Does Hi-Viz gear really make you more visible to other motorists?

[Fred W]

Hey Gixxer...The SANE people knew you were kidding. Holy Hell. Hunters wear Blaze Orange for a frigging reason! AND every now and then, one of us still takes a round.

Exactly the point. Target fixation,

Dear hunters are much safer. They are fully camoed out and undetectable. I have had several hunters stray by and don't have a freakin clue I am 20 feet away.

But Dave,

You aren't standing in the middle of the road, or a firing range, when you are sitting in your deer stand or duck blind.

SANE people will take whatever precautions they deem prudent to protect themselves from harm.

Other perfectly SANE people will make up (illogical) excuses why their particular chosen habits are the "best ones" even flying in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Sanity is not the real question here. Lets talk real stuff, not emotions, eh?

 

[SouthernCruizer]

Hey Gixxer...The SANE people knew you were kidding. Holy Hell. Hunters wear Blaze Orange for a frigging reason! AND every now and then, one of us still takes a round.

Exactly the point. Target fixation,

Dear hunters are much safer. They are fully camoed out and undetectable. I have had several hunters stray by and don't have a freakin clue I am 20 feet away.

But Dave,

You aren't standing in the middle of the road, or a firing range, when you are sitting in your deer stand or duck blind.

SANE people will take whatever precautions they deem prudent to protect themselves from harm.

Other perfectly SANE people will make up (illogical) excuses why their particular chosen habits are the "best ones" even flying in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Sanity is not the real question here. Lets talk real stuff, not emotions, eh?

as close to official as i can find in <15 second search....

Motorcycle Safety Target Fixation & Motorcycle CrashesTarget fixation occurs when you go where you look. It is a phenomenon that especially occurs when riding a two-wheeled vehicle but also happens when driving a vehicle. Sounds simple, and it is, but the implications can be enormous. It plays an important role when faced with an immediate threat or danger. Imagine you are riding your motorcycle along a road approaching an intersection. A car comes to a stop at the stop sign and you have no stop sign and continue through the intersection. All of a sudden the stopped car accelerates and enters the intersection directly into your path. Quick - what do you do?

If you are honest with yourself and break-down the sequence in which you reacted the first thing you must have done was look at the car. If it were otherwise you would not have seen the car start to enter the intersection. Keep in mind that this is a sudden and unexpected event. Next thing you do is probably slam on your brakes while looking at the car. The target fixation phenomenon kicks in and the motorcycle tends to move toward the car. Even the driver of the vehicle may look up and see you too late and the target fixation phenomenon also forces the driver of the car to turn in your direction - why - because he is looking at you - target fixation.

LINK>> https://utahbikelaw.com/motorcycle-safety/291-target-fixation-a-motorcycle-crashes

 

[Fred W]

Thanks Jay,

I do know about "target fixation" as it applies to a 'cyclist in peril, but isn't that an entirely different phenomenon?

In that case the rider fixates on an object and his conscious mind believes that it represents an extreme hazard to his/her well-being, so they cannot, or will not break their lock on that object,and eventually end up hitting it.

I don't really see how that translates to a driver in a car that sees a motorcyclist with TOXIC HiViz gear on.

 

[mcatrophy]

Dave,
Do you have anything (other than anecdotal) to show the effect of "target fixation?" I'd like to see something, as I've never seen any studies done before on this often recited phenomenon.

A little surprised you need this, but anyway, try this one. Assuming you are referring to motorcycling, not deer hunting

.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Hey Gixxer...The SANE people knew you were kidding. Holy Hell. Hunters wear Blaze Orange for a frigging reason! AND every now and then, one of us still takes a round.

Exactly the point. Target fixation,

Dear hunters are much safer. They are fully camoed out and undetectable. I have had several hunters stray by and don't have a freakin clue I am 20 feet away.

But Dave,

You aren't standing in the middle of the road, or a firing range, when you are sitting in your deer stand or duck blind.

SANE people will take whatever precautions they deem prudent to protect themselves from harm.

Other perfectly SANE people will make up (illogical) excuses why their particular chosen habits are the "best ones" even flying in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Sanity is not the real question here. Lets talk real stuff, not emotions, eh?

