KrZy8 Gen2 - Charging Circuit

[dcarver]

Will post up in a bit all steps taken tonight..

7/13/2012 Stuff done tonight (CL = Clean and Lube)

CL main fuse sub conn terminals

CL ground conn @ main harness fuse

CL main ground at engine

Add additional ground to RR body

Add additional ground to batt to frame

CL battery terminals

CL main fuse

CL RR dc out, vac input conn

Connect Brodie harness to batt negative (duh!)

CL ignition switch conn

[CL spider near tank rear

https://vimeo.com/45742104

https://vimeo.com/45742103

 

[dcarver]

New strategy today, new attitude.

Clean and lube every connector, it can't hurt and if KrZy8 is to run another six years it needs be done.

If get lucky, find smoking gun great, if not, still needed be done.

Will say I'm no longer a dialectic grease advocate for those riding dusty environments. This time using radio shack cleaner/lube followed up with rs pure lubricant.

 

[dcarver]

Wow. Just measured zero ohms across both + and - leads from RR output to Batt ground cable and main fuse pigtail.

I'm almost chickenshit to measure output voltage... :huh:

 

[Fred W]

and...

:detective2:

 

[dcarver]

No joy

 

[dcarver]

Sure wish I hadn't sold my oscope now, I need one.

 

[ionbeam]

Ya mon, sorry to read about your pain. Nothing you have done or measured has relieved your situation. I sent you a 'structured' troubleshooting guide. Have you performed sequence #1?

 

[dcarver]

Ya mon, sorry to read about your pain. Nothing you have done or measured has relieved your situation. I sent you a 'structured' troubleshooting guide. Have you performed sequence #1?

Yes, and more! If ok by you to post your PM to me?

 

[ionbeam]

Ya mon, sorry to read about your pain. Nothing you have done or measured has relieved your situation. I sent you a 'structured' troubleshooting guide. Have you performed sequence #1?

Yes, and more! If ok by you to post your PM to me?

Ok by me, but is seems like it was a useless bit of drivel based on performance and results.

 

[dcarver]

Absolutely not! Wonderful advice given! :yahoo: And Thank You! Hope my frustration level hasn't alienated you, my friend.

I think I have a most unusual problem, like normal for me.....

I'm on iPad now, kinda tedious to type, and house pc has decided to freak, lol.

I now have literally 0 ohms resistance across both legs of RR output. Ok, 0.1 ohms.

Yet still have > .2 vdc drop measured from batt + and RR hot output, same for return leg.

Changed batteries, car batt was better, yet less than a healthy 14.5 to 14.7 (max 14.3 )

Used Harley batt, it was ~ .2 vdc better than new Yuasa batt.

Wish I could post up video but house isp has died, verizion 3G on iPad now.

I am thinking the rotor magnets have repolarized, reducing output. I noticed that the new engine had less sucky force than old engine when installing stator, case on new engine . Not scientific, for sure, yet possible. The bike was crashed on that side, yes, drawing straws.

Since I have a rotor I trust, will swap tomorrow. It looks like a steering wheel puller will work quite well. I know the rotor is a long shot, but I have known good batt, RR, and wiring loom shows acceptable readings across 3 different meters, 2 Fluke dmms, and one old yet good Triplett!

I am keeping good attitude about this. have learned so much about perm mag charging systems and should krzy8 go bad roadside, I am familiar. I like knowledge, although acquisition can be a bitch.

I APPRECIATE your input, Alan, and will post up direct responses to your list soonest.

Wow, this iPad needs a keyboard...

My thinking is the rotor magnets polarity have slightly changed due to crash causing AC mis-phase and subsequent lower output. I don't have a scope to view waveforms, yet I did measure a 10:1d difference between 1 phase to the other 2 phases. Assuming Yamaha reduces each phase proportionately, not a phase individually, this kind of makes sense to my addled mind.

I know the rotor is a long shot.. But I've had 2 rotors in my biking career be bad! This would be 3, if factual.

Once again, Thank You!

 

[Fred W]

Don,

I think you may be chasing rainbows. I've never seen 14.5V at the battery on my bike ever. I have a Datel hooked up directly across the the battery and when fully re-charged I see 14.1-14.2. I know from comparing to a Fluke DVM that my Datel reads about a 10th low, so call it 14.3V. That's it. If you're seeing 14.3V at the battery after swapping the battery, I would suggest that maybe it has been the battery (or batteries) that is the culprit all along.

Now wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? :blink:

 

[ionbeam]

...Changed batteries, car batt was better, yet less than a healthy 14.5 to 14.7 (max 14.3 )

Used Harley batt, it was ~ .2 vdc better than new Yuasa batt..

...I am thinking the rotor magnets have repolarized, reducing output. I noticed that the new engine had less sucky force than old engine when installing stator, case on new engine . Not scientific, for sure, yet possible...

...It looks like a steering wheel puller will work quite well. I know the rotor is a long shot, but I have known good batt...

