FJRF003.0: Ignition Failures on FJRs

[Brodie]

Gentlemen,

Thought I'd add to the discussion...

My bike gave me several episodes of -nothing- the last couple of months when switching on the key. I cut the cord tie, sprayed contact cleaner in the neither regions of the switch, and even jiggled the wires to some success. With my 3 week vacation coming up I decided to open it up and find out why my switch was intermittent. Thanks to this forum (all of you) I had no reservations about removing the top fork bridge and performing surgery on the ignition switch.

Here are my findings...

Good news...

Upon backing out the security screws and removing the wiper plate I found all four wires were still attached.

The switch had some dirt in it, but no built up spoodge gumming up the works.

The lock cylinder was in great shape for 32 thousand miles, the fork lock was in good repair.

This left me with the basic question... What happened? What is the failure mode on my bike?

I had a closer look at the components. What we have is a plastic wiper plate with brass contacts riveted on and wires soldered to their back side (slight wear on the wiped surface but otherwise in good shape). The lock cylinder is shaped into a shaft which when turned cams a link that moves the lock pin in and out. This shaft also turns a plastic carrier that mounts four copper stampings which act as spring loaded wipers. These copper wipers have two barbed legs engaged in small rectangular holes cast in the carrier. Each wiper has its own spring enabling it to float against the wiper plate. These wipers also have three small contact points embossed on their faces.

Upon closer examination of one of these wipers I noticed heat induced discoloration and a bit more wear on the hottest contact point.

If you look closer at the carrier itself, right next to the overheated wiper is a melted spot in the plastic.

This is the smoking gun I was looking for!

The melted area pinches the wiper so it does not float as easily. When the key is turned the wiper is sliding across the wiper plate and sometimes catches on the edge of the brass contact area. Occasionally it tilts and hangs up in the carrier preventing all three contact points to do their job.

That is the failure mode for the switch on my bike. Now to figure out the root cause.

HEAT - Why are things getting hot in the first place? All the electrical farkles I put on my bike come straight off the battery thru an added fuse then on to a sub panel. I am not putting any more demands on my bikes original wiring. Heat is caused by resistance in an electrical circuit. The main fuse is rated at 50 amps. The electrical path then goes straight to the ignition switch then back to several more fuses and on to the rest of the bike. Think of it, 50 amps, carried by 12 gage wire a good 3 feet through an electrical switch with a very small contact point.

In my opinion this is a very poor design for that kind of amperage. That setup, I believe, was designed several decades ago when Yamahas were small and had a small load on their electrical systems. It is not up to the demands of a modern bike with the type of systems in use today.

I decided to make a change. Relays are designed to use a very small amount of current to switch a much larger load. I found a relay rated at 70 amps to put between the main fuse and the ignition switch. Pictured below is the relay I installed on the ignition switch pigtail located under the fuel tank heat shield.

Its been on the bike for several days now and not given me a lick of trouble. Notice I left the main harness alone on the bike, my standard practice is to always modify the pigtail and leave the main harness intact. That way if I blow it, its a lot easier to replace a component then to repair the main harness.

Time will tell how this set up will hold up.

Many thanks to Barabus, and others, for the time he took to share with us the work he did to his switch.

Brodie

 

[SkooterG]

Well done. I was able to follow most of your analysis. Documented proof of a bad switch NOT relating to soldered contacts coming undone. Most excellent.

You totally lost me on your relay protection however. I don't understand how it helps. But then I ain't the most electrical enlightened person around. Perhaps if you tried to explain like you were talking to a retarded 5 year old who knew nothing about that magic stuff?

The only thing I am somewhat skeptical about is that if the design is truly that outdated and not up to the task, why aren't there even more ignition swtiches going bad?

 

[Old Michael]

I could be wrong, but the high amps aren't going through the switch, are they?

 

[ionbeam]

Brodie done did it! An ignition relay is a real answer to the melting key switches. Best yet, it may be possible to make a Plug 'n Play retrofit kit.

The relay should ideally be a double pole, single throw relay (DPST) with contacts rated for 70A but a single pole, single throw (SPST) relay could be used. The key switch would only serve to turn on the relay. The red power wire would be connected to the output common pin; when the key is turned on the relay closes and passes main power through the relay to the output pins. The current through the key switch would only be on the order of .166 amps (166 mA); the current flow through the output pins could be as much as 70 amps without significant voltage drop or unwanted heating. Voila, fixed.