Target fixation was a little ploy on words considering the subject matter. As far as emotional not even close to that. Just giving an apposing view is all. I just don't put a whole lot merit in bright color schemes. If it works for folks great. More power to them.

I remember one day standing in the field behind my house in NH one day. I had my dress clothes on, light brown cacky's with a blue shirt on. I spent 45 min's watching 9 deer walk through the field from end to end and they never noticed me. I learned a valuable lesson that day. It didn't matter what I had on to wear. Now If I would had happened to be wearing Camo my mind would have said to me it must have been the Camo. "That's why they didn't see me". But that was not the case.

Now after saying all that I hope the hell I don't become a statistic. I don't want to prove you guy's and gals right.

Dave

 

[08FJR4ME]

Dave,
Do you have anything (other than anecdotal) to show the effect of "target fixation?" I'd like to see something, as I've never seen any studies done before on this often recited phenomenon.

A little surprised you need this, but anyway, try this one. Assuming you are referring to motorcycling, not deer hunting

.

I am very aware of what target fixation is. Learned it in motorcycle safety school and in the real world out on the streets. But thanks for the refresher.

Dave

 

[Excaleng]

Just to add a little more spice to this discussion have a look at this from a highly experienced UK trial lawyer who delights in taking on difficult and demanding motorcycle cases.

https://www.whitedalton.co.uk/motorbike-blog/2011/10/should-riders-wear-dayglow-jackets-and-white-helmets/

Should riders wear dayglow jackets and white helmets?

by Andrew Dalton on Oct.28, 2011, under Andrew Dalton

As a starting point, I do not wear a flourescent jacket or a white helmet unless I am working by the side of the road at a scene visit so I can compare how drivers react to my usual riding gear of black Alpinestars textiles or leather, Rukka textiles or the Black Aerostich and compare this directly to the same rider and same bike in white lid and dayglow. So here is my considered opinion.

If a driver cannot see a red Multistrada with auxillary lights with a six foot tall man perched on top of it then a full set of fairy light and a flashing beacon on my head is going to make no difference. However when I ride dressed like a pretend policeman other drivers seem more aware of my presence because their driving styles change. I think this is because they are unsure as to whether or not I am a Police motorcyclist who can do terrible things to their license.

The next question is Is this an advantage? and there I think it is a mixed blessing. Cars get out of the way because they dont want what they perceive as a bike cop behind them but their driving becomes a bit unpredictable as they attempt to drive by the book and their forward progress becomes much slower. An unpredictable car is a harder prospect to pass than a driver who is driving at normal speeds and predictably.

So I have come to a balanced decision. Most of the time I think high visibility stuff is not much of an aid to safer motorcycling (except for learner bikes which travel slower than ordinary traffic flow) so I dont wear it. It does have an effect, but I dont think the overall effect makes riding any safer. it is a matter of personal choice (at least so long as the EU keep their beaks out of it Id have thought they had bigger issues to deal with). The Highway Code recommends it and I have seen a couple of attempts made in Court to shift some blame onto a motorcyclist who is not wearing high visibility gear but these have got precisely nowhere as it cannot stand this simple cross examination -

Q So you did not see the motorcycle?

A No

Q The big motorcycle with a rider on it which had its lights on?

A No

Q But you say you would have seen it had the riders helmet or jacket had been a different colour

A I dont know

Q But the bike was not invisible, was it?

A No

Q And it was there, wasnt it

A Yes

Q So the riders clothing made no difference?

A No

In fairness by this point the Judge has usually told me to move on because he has already dismissed the argument that the rider is to blame for not wearing high visibility clothing. As a general rule not following the Highway Code is only a factor in blame. It does not end the argument, and should only be regarded as a starting point.

 

[Patriot]

I think the hiviz helmet make the most impression these days...

besides, my tourmaster Sonora Summer Jacket I've had for 2 years is in fine functional shape, but quite faded

 

[Fred W]

I remember one day standing in the field behind my house in NH one day. I had my dress clothes on, light brown cacky's with a blue shirt on. I spent 45 min's watching 9 deer walk through the field from end to end and they never noticed me. I learned a valuable lesson that day. It didn't matter what I had on to wear. Now If I would had happened to be wearing Camo my mind would have said to me it must have been the Camo. "That's why they didn't see me". But that was not the case.

