KrZy8 Gen2 - Charging Circuit

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I see no problem with having a cable (heavy wire) run in parallel, just so long as you do a good job protecting it from abrasion (and shorting out)..

It would be a lot better than having to rip the beast apart just to run a wire.

OTOH, doing the autopsy on that run of wire sure would be interesting...

PS - Glad you finally found it.

 
Something I'm not seeing here...

You have a large enough parasitic draw (maybe 20A???) in order to get as much apparent voltage drop as you are seeing. Run a bunch of current through a resistive element and you get HEAT (and quite a bit of it). If, in fact, there is a problem like this, where is the (literally) smoking gun?

Ross

 
Trying to answer my own question..

The plug is pretty tight fitting so it's hard to tell whether the pins actually are a bit loose. I confirmed my suspicions by plugging in a spare spade connector into each of the plug pins to see how tight/loose they were. If, like me you find that some of the pins are a bit sloppy fitting you can pull apart the connectors and squish them back down...
How to remove the pins from the connector? I'm familiar with Molex connectors, similar? Need some kind of thin flat 'blade' to push down a barb thus allowing escape from the plastic housing? I did wiggle the wires at RR output, to apply pressure in all axis.. No change in battery vdc readings..
Have a look here for a terminal extraction kit, just scroll down to the bottom.

Don

 
have a Fluke 77 that was recently checked by a Class 1 Calibration Lab (my buddy works in the Calibration Lab at the local Nuke Plant) and I could do some of the checks on my AE if you think it would be helpful but I would not be able to do any testing till Wednesday. Unlike Don, I have a life.
LOL, so says the retired guy with nothing better than to do than ride all around the world. Yes, I AM jealous. Not envious, Jealous! :****:
If you have time (retired old man :lol: ) I'd really like to compare your VDC drop from the RR + (red) output and the Battery + terminal. That's the real clue. It's pretty easy to back probe the RR, I used clipped leads from a capacitor.

The Rest of the Story..
I did as you asked and measured at idle the voltage drop across the red output of the RR to the positive terminal of the battery and measured approx 0.23 volts at idle. The output of the RR to the negative terminal of the battery was 13.5 VDC at idle which is about what I would expect. Please note that I am running a Lithium - Ion battery.

 
have a Fluke 77 that was recently checked by a Class 1 Calibration Lab (my buddy works in the Calibration Lab at the local Nuke Plant) and I could do some of the checks on my AE if you think it would be helpful but I would not be able to do any testing till Wednesday. Unlike Don, I have a life.
LOL, so says the retired guy with nothing better than to do than ride all around the world. Yes, I AM jealous. Not envious, Jealous! :****:
If you have time (retired old man :lol: ) I'd really like to compare your VDC drop from the RR + (red) output and the Battery + terminal. That's the real clue. It's pretty easy to back probe the RR, I used clipped leads from a capacitor.

The Rest of the Story..
I did as you asked and measured at idle the voltage drop across the red output of the RR to the positive terminal of the battery and measured approx 0.23 volts at idle. The output of the RR to the negative terminal of the battery was 13.5 VDC at idle which is about what I would expect. Please note that I am running a Lithium - Ion battery.
Thanks Bill! :clapping:
After installing the external harness, cleaning every connector in sight, yada yada - check out these numbers. The row labeled '5k, HID on' actually had HID, fans, hi beams, brake lights.. with 14.0 VDC at battery!

RR%20straight%20to%20Yuasa.png


Speaking with Kaitsdad, he stated he hasn't seen 14.1 since 2008. I wonder as the gen 2's age if others will see similar charging degradation?

 
I wonder as the gen 2's age if others will see similar charging degradation?
And this would surprise you, it being a Gen II and all? :p

But seriously, Don...something definitely whacky goin' on in the electrical system to have such wildly different readings between the OEM harness and a straight shot from the RR to the battery.

Keep up the detective work. You're gettin' closer.

 
Good job and thanks for sharing. Mine used to show 14.1 on datel up until 2 years ago. This spring I replaced the battery and no joy. I see low to mid 13's like yours did. It still runs OK so I haven't got serious about diag, but I'll be watching this thread.

I'm sure Alan or Fred had you check, but have you done a voltage drop test between the RR and battery? Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing. I'm not saying to measure volts at each spot to see the difference. You put one lead on the RR wire at the RR and the other on the battery. Do this on both the pos. and neg, side. With the meter set on volts you should see 0 ideally, less than 1 volt is OK. This test is checking the condition of the wiring between the 2 points. If the wiring is poor, or too small then voltage will go threw the gage that you have hooked up in parallel. If all is OK no volts or very little will go threw the gage.

From the results you got bypassing the harness that says that volts would be going threw the gage in the test. now you can do the same test, but do it on every leg or part of the pos. side to find the culprit. You can check every connector and piece of wire this way.

 
And this would surprise you, it being a Gen II and all? :p

But seriously, Don...something definitely whacky goin' on in the electrical system to have such wildly different readings between the OEM harness and a straight shot from the RR to the battery.