...AC mis-phase and subsequent lower output...

If the problem were a demagnetized rotor you would have had low voltage on one or more phases of the stator output.

The phasing of the stator is mechanically fixed. Unless you have distorted parts the phasing has to be correct. If phasing was off you would not have had equal voltage on all the stator wires.

Even with a stout wheel puller you may still have a b!tch of a job swapping something that is 0.000001% likely to be the problem.

Ok, now you have idle voltage >14.1 volts, how does the voltage hold up under load like heated stuff or driving lights (since that is what triggered this troubleshooting in the first place)?

Item 1 in the troubleshooting outline was to confirm the NEW battery was up to snuff before doing a lot of digging. Because many of the resistances being measured were going to be under 10 Ω my outline is looking for voltage drops because they are easier and more accurate than resistance readings. Resistance and voltage drop are directly linked and proportional, any resistance will result in a proportional increase in voltage.

I hope that when you turn on any 40 watt load that your battery voltage is going to be 13.7 or higher.

 

[dcarver]

Here's a summary of things looked at.

Day 1

Day 2 - part 1

Day 2 - part 2

Day 3

Day 4

 

[dcarver]

Don,

I think you may be chasing rainbows.If you're seeing 14.3V at the battery after swapping the battery, I would suggest that maybe it has been the battery (or batteries) that is the culprit all along.

Now wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? :blink:

Yes, it would be! :huh: The highest batt voltage I've seen is 14.1 at 5k, across an RV battery. On the new Yuasa, highest is 13.7, fans off. On the Harley MC battery, highest is 13.8,fans off. Aren't these numbers still a tad low?

If the problem were a demagnetized rotor you would have had low voltage on one or more phases of the stator output.

Ok, now you have idle voltage >14.1 volts, how does the voltage hold up under load like heated stuff or driving lights (since that is what triggered this troubleshooting in the first place)?

Item 1 in the troubleshooting outline was to confirm the NEW battery was up to snuff before doing a lot of digging. Because many of the resistances being measured were going to be under 10 Ω my outline is looking for voltage drops because they are easier and more accurate than resistance readings. Resistance and voltage drop are directly linked and proportional, any resistance will result in a proportional increase in voltage.

I hope that when you turn on any 40 watt load that your battery voltage is going to be 13.7 or higher.

I've not done a good job posting up all the testing done here on fjrforum, my bad.

I agree the rotor is a long shot, yet two data points are curious

1 - The new rotor has less 'pull' when placing the alt cover/stator on. On the OEM engine, it's a real bear to remove. Not so much on the new engine. I'm kinda hoping the unloaded voltage measurement is like reading an unloaded battery.. All volts and no current. Which leads to curious data point #2 -

2. When measuring the stator output, loaded, phase A-B and A-C read 1.6 and 1.7 VAC. Phase B-C reads 11.1 VAC. I would think that all voltages should be more or less equal? From the pix of work done posted above, the data is in section Day 2 - part 2.

I did perform battery testing per your instructions, and it passed with flying colors. Did all points listed to test on both the old and new batteries. Both look really good, passed with no problems.

Resistance and Voltage meaurments - I've done both R and V drop tests across the wiring of the power circuit (RR out to main fuse, battery terminals, starter relay. Improvement has been made on the Resistance values, they are now virtually 0 to 0.1 ohms on both pos and neg legs as measured using two different DVM's. The voltage drop still remains, however. :blink: I'll re-test today in a bit after I get some chores done.

I don't have idle voltage > 14.1 volts at battery. I have 14.1 to 14.3 at RR output,loaded circuit. Presently, my best case numbers (car battery, fans off) are:

Idle = 13.3

5k Rpm = 14.1 (after a 2 minute run)

MC battery (new yuasa and Harley Davidson batt)

Idle = 13.1 Y, 13.2 HD

5k Rpm = 13.7 Y, 13.8 HD

Note - on HD batt, dropped to from 13.8 to 13.4 when fans kicked in. Not sure what the wattage is on the fans...

What's your opinion of bypassing the wiring loom and going straight from the RR to the main fuse? Eliminate as many variables as possible?

I'll do load testing when I get back (heated jacket, HID lights, etc..

I'm really curious to your and Fred's thoughts about the loaded stator VAC readings..

:yahoo: :yahoo: Thanks again for all your help, I owe yah multiple beverages of your choice! :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

[mcatrophy]

...

If the problem were a demagnetized rotor you would have had low voltage on one or more phases of the stator output.

...

Minor point, and of no help, but all phases would be affected equally. Just being my usual pedantic self

.

I'll add a datapoint. My battery never measures more than 14.1V, and as loads go on (heated grips, brake lights, winkers, heated vest), it reduces to about 13.5, even when revving at 5000.

Doesn't seem to be under charged, after starting in the morning the voltage rises to 14.1 (at fast idle) within a few tens of seconds.