As I said earlier, I believe that what makes HiViz more visible is its contrast to whatever background it is against. Deer are colorblind, and don't have very acute vision either, so your khaki pants and blue shirt is almost as good as camo, just as long as you aren't moving. They do sense movement very well, and have been known to chase down a motorcycle and smash into it just for fun. DAMHIKT

While I don't have a reference at my fingertips, I know that I've read a study that concluded that the same phenomenon is true for motorcycles, to a lesser extent perhaps since most motorists aren't colorblind. A motorcycle is more visible when there is relative motion between the cyclist and the background. So as an example, a bike riding past a car at an intersection is easier for them to to see than one coming head-on. Having greatly contrasting colors may help in situations where there is no relative motion to the background and the car driver isn't color-blind.

Dave,
Do you have anything (other than anecdotal) to show the effect of "target fixation?" I'd like to see something, as I've never seen any studies done before on this often recited phenomenon.

A little surprised you need this, but anyway, try this one. Assuming you are referring to motorcycling, not deer hunting

.

I am very aware of what target fixation is. Learned it in motorcycle safety school and in the real world out on the streets. But thanks for the refresher.

Dave

+1 - As it relates to the motorcyclist in the example, the thing being called "target fixation" is a description of a rider "freezing up" due to fear of the consequences, and so not reacting properly. So, I think that we all understand what the term means in that context.

My question about "target fixation" was more in regards to whether a motorist not in any fear or danger would actually "fixate" on a brightly colored object, or flashing brake light, and steer towards, or into it like a moth to a flame.

This is an often referenced "phenomenon", but I'm not sure of its reality. There is none of the underlying fear and anxiety that causes what we call target fixation for the new rider. This may be one of those situations where, if you repeat something often enough it becomes accepted as a fact.

Just because someone happened to have had a flashy light and/or a HiViz jacket and some bone headed or drunken driver ran into you doesn't mean that they were actually attracted to those things. Just that those measures didn't work as a deterrent in that case.

Just to add a little more spice to this discussion have a look at this from a highly experienced UK trial lawyer who delights in taking on difficult and demanding motorcycle cases.

https://www.whitedalton.co.uk/motorbike-blog/2011/10/should-riders-wear-dayglow-jackets-and-white-helmets/

snipped content

This is certainly a well reasoned and expressed opinion, but I don't see any evidence other than his anecdotal accounts. It's OK to make up his own mind about the effectiveness of bright colors based on that, but I don't see t being particularly persuasive to others.

One thing that he did mention is that in the UK the police wear HiViz jackets and White helmets. Although that may also be true in some areas, this is not necessarily true in the US. The few motor officers we have in this part of the US ride in shirtsleeves in the summer heat (blue or green uniforms) and wear black leather jackets when it's cooler. I suspect that this is true in the majority of US States and municipalities. So, at least here, there is no ambiguous message being sent to other motorists.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone to weigh the available evidence and make a conscious decision not to wear HiViz. The same way that people in this state can choose not to wear a helmet. I do like it better when the people making those decisions have all of the evidence available to make it from.

BTW If anyone thinks that this topic is too simplistic or INSANE to be worthy of discussion, please feel free to skip over the topic in the future.

 

[Top_Speed1]

Personally I think it is worth wearing, I don't own any [yet] but it's in my future attire plans.

My main reason for putting in HID in my headlights was to be seen (scene) more so than the dim stock halogens. I've been told by a vast amount of fello bikers that "I stick out".... dats jus what I intended.

 

[Excaleng]

So to summarise what I have taken from this well presented discussion;

Q. Does Hi-Viz gear really make you more visible to other motorists?

1. To some, yes.

2. To others, No

To those it does is it a benefit to the rider?

3. To those who respond appropriately, yes

4. To those who do not respond appropriately, No

Which leads me to believe there is probably a nett benefit to wearing hi-viz but how significant that is will depend on how and where you ride.

For info I ride a blue FJR with reflector panels on the cases, wear a white helmet and a predominantly black jacket with hi-viz inserts. In the UK that can occasionally wake car drivers up thinking I may be an off duty/unmarked police rider.