Keep up the detective work. You're gettin' closer.
Oooh, I knew the cheap shot gen2 comment was coming, so I put on my condom and got fluffed for yah Howie! Let's see, who was out front on the 17 mpg instantaneous, the ignition switch, deer strike, altitude sickness, and now low charging? It's a bitch being a leader, ;)

See updated comments below..

Good job and thanks for sharing. Mine used to show 14.1 on datel up until 2 years ago. This spring I replaced the battery and no joy. I see low to mid 13's like yours did. It still runs OK so I haven't got serious about diag, but I'll be watching this thread.

I'm sure Alan or Fred had you check, but have you done a voltage drop test between the RR and battery? Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing. I'm not saying to measure volts at each spot to see the difference. You put one lead on the RR wire at the RR and the other on the battery. Do this on both the pos. and neg, side. With the meter set on volts you should see 0 ideally, less than 1 volt is OK. This test is checking the condition of the wiring between the 2 points. If the wiring is poor, or too small then voltage will go threw the gage that you have hooked up in parallel. If all is OK no volts or very little will go threw the gage.

From the results you got bypassing the harness that says that volts would be going threw the gage in the test. now you can do the same test, but do it on every leg or part of the pos. side to find the culprit. You can check every connector and piece of wire this way.
RR, you're on the right track. I've done voltage drop tests and resistance checks across both legs of the charging circuit. Resistance says 0, voltage drop indicates not. Just like Prof IonBeam said. Trust the Prof, trust me.
Tonight I tested the ground leg by removing it from the battery and placing it on the frame in various locations - near the steering head and way back on the stupid swing arm. Great output - note the 'external harness or EH, in place).

I then removed wiring from all but one connector near the main fuse to check crimps, corrosion, etc. All looked great. Even tried to connect RR + to wiring near main fuse but had no way to connect with the large lug up there.. So scrap that test.

Maybe the connector at RR output? Cut if off, crimped two female connectors (no solder, but good clean crimp), and yes, the VDC a battery improved, very much so... but not to same level as direct connection to battery from RR.

This, me thinks, is the big clue. Any slight resistance... will cause voltage drop. Even the difference between a freshly crimped connector and one soldered. The OEM has several crimped connectors along the path. When I see guys on Ebay and Jim at Eastern Beaver selling kits that go from RR direct to battery with inline fuse, with kits for numerous bikes, that tells me something.

At this point, I say screw it. I'm done trying to find the smoking gun. I'll post up another thread asking if anyone has spider harness and check local dealer, just to see if my theory that somewhere, there is another junction, not listed in FSM schematic, just like my 61 Chevy did to me.. Bastids..

Another thought is that many times new, fresh, perfect as can be production looms decay with time. Marginally built to save $$, soon enough the decay and issues arise. Just like the FI harness on a 6-cyl Jeep Cherokee I once owned. Not a single root cause, but multiples leading to the aggregate.

Other thoughts, observations..

What a wonderful learning experience this has been! I actually understand how permanent magnet load shedding alternators work.

I learned the wiring harness for a gen 2 FJR,and every page of FSM wiring schematic. :blink:

I learned Professor Ionbeam is always right.. :huh:

I learned that 14.2 volts on a gen 2 FJR is possible at the battery, 14.1 with HID's, fans on, hi beams on is possible. :yahoo:

I learned that my stock regulator has higher Vdc output, runs cooler at idle and hotter than upgraded RR at 5k rpm and heavy load.

Conversely, the upgraded RR runs hotter across all loads and rpms, and has marginally better current output.

I learned the upgrade RR uses Mosfets, not diodes like the OEM RR, and will shutdown rather than burn out if design parameters are exceeded.

I learned the OEM FH012AA has been updated with a FH020AA.

I learned taking videos of the testing process is invaluable - reviewing the videos later proves testing technique and discerned values.

I learned I can get absolutely KrZy with diagnosing problems.

Questions I still have -

What does it mean when Professor IonBeam says "Given a bike with it's history",

and KaitsDad says "You're now my favorite FJR problem child. :huh: "

 
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Don, I'm no expert on this matter by any means but years ago I was taking care of my grandma's old Pontiac and was having similar irregular voltage readings and like Radiohowie mentioned the engine wasn't running very smooth in the process. I banged my head against the wall and started to just start changing out parts to do a fix. But instead I decided to take the battery cables off the vehicle and check the resistance of each one and found the ground cable was the culprit with much corrosion inside the cable. Changed it out and was then fine. But I'm sure you checked those out already. Anyway, just trying to help and hope you get KrZy8 up and running like it should. PM.

 
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have a Fluke 77 that was recently checked by a Class 1 Calibration Lab (my buddy works in the Calibration Lab at the local Nuke Plant) and I could do some of the checks on my AE if you think it would be helpful but I would not be able to do any testing till Wednesday. Unlike Don, I have a life.
LOL, so says the retired guy with nothing better than to do than ride all around the world. Yes, I AM jealous. Not envious, Jealous! :****:
If you have time (retired old man :lol: ) I'd really like to compare your VDC drop from the RR + (red) output and the Battery + terminal. That's the real clue. It's pretty easy to back probe the RR, I used clipped leads from a capacitor.