SPST Relay --->

Pin 85 goes to ground. The large gauge red wire goes to the ignition switch and to pin 30 of the relay. The brown/blue & brown/red wires go to terminal 87. A new wire would be added from the brown/blue wire of the ignition switch to terminal 86 of the relay, this wire would only serve to turn on the relay's coil when the igniton switch is turned on.

 

[cota95]

I just came from the dealer where my switch was replaced last week and the contacts in the switch look exactly the same as Brodies picture above. Yamaha is saying that the owners are adding too many electrical accessories and that is the reason for the failures.

 

[kulwen]

I just came from the dealer where my switch was replaced last week and the contacts in the switch look exactly the same as Brodies picture above. Yamaha is saying that the owners are adding too many electrical accessories and that is the reason for the failures.

That is off base.

At the time of my failure the only accessory I had was a Zumo 550 hook to the battery.

 

[ionbeam]

...Yamaha is saying that the owners are adding too many electrical accessories and that is the reason for the failures.

Said another way, Yamaha has produced the Gen II FJRs with an electrical system capable of generating nearly 700 watts but the ignition switch melts if you use all the watts.

BS!!!

Time to look into an ignition relay.

 

[mike25]

It sounds like it's time to get serious on this issue, and press for

some sort of a recall.

 

[SkooterG]

It sounds like it's time to get serious on this issue, and press forsome sort of a recall.

I agree. Somewhat. Kinda hard for any peon to 'press for a recall'. But what every FJR owner that experiences an ignition failure should do is make a report to NHTSA. I and I would also add a professional, yet stern letter to Yamaha Corporate.

 

[818Guy]

Wow, guess I'm late to the party.

I've had my ignition "fail" on me.

Funny thing is it only started after I got my AE back from the dealership for her 16k service.

Only has happened when it's been really hot (100+). And it only happened when I went to start the bike.

It took a couple of turns (on, then off) but it started.

Two different times; I hope this doesn't happen while riding.

2006AE

16,000 miles

May 08 (can't remember days)

Have not taken to dealership (but may talk with them)

I do have a PCIII which I know they will blame for the issue. I had my second round of code __48 problems earlier this year, dealer said it was the PCIII fault's. However first time I had the same code I did not have the PCIII. Same dealership for that first problem; didn't matter to them that it occurred without the PCIII.

 

[Slardy]

Whoa! Hold on Hoss! I had to read this thing twice, but there's several key points that are in serious conflict with your statement!

My warranty has expired and I didn't get Y.E.S. but I am thinking about pushing this and hope to get them to cover this.

I've decided that if the dealer diagnoses the problem to be the same problem as listed here I'm going to insist they hit Yamaha up to cover the repairs and the cost to have the tumblers changed.

You either should have bought Y.E.S. that is so highly recommended by everybody...or live with your choice of the basic 1 year warranty. Why would you think you're justified to have Yamaha cover this? I can understand them doing out of good will, but you should have bought Y.E.S. like the VAST majority of folks on this forum and in this thread did.

Don't be invoking this forum when you talk to Yamaha without making that distinction. Hopefully, they'll cover it under good will, but tread lightly. Too many people on this thread with valid warranites have put in too much work on this issue to have one interloper try and weasel in. :angry2:

You should be happy the issue has been diagnosed for you, and if Yamaha denies you, know you can have an ignition installed at your expense to resolve the problem.

Ignacio,

How does OlyFJR's situation differ from all of us who had the "ticking" problem, out of warranty. Were your orations the same: no YES, you pay? I think not.

This is clearly a design/manufaturing issue that I am surprised is not a HTSHA recall. This is a dangerous defect. Engine ticking was not dangerous.

OlyFJR, I am a little late in reading this forum thread, but I hope you got Yamaha to cover all repair costs. Good luck.

Slardy

 

[cartfj40]

Whoa! Hold on Hoss! I had to read this thing twice, but there's several key points that are in serious conflict with your statement!

My warranty has expired and I didn't get Y.E.S. but I am thinking about pushing this and hope to get them to cover this.