It works for me so that's what I do.

 

[ionbeam]

Over the last few years we have been going Hi Viz. A quick economical way to get into the Viz biz is to go to a work uniform business such as Work 'N Gear and get a shell (thin coat) or vest. I have a wicked bright shell with reflective inserts that I wear over my normal riding stuff. It is inexpensive enough to be replaceable when it gets tired and lets me wear my armored riding stuff underneath.

The side benefit of the shell is state work crews and police wave at me like I'm family

I do really think that it has prevented a couple of police stops last year due to mistaken identity.

 

[mcatrophy]

...As it relates to the motorcyclist in the example, the thing being called "target fixation" is a description of a rider "freezing up" due to fear of the consequences, and so not reacting properly. So, I think that we all understand what the term means in that context.

My question about "target fixation" was more in regards to whether a motorist not in any fear or danger would actually "fixate" on a brightly colored object, or flashing brake light, and steer towards, or into it like a moth to a flame.

...

This is something of a semantic point.

A rider in total, comfortable, control will not target fixate.

A rider who thinks he is going off the road will fixate on that lamp post/tree that he doesn't want to hit, and will hit it head on.

On a normal ride, try keeping looking at a bit of ironwork on the roadway. You WILL ride over it (or possibly just avoid it at the last moment by jerking the bars), even if you want to steer round it. That's non-threatening, not "frozen", but I would call it target fixation.

I don't think it likely a motorist will fixate on a rider's hi-viz kit. In any case, car drivers are much less likely to suffer from hitting what they're looking at (ever seen drivers rubber-necking an accident in the opposite carriageway?). They tend to hit what they're not looking at

.

I'm also sure in the UK we have reached hi-viz saturation. Any construction worker, postmen, all police (motorcycle, car or foot), even newspaper boys, all have hi-viz. So, now we all mentally ignore hi-viz, because it's become "normal".

In at least partial agreement with other posters here, one of my reasons for not wearing hi-viz is that of being mistaken for a police motorcyclist, this can lead to (even more) erratic behaviour.

Anyway, many of the poseurs wear hi-viz, and I don't want to be associated with them

.

A side-note: I understand France now has a law requiring a certain area of a motorcyclist's jacket to be reflective. But, in a typical French way, it's officially not being enforced at the moment.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Personally I think it is worth wearing, I don't own any [yet] but it's in my future attire plans.
My main reason for putting in HID in my headlights was to be seen (scene) more so than the dim stock halogens. I've been told by a vast amount of fello bikers that "I stick out".... dats jus what I intended.

Hey Where you bin bro?

I think we beat this dog enough.

Dave

 

[Knifemaker]

Yes, target fixation can cause non indangered motorists to drive towards bright lights. This taken from the fact of the police noticing the oddly high number of cars that crash into their squad cars when they have pulled another car over.

Even with lights flashing drivers still seem to veer towards police cars that are pulled to the side of the road.

This is one of the reasons many states have laws that require you to move into the next lane when approaching emergency vehicles.

I can attest to this phenomena from living in the city. Crossing the street I sometimes paused at the center yellow line to wait for an oncoming car to pass. I could actually see the car veer slightly towards me. Most drivers of course correct this enough not to hit you, but they do seem to move towards you initially.

 

[Fred W]

Yes, target fixation can cause non indangered motorists to drive towards bright lights. This taken from the fact of the police noticing the oddly high number of cars that crash into their squad cars when they have pulled another car over.
Even with lights flashing drivers still seem to veer towards police cars that are pulled to the side of the road.

This is one of the reasons many states have laws that require you to move into the next lane when approaching emergency vehicles.

I can attest to this phenomena from living in the city. Crossing the street I sometimes paused at the center yellow line to wait for an oncoming car to pass. I could actually see the car veer slightly towards me. Most drivers of course correct this enough not to hit you, but they do seem to move towards you initially.

Interesting.

Do you know by any chance if this has always been the case? Or is this a more recent phenomenon since the advent of the hyper-bright LED type police lights? I know that on more than one occasion coming up on an accident or pullover at night when it is pitch dark and my eyes have adjust to the low ambient light that I find those bright, blue strobe lights to be blinding, and have trained myself to look away. I wonder if it is the high intensity strobing that causes the effect, or some other distraction factor (like being blinded or looking away)?

