FJRF003.0: Ignition Failures on FJRs

[ionbeam]

... The 0.7 volt drop would yield 17.5mW of power loss. ...

Sorry, 0.7 volts times 28 amps = 19.6 watts, not insignificant.
What we need to do is measure the voltage drop at the switch itself to see what it really is. (I'm not in a position to do that at the moment, I may try in a few days.)

Thanks mcatrophy! I was in a big hurry when I posted that, which is why I asked for a check of my numbers.

Yes indeedie, ~20 watts is a LOT of power and will generate lots of heat in such a small area.

As noted in my earlier (somewhat flawed) posting, my '04 FJR drops 0.6 to 0.8 volts between the battery and the wiring after the ignition switch. Also, the 28 amps was just a ball park figure, I would have to use a shunt resistor to measure the actual running current. Any one with a Gen II want to volunteer for an amp test?

 

[Rondo777]

1) 2006 AE

2) 8500 miles

3) Failed while riding

4) Wire pulled out

5) Gilbert AZ - Ride Now

6) Part took 7 days to get, I hot wired Bike with Toggle switch so it was only at dealer for 1 day

7) Paid for by Yamaha (Still Under factory warranty) 10 months since bought new. Also have YES

8) The only accessory is a ZUMO 550 hooked up directly to the Battery

9) I now have 2 keys. Not happy about that. I just got off of the phone with YAMAHA customer

service and they are calling the dealership to arrange for me to bring the bike back in order

to have the lock cylinders swapped so that I'm back to 1 key

*EDIT* YAMAHA JUST CALLED ME BACK AFTER TALKING TO MY DEALER. I AM BRINGING MY FJR BACK

TO DEALER TO HAVE THE LOCK CYLINDER SWAPPED FROM MY OLD INGNITION SO THAT I WILL

ONLY HAVE 1 KEY. YAMAHA IS PAYING FOR THIS AND TOLD ME THAT IF MY SUCKASS DEALER

WOULD HAVE ASKED IN THE FIRST PLACE THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE SAME RESPONSE.

YAMAHA APPOLOGIZED FOR ME HAVING TO CALL AT ALL ON THIS AND SAID THIS WAS DEFF THE

DEALERS RESPONSABILITY TO CONTACT THEM.

10) Not too inconvenienced, more aggravation because the dealer sucks.

As a note to other AE owners,

When the ignition fails on an AE, the bike just glides, similar to a 10 speed bicycle when you stop peddling. You can hear the

clicking and everything. Nothing nasty, not even engine braking, just glide to a stop. After you stop completly, the bike drops

back into gear. I deff wouldnt want this to happen with anyone behind me but at least it doesnt lock up or stop quickly. Its just like

as if you were squeezing a clutch handle

 

[DailyCommuter]

And you can manually shift an AE by moving the shift actuator rod with your hand, so you can push the bike. I had to push mine about a quarter mile home. Glad it didn't happen 30 minutes later I would have been 40 miles or so and completely screwed!

 

[Slardy]

Ionbeam wrote:

"This can be done one of two ways. With the engine running at idle, measure your battery voltage, then from a convenient location measure any ignition switched 12 volt line. Subtract the two to get voltage drop. Alternatively, put the red meter lead on the battery + terminal and the meter black lead on any switched 12 volt line and read the drop directly off the meter."

***************************************************************************************

I may be a little sleepy as it is now 12:30AM, but if you take a voltage measurement as above, are you not measuring the voltage drop thru the B+ supply wire to the ignition switch, and the ignition switch? Why not just take a voltage measurement across the ignition switch?

I just did a quick search of the wiring diagram and found that the Rad Fan current is relay controlled (does not go thru the IS) as well as the fuel injection circuit. There may be more power that bypasses the IS so the calculation in POST 119 is not correct. The current generated heat in the IS would be much less.

My conclusion: If you can measure anywhere near 0.5 Volts or higher across the IS, there is a real high contact resistance problem in the IS. Considering that most of the runtime current is bypassed thru relays, if anything higher than 0.1 volt is measured across the IS, there is a problem.

Slardy

 

[ionbeam]

Either of the two measurement methods should work for determining ignition switch voltage drop. The method I suggested of measuring from the + battery to any switched ignition wire should be the same as measuring across the ignition switch, the ignition switch connectors aren't real handy so I didn't mention them.

Someplace in another thread on this topic I had mentioned that the radiator fan and starter motor bypass the ignition switch. So does the Meter backup power, and as Slardy mentioned, the FI bypasses the ignition switch too.

I just did a quick (casual) electrical survey of the Gen I, without minor sensors and a few other small items there is a constant 300 watt power flow through the ignition switch. That still puts an average of 25 amps or more through the IS. I have a suitable shunt resistor to measure actual current the next time I have a chance.