I've decided that if the dealer diagnoses the problem to be the same problem as listed here I'm going to insist they hit Yamaha up to cover the repairs and the cost to have the tumblers changed.

You either should have bought Y.E.S. that is so highly recommended by everybody...or live with your choice of the basic 1 year warranty. Why would you think you're justified to have Yamaha cover this? I can understand them doing out of good will, but you should have bought Y.E.S. like the VAST majority of folks on this forum and in this thread did.

Don't be invoking this forum when you talk to Yamaha without making that distinction. Hopefully, they'll cover it under good will, but tread lightly. Too many people on this thread with valid warranites have put in too much work on this issue to have one interloper try and weasel in. :angry2:

You should be happy the issue has been diagnosed for you, and if Yamaha denies you, know you can have an ignition installed at your expense to resolve the problem.

Ignacio,

How does OlyFJR's situation differ from all of us who had the "ticking" problem, out of warranty. Were your orations the same: no YES, you pay? I think not.

This is clearly a design/manufaturing issue that I am surprised is not a HTSHA recall. This is a dangerous defect. Engine ticking was not dangerous.

OlyFJR, I am a little late in reading this forum thread, but I hope you got Yamaha to cover all repair costs. Good luck.

Slardy

My 2cts

I agree with SLARDY my switch went bad a mouth after my 1 year warranty was up and the dealer got me a new switch for free and i put it in myself no big deal except for the fact THIS SWITCH SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE BAD IN THE FIRST YEAR OF SERVICE.... so Y.E.S. or not I came of a 20 year old harley that broke a lot but never had to be put on a trailer like my fjr.

I guess in the end would i buy another YAMAHA??? when they don't even want to acknowlege there is a problem. I know I will be P---ed if someone dies because of this problem IT shouln't have to be that way. Thanks for letting me vent.

Cart

 

[Sparko]

1. 2006

2. 16,920 mi.

3. Failed at gas stop. Filled up tank, bike would not start - nothing. Checked fuses, battery connections, then remembered reading about this problem here on this forum (thanks). Jiggeled the ignition wire harness many times - bike fired up. Rode straight home, parked bike. Made appointment at dealer, bike started, rode straight to dealer.

4. Dealer replaced ignition switch. They said they did not know what was wrong?

5. Dealer name: G-Force in Lakewood Colorado.

6. Bike was at dealer for 13 days.

7. Covered under YES.

8. Same key, dealer swaped the lock.

9. Inconvenienced: Yes, just glad to get bike fixed.

 

[Old Michael]

1. 2006

2. 24K miles

3. Failed at 25 mph, on a lightly traveled state road, just after I'd gotten off the highway. Shifted into second,

and bam! Everything dead. Parked on shoulder, and started checking. Battery connections. Fuses -main and ignition.

I had read all about this failure numerous times here on the forum, and was almost expecting it -2006 w/20-some thousand miles.

Jacked around with the wires going into switch, and got intermittent power. Kept at it and got it to stay hot - rode it home -30 miles.

4. Dealer replaced switch, and did ECU changeout while it was in. I reckon he took my word for it on the switch. Picked it up after hours, so

I didn't see the old part or get details on the failure and therefore offer what would be valuable info on that. I suck.

5. Dealer name - Roseville Yamaha! Zac - the service mgr. is a forum member, and was an FJR owner until recently.

6. Bike was at dealer for 3 days.

7. Y.E.S. covered it all.

8. New key. I'm fine with having two. I like keys.

9. I was just heading for the hills when the failure occurred, so that disappointment of having to turn around and go

home was my only suffering.

 

[ed29]

I just got a call from the dealer that fixed my last switch. Yamaha wanted to know why I had 2 failures and they asked the dealer to take the switch apart. My failure was a solder joint that had melted and there was some plastic which was causing the switch to not make contact. They wanted to know if I was running some heavy draw lights or anything of the like off the switch. I have a set of Hella lights which I'm running off the heated grip relay. I'm going to the dealer tomorrow to get some pictures of the switch and I will post up when I get back. The Yamaha rep is coming to the dealer next week to look at the switch. Has there been a failure on an 07 or 08?