 

[yamafitter]

I agree the rotor is a long shot, yet two data points are curious

1 - The new rotor has less 'pull' when placing the alt cover/stator on. On the OEM engine, it's a real bear to remove. Not so much on the new engine. I'm kinda hoping the unloaded voltage measurement is like reading an unloaded battery.. All volts and no current. Which leads to curious data point #2 -

2. When measuring the stator output, loaded, phase A-B and A-C read 1.6 and 1.7 VAC. Phase B-C reads 11.1 VAC. I would think that all voltages should be more or less equal? From the pix of work done posted above, the data is in section Day 2 - part 2.

I find the stator voltage readings to be very curious and could only be true if the coils have gone open or the load is dead shorted which should be blowing fuses. I believe the stator to be 'Delta' wound and all voltages should be near identical. Your earlier readings were balanced but there is now a major change. I would go back and confirm these readings because there is definitely a problem and you could have not had some of your previous readings if these readings were true.

I would also confirm that your test leads are good just to be on the safe side. Something has gone south here and you need to proceed carefully. Please make sure your test gear is reading properly by testing on a household circuit (ie - a known 110VAC source) just to make sure and then confirm the same way after you complete your testing. This ensures that nothing happened to the meter during testing.

I know I'm talking to a fellow highly experienced tech but sometimes we allow ourselves to get tripped up by simple errors when deep into troubleshooting.

 

[yamafitter]

To figure out where your gremlin is, we may need to get another helpful 2nd gen owner to make those same measurements that you have made on a healthy bike, ideally with the same test equipment.

I have a Fluke 77 that was recently checked by a Class 1 Calibration Lab (my buddy works in the Calibration Lab at the local Nuke Plant) and I could do some of the checks on my AE if you think it would be helpful but I would not be able to do any testing till Wednesday. Unlike Don, I have a life.

New strategy today, new attitude.

Clean and lube every connector, it can't hurt and if KrZy8 is to run another six years it needs be done.

If get lucky, find smoking gun great, if not, still needed be done.

Will say I'm no longer a dialectic grease advocate for those riding dusty environments. This time using radio shack cleaner/lube followed up with rs pure lubricant.

I would still go with a decent dielectric grease such as Dow Corning 4 but then I used to get it for free.

If you're not shopping at work you're paying too much!!

 

[dcarver]

have a Fluke 77 that was recently checked by a Class 1 Calibration Lab (my buddy works in the Calibration Lab at the local Nuke Plant) and I could do some of the checks on my AE if you think it would be helpful but I would not be able to do any testing till Wednesday. Unlike Don, I have a life.

LOL, so says the retired guy with nothing better than to do than ride all around the world. Yes, I AM jealous. Not envious, Jealous! :****:
If you have time (retired old man :lol: ) I'd really like to compare your VDC drop from the RR + (red) output and the Battery + terminal. That's the real clue. It's pretty easy to back probe the RR, I used clipped leads from a capacitor.

The Rest of the Story..

I bypassed the OEM wiring harness, connecting the RR output directly to battery.

Instant magic!

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

14.1 VDC at battery, fans running, HID lights blazing, blinkers a blinking, brake lights a lighting. Hell, I even connected a 2.5 MW inverter, powered up all of downtown Creston and the batt voltage only dropped by 0.1 volts! Ok, kidding about the inverter. But the rest is true.. I'll have numbers and video up tomorrow if anyone interested.

This guy sells a RR kit, this one is exact for the FJR. I bought the RR only from him, to save a few bucks, will contact him to see if I can get the RR connectors and what not separately.

Questions I know have are...

1.  
   
2. Is it a good idea to bypass the OEM wiring harness.. knowing somewhere in that mess is a resistive junction? Is this just a band-aid fix or a viable, long term fix?
   
3. Where the heck could this resistive element be? It appears the RR output connects directly to the main fuse, then to battery, ABS brakes, start relay. I pulled the ABS fuse, no change. Measured current in starter wire when running, and gee, it was 0 amps. What would cause this voltage drop? Resistance. Ok, then, where? I'm going to see if my local dealer still has a fjr wiring harness around.. He had several due to spiders.
   

Hmm, my superfast NeeenerNet connection is saying another 125 MicroSoft minutes to upload the video.. Me outta here!

 

[dcarver]

Trying to answer my own question..

The plug is pretty tight fitting so it's hard to tell whether the pins actually are a bit loose. I confirmed my suspicions by plugging in a spare spade connector into each of the plug pins to see how tight/loose they were. If, like me you find that some of the pins are a bit sloppy fitting you can pull apart the connectors and squish them back down...

How to remove the pins from the connector? I'm familiar with Molex connectors, similar? Need some kind of thin flat 'blade' to push down a barb thus allowing escape from the plastic housing? I did wiggle the wires at RR output, to apply pressure in all axis.. No change in battery vdc readings..

 

[TomInPA]

The Rest of the Story..

I bypassed the OEM wiring harness, connecting the RR output directly to battery.

Instant magic!

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

Gee, where'd that idea come from?