I agree that >0.5 volts is a lot of voltage drop across the switch but in auto/cycle applications that don't use a relay that is pretty typical. Relays used for voltage switching can be somewhat problematic. It is critical that the relay contact design is rugged enough that any kind of mechanical shock will not cause contact bounce. Also, the relay drop-out voltage needs to be very low. You never want to have a situation where the ignition relay would interrupt power. Placing a relay across the ignition switch would relieve a lot of the current flow through the switch and would still have the contacts of the IS as backup should the relay contact bounce or the coil drop out.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I just went back and edited my original post in this thread to add the 10 answers.

At this point, I'm very glad that I chose to use the OEM Headlight/Heated Grip and OEM Accessory Plug circuits to power/trigger my accessories. By doing so, I have added nothing, zero, ziltch to the Ign Switch contacts load. All my add-ons draw their signals and current from OEM/stock relays that are activated by the switch. That was a strong consideration for my wiring and the potential extra load on the Ign Switch was a huge design consideration, well before anyone starting reporting failures.

My personal concern and situation focuses on the grime and gunk collecting in the switch. I'm convinced that the weep hole is working in reverse and there is an excessive and abnormal amount of contaminants collecting in the Ign. Switch.

 

[Slardy]

I just did a quick (casual) electrical survey of the Gen I, without minor sensors and a few other small items there is a constant 300 watt power flow through the ignition switch. That still puts an average of 25 amps or more through the IS. I have a suitable shunt resistor to measure actual current the next time I have a chance.

ionbeam, I have not checked the diagrams any further, but 300 watts sound high thru the IS. Excepting the horn and turn signals, I can only think of the lights, ECU, dashboard lights, a few indicator lights and sensors like the neutral light......what else? I have no idea what power the ECU consumes. What is your list? I would be very interested in seeing a shunt resistor voltage reading also. Please do when you get a chance.

When I look at the photo of the IS contacts in post #101 I am not sure that this problem is caused by heat due to dirty contacts. If dirt is the cause, the contacts would show evidence of pitting from arcing. The lack of arcing changes my my opinion on the root cause. Now I am thinking that a poor factory solder joint must be the root cause. From the photo, I see nothing that points to the contacts being contaminated.

On the other hand, why does spraying wd-40 into the IS make a difference, as reported by several riders? I would like to see a photo of contacts from another failed IS. Without scratches and pitting of the contacts, how does one produce heat in the contact?

What do you think ionbeam?

Slardy

 

[cota95]

At this point, I'm very glad that I chose to use the OEM Headlight/Heated Grip and OEM Accessory Plug circuits to power/trigger my accessories. By doing so, I have added nothing, zero, ziltch to the Ign Switch contacts load. All my add-ons draw their signals and current from OEM/stock relays that are activated by the switch. That was a strong consideration for my wiring and the potential extra load on the Ign Switch was a huge design consideration, well before anyone starting reporting failures.

Don't feel too good about that Jeff, that's just the way I'm wired and I've had 2 failures...

 

[HaulinAshe]

Don't feel too good about that Jeff, that's just the way I'm wired and I've had 2 failures...

Notice I said "I'm glad", didn't say I feel good! And you just HAD to go burst my little bubble of ignorance right before the big trip, now didntcha!?

 

[Foxhuntr]

I wired my accessories to a Blue Seas box, connected directly to the battery through a relay. Am I correct in assuming that does not put any additional load on the ignition switch?

 

[ed29]

I wired my accessories to a Blue Seas box, connected directly to the battery through a relay. Am I correct in assuming that does not put any additional load on the ignition switch?

Basically, yes you are correct. The only exception is the minuscule amount of current that the coil in the relay draws. That should be very small, a tenth of an amp or so depending on the relay.

 

[ROADHAZARD]

Chalk one up for Skooter, my switch failed yesterday (due to dirty contacts )when i got on the bike to come home from work. About 4.5 miles away. I turned on the key and got 1 second of power then nothing. I was able to jiggle the wires coming out of the bottom of the switch to where they made contact and i rode home. Went this morning to the shop where i was told they did not have a new switch,Atlanta did not have a switch, and nobody had a switch. So,even though i have the YES warrenty i decided to fix it myself. I knew what the problem was from this thread. I had cut the tie wrap holding the wires to the switch a long time ago even though it was not tight. No problem pulling the bars off,then the top clamp ,then i had to fight with the white connector under the tank for a while to get it apart. The security screws were easy to drill out and i took the switch apart expecting to find the red or brown wire disconnected from the plate. They were both tight and had no corrosion on them. There was a small amout of oily grime around in there. Nothing looked like it had gotten too hot and melted. So ,i just cleaned everything up with contact cleaner, put some dielectric grease in there,checked continueity of the red and brown wires from one end to the other to make sure they weren't broken somewhere and put it all back together. Good as new.

2006

39000 miles

failed at work

dirty contacts

fixed myself

only farkles are Sirius radio and small 55 watt lights.

took about 3-4 hours in the garage.