My failure was on an 07 with only 4,500 miles and no accessories wired through the ignition switch. Brown wire was no longer connected. I did not get to see it after Yamaha pulled it apart, so cannot say whether failure was mechanical or melting, or poor soldering at assembly.

 

[Barabus]

Good job Brodie. In response, I have added a required piece of information to bring the list to ten- Non-OEM accessories added that contribute to electrical draw. From here on please supply all ten pieces of info and for those of you rereading this post, please go back and edit your post to include this info. Cheers!

 

[Jbrewton45]

So....any '08s experience this problem? Ive looked seems no-one has posted that,or mabey not long enough? Who knows lol.

 

[FjrVfr]

1) 2006

2) 22,250 miles

3) Failed as I pulled into a hotel for the night (how's that for luck?)

4) Type of failure: Brown wire fell off. Looked exactly like others with solder still on the end of the wire.

5) I've got a toggle switch on there now. Not sure I'll trust another Yamaha switch.

6) How many days was the bike at the dealer for service? N/A

7) Paid for by Yamaha or not? N/A (out of warranty, no Y.E.S.)

8) I run heated grips, a Kanetsu vest (rarely) and a Zumo. The Kanetsu is wired directly to the battery.

9) Keys: N/A - as it's not properly repaired yet.

10) Inconvenienced? Very little thanks to the FJR Assistance List!

I'm on my way to Connecticut from Salt Lake and this happened in southwestern Colorado. My thanks to dcarver and toecutter for talking me through the fix (see picture below).

Yamaha - are we certain that "denial" is the appropriate business model here? This will cost someone their life at some point. Is that something you want on your conscience?

The current fix (sorry I didn't shoot the broken solder):

ps - I strongly recommend adding a wire nut or two to everyone's tool kit.

FjrVfr

 

[ionbeam]

Borrowed from another ignition switch failure thread:

The technique of adding slack to the ignition switch harness did not work for me.
The ignition switch on my 2007 (new in July, 8500 miles) failed on startup this morning and the bike has been towed.

I will report the particulars to the ignition switch failure thread once the dealership has rendered its verdict.

It's looking like cutting the excessively tight tie wraps is only a delaying tactic. Apparently heat is getting to the switches in small concentrated areas, the tug of the wires only speeds up the distortion of the switch body and/or the solder separation of wires from the switch.

I had asked if anybody’s key was hot coming out of the ignition switch after a sustained ride but in the couple of report-backs the key isn't getting hot so the problem is in the lower contact area of the switch.

If the switch contacts were a perfect conductor there would be no resistance, therefore no voltage drop, therefore no heat. :blink: Since there is heat there must be resistance, therefore there must be a voltage drop. DING! This we can measure. My '04 has about a 0.6 to 0.8 volt drop, depending on what is on. This is the difference between battery voltage and switched ignition voltage. Cota95, can you measure the voltage drop on your second time repaired switch?

This can be done one of two ways. With the engine running at idle, measure your battery voltage, then from a convenient location measure any ignition switched 12 volt line. Subtract the two to get voltage drop. Alternatively, put the red meter lead on the battery + terminal and the meter black lead on any switched 12 volt line and read the drop directly off the meter.

=====================

Maybe FredW or brundog can provide a sanity check. To take a broad SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), let’s say that the general current draw of a running FJR is 28 amps. 28 amps times 14.3 volts = 400 watts (rounded). If the ignition switch were to have .025 ohms of resistance the switched ignition voltage would drop to 13.6 volts. The 0.7 volt drop would yield 17.5mW corrected value: 19.6 watts of power loss. That’s small stuff, even when passing through a very small area of conduction. Nearly 20 watts is a huge amount of power being converted to waste heat in a very tiny area.

 

[mcatrophy]

... 28 amps times 14.3 volts = 400 watts (rounded). ...

OK

... If the ignition switch were to have .025 ohms of resistance the switched ignition voltage would drop to 13.6 volts. ...

Check.

... The 0.7 volt drop would yield 17.5mW of power loss. ...

Sorry, 0.7 volts times 28 amps = 19.6 watts, not insignificant.
What we need to do is measure the voltage drop at the switch itself to see what it really is. (I'm not in a position to do that at the moment, I may try in a few days.)