That concern was actually the main reason that I wired an on/off switch into my Whelen flashing 3rd brake light, though I have never actually used it to disable the light.

 

[Top_Speed1]

Personally I think it is worth wearing, I don't own any [yet] but it's in my future attire plans.

My main reason for putting in HID in my headlights was to be seen (scene) more so than the dim stock halogens. I've been told by a vast amount of fello bikers that "I stick out".... dats jus what I intended.

Hey Where you bin bro?

I think we beat this dog enough.

Dave

Brotha Dave- goona be tipping one with you at some rides this summer! I'm penciled in for CFR and NERDS (so far) and wanna get in a spring ride as well. U better B There!

Yes, target fixation can cause non indangered motorists to drive towards bright lights. This taken from the fact of the police noticing the oddly high number of cars that crash into their squad cars when they have pulled another car over.
Even with lights flashing drivers still seem to veer towards police cars that are pulled to the side of the road.

This is one of the reasons many states have laws that require you to move into the next lane when approaching emergency vehicles.

I can attest to this phenomena from living in the city. Crossing the street I sometimes paused at the center yellow line to wait for an oncoming car to pass. I could actually see the car veer slightly towards me. Most drivers of course correct this enough not to hit you, but they do seem to move towards you initially.

Interesting.

Do you know by any chance if this has always been the case? Or is this a more recent phenomenon since the advent of the hyper-bright LED type police lights? I know that on more than one occasion coming up on an accident or pullover at night when it is pitch dark and my eyes have adjust to the low ambient light that I find those bright, blue strobe lights to be blinding, and have trained myself to look away. I wonder if it is the high intensity strobing that causes the effect, or some other distraction factor (like being blinded or looking away)?

That concern was actually the main reason that I wired an on/off switch into my Whelen flashing 3rd brake light, though I have never actually used it to disable the light.

I'm with u Freddie Mercury

Actually I listen to you sooo much that I purchased and installed the same Whelen LED and controller (per yur post awhile back). Works just as u said and the reason why I did it was visibility- SAFETY.... I think that's kinda why this thread was all initiated, well maybe in a secondary kinda way.

 

[Fred W]

SAFETY.... I think that's kinda why this thread was all initiated, well maybe in a secondary kinda way.

No, it is the primary reason alright. Nobody wants to look all dorky or like a poseur if there is no real safety benefit.

 

[Top_Speed1]

Visibility, Safety... all related but I def won't think you look dorky in ur hi-vis stuff. I might think you actually look smart

 

[rogdeb]

One could also say that some moronic cagers will target fixate on Hi-Vis clothing, then black would work best.

See below

Of note though --- in my "work" experience, and the experience of fellow work mates over the years, hi-viz works during daylight. Just beware of drunk drivers at night who are actually attracted to hi-viz . I have had first hand experience of this phenomenon. I'm not knocking hi-viz though.

Yes! I knew that this would come up. It always does. It's probably a huge load of nonsense though, since nobody has ever proven, established, or produced one bit of actual proof that this actually happens, yet there is endless anecdotal testimony, which is essentially worthless BTW, that drunks (or other mindless individuals) are somehow drawn like fireflies to the brightly colored jackets..

The fact that someone is so stone drunk at to hit flashing police lights does not prove that they were actually attracted to them, as many of the cases suppose. "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is the Latin description of that logical fallacy. All too common in modern thinking. Sometmes drunks just crash into brightly lit stuff because they are too drunk. Not because they are attracted to it.

Please do not take this as an assault on your post. I was actually waiting for that to be introduced, because I've heard it so many times before.

I'd still like to see some sort of actual evidence, weak or otherwise, that wearing bright colors will induce a problem, or is not a positive.

Actual evidence -- written somewhere ?? Don't have it Fred

My post was based on my experiences from only two incidents at night time work set-ups that involved me and the crew I worked with. Our high-viz and flashing light warnings on a main road were like a bug zapper to a group of moths. Fortunately, the drunk ******* who ran into our set-up wasn't also smoking, as he might have ignited the gasoline that ran down the manhole we were working in.

A good thread though - and I didn't take your post as an assault