EDIT.

Well, maybe not good as new. I got up this morning, took off for a quick ride, and about 1 mile from the house it died. Hit the starter button and it started right back up, then died again around 30 feet later. A couple of times cranking but no start and then it fired up again and i turned around and went home. Back in the garage i could start it and then kill it by jiggling the key or the wires under the switch. I couldn't think of anything else i could do to fix it so off i went to the dealer. Of course they can't find a swith anywhere in tne known universe so i have no idea how long it will be down. At least i've got my old KZ1300 to ride in the meantime.

 

[kulwen]

Just a general thought here.

I am not a expert by any means, but it seems to me even if the issue is dirty contacts there is a still a design flaw right? The design of the switch allows for stuff to be getting into the switch.

I am going to look into a mod like this from advrider:

Link

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

Just a general thought here.
I am not a expert by any means, but it seems to me even if the issue is dirty contacts there is a still a design flaw right? The design of the switch allows for stuff to be getting into the switch.

I am going to look into a mod like this from advrider:

Link

I have been using a piece of duct tape when the key is out and a threat of rain. When not in use I just stick the small piece on the steering head nut. The key hole doesn't close anymore when I take the key out. Cleaning didn't help and two locksmiths said not much to do but replace it. Later this summer I'll deal with it -- just hope I continue to get ignition during my trip.

 

[TriggerT]

Would blowing the switch out with air, like the kind used to clean computers help, or hurt?

 

[zorkler]

Year , 2005

Miles, 22,580

Failed at red light stalled

not sure

Diagnosed by dealer when i brought bike in to be checked out after my crash

switch was back ordered 2 weeks

Paid by yamaha included in my adjusters numbers after my crash

3 hours to get a truck to bring me home .And i was in the back of the 40 foot u haul holding the front brake all the way home plus i gave the guy 50 bucks ,and i must of lost 10 pounds it was so hot in there

 

[TILAM]

TILAM

06 A (Canadian Bike)

32,000 km (19,000 miles)

First noticed June 7th, 08

Failed when turning key on. Turning the key part way got power and stayed ruunning in that position alright. then later it seemed to be back to normal. A few days later it started doing it again but now had to turn the key as far right as possible. That is where it stands now. Runs fine but for how long?

Spoke to the local shop manager today and he said that the Royal Stars are having problems with their ignition switches. Might be the same supplier.

Canadian FJR's are chipped and he said replacement would require changing the ECU as well. He thought off the top of his head $2400.00 to replace it all!!!!!

He's calling Yamaha tomorrow on my behalf and will plead my case.

I will suggest that Yamaha Canada look at this site too if I have to intervien myself.

 

[Slardy]

TILAM
Canadian FJR's are chipped and he said replacement would require changing the ECU as well. He thought off the top of his head $2400.00 to replace it all!!!!!

He's calling Yamaha tomorrow on my behalf and will plead my case.

I will suggest that Yamaha Canada look at this site too if I have to intervien myself.

TILAM, what do mean by chipped?

Slardy

 

[TILAM]

TILAM
Canadian FJR's are chipped and he said replacement would require changing the ECU as well. He thought off the top of his head $2400.00 to replace it all!!!!!

He's calling Yamaha tomorrow on my behalf and will plead my case.

I will suggest that Yamaha Canada look at this site too if I have to intervien myself.

TILAM, what do mean by chipped?

Slardy

Canadian (and European bikes I think) have a security chip in the key that is read by the ignition switch as I understand it. I don't think it's really necessary as I don't think many FJR's are being stolen but all Gen II bikes here have it. Looks like it might be pricy to replace.

What is the price of the ignition switch in the USA?

 

[Niehart]

Niehart

6/15/08

Year 2006

Mileage 23584

"Failed when turning key on. Turning the key part way got power and stayed running in that position alright. then later it seemed to be back to normal. A few days later it started doing it again but now had to turn the key as far right as possible." That's what mine did & then died 5 days later.

My ignition switch died on a windy road in Montana Sunday night.

Pushed the bike about half a mile to find a place slightly out of the wind. Used my extra headlight bulb & some wires to make sure that I had power all the way to the switch. Of course I did so .. [remembering what I read on this forum] I cut the wires to the switch and wired the big to big & little to little. Ignition, awesome! Monday, found a switch [3 way was all I could find] and wired the big wires to it. Left the little wires hooked together. Cut up a plastic butter cup lid to fit the switch, put a hole in the middle & two slits on the sides for a tie strap. Put it on the closest bolt. Ran like that for another 1500 miles.

Now, as Paul Harvey says, the rest of the story. Part is order, on back order until a release date of June 30th which means that I should have it by July 8th. Would you believe that Yamaha has no way to tell if a dealer has one in stock? What a large crook of **** ..... and they had to have the bike before they would order the switch.

What's worse, even with all of that, I love this bike!