The Rest of the Story..
I did as you asked and measured at idle the voltage drop across the red output of the RR to the positive terminal of the battery and measured approx 0.23 volts at idle. The output of the RR to the negative terminal of the battery was 13.5 VDC at idle which is about what I would expect. Please note that I am running a Lithium - Ion battery.
Thanks Bill! :clapping:
After installing the external harness, cleaning every connector in sight, yada yada - check out these numbers. The row labeled '5k, HID on' actually had HID, fans, hi beams, brake lights.. with 14.0 VDC at battery!

RR%20straight%20to%20Yuasa.png


Speaking with Kaitsdad, he stated he hasn't seen 14.1 since 2008. I wonder as the gen 2's age if others will see similar charging degradation?
At the risk of being ridiculed again by one of this forums members for worrying over what he feels is nothing, I have never seen 14.1 on my datel on my '10.

The only reason I am adding anything to this thread is on my 12k the tech noted I have 13.9 output. His comment was with all the stuff I have on my bike it was not a big deal at all. I still feel it is not right but I am riding it all the same.

As I am electricity challenged. Dont have the equipment or the brains to do all you have. Also a healthy fear from a childhood accident. I guess as long as it starts and I see 13.8 or so I am good to go.

I still am not sure what you did to resolve your issue but would love to get mine to show what it should, or is expected.

Anyway I am very happy you got it resolved.

 
At the risk of being ridiculed again by one of this forums members for worrying over what he feels is nothing, I have never seen 14.1 on my datel on my '10.

The only reason I am adding anything to this thread is on my 12k the tech noted I have 13.9 output. His comment was with all the stuff I have on my bike it was not a big deal at all. I still feel it is not right but I am riding it all the same.

As I am electricity challenged. Dont have the equipment or the brains to do all you have. Also a healthy fear from a childhood accident. I guess as long as it starts and I see 13.8 or so I am good to go.

I still am not sure what you did to resolve your issue but would love to get mine to show what it should, or is expected.

Anyway I am very happy you got it resolved.
No ridicule here.

The very first thing to check is that your Datel is giving you the straight scoop. Try to get ahold of a reasonably accurate DVM and measure across the battery terminals and compare that to your Datel's display. I know for certain that my Datel reads .1-.2V low and it is wired directly across my battery, with just a relay or switch in series. Contact resistance of the relay or switch should have minimal effect on the measured voltage as the meter draws extremely little current (no current = no voltage drop).

When I initially installed the Datel (many moons ago) I wired it to the switched power terminal strip I have up in the nose cowling, which also supplied power to my Heated Grips, GPS, and a set of FF50 aux lights. The problem with that scenario is that, while the displayed voltage was reasonably accurate with none of the accessories (or just the GPS) running, as soon as you turned on the grips or the Aux lights the error became even greater because of the heavy currents being drawn by those devices. What aI was seeing was the voltage drop on my power switching relay's contacts and the wiring harness to the terminal strip. You really want the Datel to be run direct to the battery on its own dedicated (low current) wires so you get the best look at actually battery (charging) voltage.

 
LAF, no ridicule from me either. Every modern bike I ride, except the FJR, throws at least 14.5 at the battery, no problem. The reason I started this project is like you, I noticed a slow degradation until it hit the 'I gotta fix this point. Me thinks others will have similar experiences as the fjr platform ages.

Painman, Hiya Del! Yep, I did check.. :yahoo: and proved it good by connecting RR negative to the frame (pos still going straight to battery) and readings look great.

 
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I have no idea what the hell most of ya are talking aboot, but it sounds like Don got 'er figured out.

I'm glad.

 
I have no idea what the hell most of ya are talking aboot, but it sounds like Don got 'er figured out.

I'm glad.
I'll throw in a me too here.

But it is kinda sad to see an end to the daily soap.
+1, Gunny; Andy and Karl I used to watch the TV soap opera "Days of our Lives" and the Mexican Telenova "Casa de mi Padre" on the Spanish Language Channel here in Phoenix, now I just look for any posts and threads from "Drama Queen Don Carver" for my daily entertainment!

 
The SMOKING GUN?

Reviewing videos, one of the tests I ran last night was to chop the existing RR output connector off, crimp on some female terminals that were a bit too small for the wire size but kinda made it work anyway...

Results -

RRConnChanged.png


The crimped not soldered OEM harness now delivered 13.96 vdc at the battery at 5k rpm - although it take a bit to get there.

The external harness, soldered, and larger gage wire, delivered 14.15 almost immediately at 5k rpm.

Replacing the RR output connector not as good as using the external harness, directly connected, but still a significant improvement and food for thought for those of you running a tad low? KaitsDad? :unsure:

Here's a short video of the replaced connector test.

https://vimeo.com/45913797

As compared to direct connect via external harness.

https://vimeo.com/45913800

All troubleshooting videos found here..

Testing performed 2012-07-16

2012-716%20-%20WorkDone.jpg


 
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