampen the effects of the movement above your knees, but the suspension has already reacted to tthe road imperfections based on the combined weight of the bike and rider. Shifting your weight to your feet from your butt ain't gonna change the weight the suspension has to deal with, is it? It's only going to affect the movement of the weight above the shock absorbers, in this case being the bulk of your body above your knees.

I'm absolutely NOT questioning that shifting weight improves handling. Hell, just watch a sidehack race if you need proof.

I just questioned the "reduces the burden on the suspension" portion of Toe's statement. Didn't mean pick any one's scab.

 

[noob]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.

They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

When I see someone leaning off, I know it means that, for their speed, they are leaned over less, to round the corner, then if they weren't leaning off. That doesn't mean they are or are not at max lean angle... just that it is less lean angle then if they weren't hanging off.

Sadly the police don't really understand this, hanging off is probably an 'instant ticket' for some of them...

 

[RadioHowie]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.
They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

Or is it to prevent being thrown off the horse on the "upstroke"? Or their spines being shattered?

 

[noob]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.
They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

Or is it to prevent being thrown off the horse on the "upstroke"? Or their spines being shattered?

sheeesus I don't know, I'm not a jockey, just making this sheet up as I go along ya know

no now really, my vote is for 'helping the horse to run', when we get a jockey in here we'll know for sure

 

[palerider]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.
They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

Or is it to prevent being thrown off the horse on the "upstroke"? Or their spines being shattered?

sheeesus I don't know, I'm not a jockey, just making this sheet up as I go along ya know

no now really, my vote is for 'helping the horse to run', when we get a jockey in here we'll know for sure

I have jockey shorts. Does that count?

 

[RadioHowie]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.
They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

Or is it to prevent being thrown off the horse on the "upstroke"? Or their spines being shattered?

sheeesus I don't know, I'm not a jockey, just making this sheet up as I go along ya know

no now really, my vote is for 'helping the horse to run', when we get a jockey in here we'll know for sure

I have jockey shorts. Does that count?

Only if what's in your shorts is as small as what's riding that racehorse. :****:

 

[SacramentoMike]

Well, I'm not a jockey, but I play one on TV. Oh, wait, I don't. Never mind.

But about that whole "hanging off" thing, and yes, I know it's been beaten to death, but since "a picture is worth a thousand words," I'll just reprise JB's photo of the immortal Lee Parks and say: "look at it." Even though at this point in the thread, I'd have to post quite a few pictures to equal the output so far.

Lee Parks demonstrates leaning off on a student's bike.

Just make an imaginary line from the contact patch right up through the bike. It looks like about a 60o angle to the road. Now look at the picture again and try to imagine a line from the road up through the tire that would go right through the center of gravity of the whole mass of the bike and Mr. Parks. (I haven't taken the course, so I call him Mr. Parks.) So that's what, 50, maybe even 45 degrees? So if he was sitting straight up and down on the seat, right in line with the bike, the bike would have to be at that much sharper angle to make the same turn at the same speed.

Seems pretty obvious. Keeping the bike more upright equals less scraping parts, more rubber on the road, safer turn for the speed. Leaning is how you do it.

 

[madmike2]

I hang off my bike, even with the Russell Daylong seat. Of course, at my current girth, I don't have much choice....and....I tend to hang off both sides at once. :blink:

Seriously, if one is going to perform this technique, practice, practice, practice. One needs to shift around the tank smoothly so one doesn't upset the suspension and get one's self positioned for the upcoming corner, then be prepared to shift/rotate/adjust for the next corner. I was taught to rotate myself around the gas tank (actually, using the gas filler as the center point for the rotation). That technique tends to rotate my upper body weight forward helping to load the front tire/forks.

Now that I'm getting a bit "longer-in-the-tooth" I'm not as active on the bike as I once was and I don't ride at a pace where it would make that much difference. If I feel above 80% (emotions and awareness) and ride more briskly, I still shift to one side by positioning my upper body forward and attempt to line the center of my shoulders in the space between the hand grip and the stem nut.

Any movement of the rider on the bike should be done smoothly, not suddenly, to keep the vehicle stable.

One street riding course I took didn't want us shifting our weight but the purpose of that workshop was to teach control of the bike. I noticed that they were having the touring bike riders shift their shoulders toward the inside of the turn.

This has certainly been an interesting thread to read and follow. Hopefully owners are learning new techniques to try this year.

 

[Fred W]

I hang off my bike, even with the Russell Daylong seat. Of course, at my current girth, I don't have much choice....and....I tend to hang off both sides at once. :blink:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[SCRider]

You can obviously dampen the effects of the movement above your knees, but the suspension has already reacted to the road imperfections based on the combined weight of the bike and rider. Shifting your weight to your feet from your butt ain't gonna change the weight the suspension has to deal with, is it? It's only going to affect the movement of the weight above the shock absorbers, in this case being the bulk of your body above your knees.

When hitting a bump, the suspension also has to deal with the acceleration forces (f=ma) of moving the rider's upper body up the same amount as the mass of the bike moved up. If the rider's weight is off the seat and the legs keep the upper body from moving upward, then the suspension didn't see the forces required to move that weight upward (in my case, a lot of weight ).

 

[Toecutter]

Hopefully owners are learning new techniques to try this year.

Hopefully, in a very controlled and subdued environment, until they get skillful and confident.

We have had this discussion before, which succeeded in changing Andrew's mind on the issue....

 

[palerider]

Maybe one way to think about it is .... a jockey on a horse.
They don't sit on the horse, during the race anyway. Their butts are off the horse and their knees act like shock absorbers. So the horse doesn't carry the 'dead weight' of the rider. The way the rider rides, helps the horse to run.

Or is it to prevent being thrown off the horse on the "upstroke"? Or their spines being shattered?

sheeesus I don't know, I'm not a jockey, just making this sheet up as I go along ya know

no now really, my vote is for 'helping the horse to run', when we get a jockey in here we'll know for sure

I have jockey shorts. Does that count?

Only if what's in your shorts is as small as what's riding that racehorse. :****:

You mean the size of a jockey?

:dribble:

 

[madmike2]

Hopefully owners are learning new techniques to try this year.

Hopefully, in a very controlled and subdued environment, until they get skillful and confident.

We have had this discussion before, which succeeded in changing Andrew's mind on the issue....

Exactly, Bob. That's why the following sentence from my post leads to a more detailed example:

Seriously, if one is going to perform this technique, practice, practice, practice. One needs to shift around the tank smoothly so one doesn't upset the suspension and.......

The "key" is practice, practice, practice.

Like any other safety or proficiency tool one adds to his/her mental and physical (muscle memory) tool-bag collection, whether it is emergency braking, swerving or U-turns, a rider should start at very slow speeds (for example: parking lot) and gradually increase the speeds at which one performs that maneuver. Then the rider can take that new habit to the street and gradually assimilate it into their normal riding habits. Mistakes in judgment can be expensive or deadly, hence the suggestion to practice.

I assume if someone intends to ride in a more "spirited" mode, they are willing to take classes at track days to hone their skill set with input and instruction from an unbiased source.