Bustanut joker
Well-known member
He rode a genlll Howie..
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
Let's talk, Shell Rotella T
- Thread starter Dodahdude
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odot
CC member # 17,----- DUP member # 7, mensa club m
Ya know........skootys got a point. Amsoil has changed some oil parameters in some of their oils to meet up with new equiptment out there.....so....who knows.
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
garyahouse
newbs need the forum
Glad you posted this. As much as I've learned about oil over the years, this I never knew. In the middle of that huge "read," (yes I read most of it), I came across the subject of Vii's. Vii stands for Viscosity Index Improvers. They are the chemicals added to oil to raise its viscosity when it gets hot.
What's a V i i ?
(Copied from the text) To make a 10w-40 oil, the manufacturer would start out with a 10 weight oil as the base stock. All by itself, this oil would thin out so much at normal operating temperatures that the oil film would be useless. So, they add these very special very long molecules, the VIIs.
Here Kitty Kitty
The V-I-I molecules are as much as 1000 times as long as an oil molecule. The VII molecules curl up in a little ball at room temperature, but as the oil temperature gets higher they uncurl and stretch out, like a cat sleeping in the sunlight. The more stretched out the molecule is, the more it impedes the normal flow of the oil, thus raising the viscosity. Now, this sounds just a little too good to be true. Well, there are two catches: first, these molecules are not lubricants, so the more of them that you add the less oil you have sitting around lubricating things.
Your engine is a VII killer
Secondly, these VII molecules can be broken into pieces by various pressures and forces, like being squeezed through the transmission gears in a motorcycle or the hydraulic valves in a diesel engine. Every time a VII molecule gets broken, the oil loses some of its high temperature viscosity.
There is a solution
Synthetic oils made from pure PAOs and/or Diesters typically have very few VIIs, so these oils are far less subject to viscosity breakdown due to shearing of the VII package. As a result, synthetics are far more stable in a motorcycle engine.
Why should I care? The article says this happens within 1500 miles in a motorcycle engine because of the trannie gears. AND IT DOES. I've noticed this in my FJR. After a fresh oil change, the trannie shifts notably smoother.
Now I know why. The breakdown of Viscosity Index Improvers (VII's). And since synthetic has very few of them... there ya go. Very little viscosity breakdown, and significantly better film strength-- the two things a trannie needs. Think viscosity ain't that big of a deal? Why do automotive trannies have 90 weight oil?
Think about it.
Gary
darksider #44
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Dodahdude
Well-known member
Therefore the synthetics have no affect on the "clutch"?
RossKean
Well-known member
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Nope... Unless you put Oats in it. Then all bets are off.
As was mentioned, my bigger concern would be staying within the OEM viscocity & SAE rating requirements than a specific brand.
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Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
The VII's and their effects have been around since the beginning of multi-viscosity oils. Yes, they do break down and that is one reason we need to change our oil regardless of whether or not it looks dirty. But it is nothing new and these oils have been working fine for us for many years. Nothing to worry about unless you tend to not change your oil.
I suppose it may be something to think about if you are using one of the oils which contain used, or reconditioned motor oil. I have not seen any of this stuff that would be suitable for motorcycles.
I suppose it may be something to think about if you are using one of the oils which contain used, or reconditioned motor oil. I have not seen any of this stuff that would be suitable for motorcycles.
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awesome...
Great post.
i suspect a lot of guys get the "oil is oil" comment that sometimes gets posted in a thread...
but oil in bikes is used differently from oil in cars...
in that the oil also runs through the tranny gears and clutch... unlike in a car
so...
what many are concerned about is how running brand "X" non-OEM may affect the clutch/gears of their bike...
i know i wondered... and there's still so much to learn
which is why i'm here... sometimes i learn far more this group then i ever thought possible.
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johnny80s
Turtle Gears
If only Jestal was still here...
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Agreed.. Haven't heard from Al in a year or two.
His old Oil thread here was spot on yet people found it necessary to debate with him.
I completely understand his going away.
garyahouse
newbs need the forum
Whole lotta charter
Many have written in to complain of chattering clutches. The fix, well documented on this forum, is to pull the clutch apart and soak it in oil for a period of time, say overnight. This seems to fix the problem for most. Therefore it would appear that the FJR clutch doesn't get a whole lot of oil between the plates.
But why mom?
Otherwise, why bother soaking them to fix a chattering issue? So, my question: if the plates don't get enough oil, and therefore need to be soaked (on some bikes) to take care of chatter, then why would the friction modifiers... that can cause clutches to slip... be an issue for the FJR clutch? I appreciate what RossKean had to say above.
Danger Will Robinison
Sorry bout that. I can still remember that goofy robot on "Lost in Space." Anyway, why do manufacturers scream out their warnings about clutches and friction modifiers? Me thinks it's due to liability, and the fact that many clutches are not robust enough to handle the power channeled through them, and second, that many bike owners mercilessly beat their clutches attempting to pull 100 mph wheelies, doing burnouts and etc. Add to that the fact that many engines bathe their respective clutches with much more oil than the FJR (apparently) does, and bingo: ya got cherself a problem, son.
Therefore, considering that FJR owners can boast of a very robust clutch, are typically not the wheelie/burnout type, and the FJR clutch doesn't seem to enjoy a serious bath of oil all the time, I can understand why this slipping (due to the use of synthetics with friction modifiers) issue has never been reported on this forum. Correct me if I'm wrong on that?
Just a thought.
Gary
darksider #44
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RossKean
Well-known member
Synthetics are not the issue but certain additives providing the "Energy Conserving" logo on many non-motorcycle oils have been blamed for slipping motorcycle "wet" clutches. No idea whether this was someone's guess that it might be problematic or if there is any serious documented evidence.
The Rotella products (conventional or synthetic) do not have the logo so presumably they are safe for the application. I have heard of individuals using the "Energy Conserving" automotive oils in their bikes without problems but that isn't something I would choose to do.
Note: I use synthetic because I can use a longer drain interval without worrying about it, it doesn't thicken up as much as temperatures drop and it better shear stability. Don't know whether it makes any real difference but it doesn't cost me a lot extra and I feel better about it. More expensive so it must be better, right?
The Rotella products (conventional or synthetic) do not have the logo so presumably they are safe for the application. I have heard of individuals using the "Energy Conserving" automotive oils in their bikes without problems but that isn't something I would choose to do.
Note: I use synthetic because I can use a longer drain interval without worrying about it, it doesn't thicken up as much as temperatures drop and it better shear stability. Don't know whether it makes any real difference but it doesn't cost me a lot extra and I feel better about it. More expensive so it must be better, right?
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SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
I have thought about it and read lots of other stuff and I would like to see some objective proof of this other than some guy that says so on the internet. Too many peeps have been using conventional oil for too long with no issues for me to buy into this. Cripes, peeps get way too nutso when it comes to oil.
Well, I am not a petroleum nor automotive engineer so I don't know specifically. But the fart smellers I have learned from have made that point very clear to me.
It really is too bad Jestal isn't around anymore. And Bust, it really has nothing to do with the BS that went on around here, though unfortunately there was plenty of it.
For those of you newer members not in the know, Jestal was a GM powertrain engineer who had a direct role in developing GM's oil life monitor. They came up with the algorithm for the oil life monitor by doing lots of validation testing. That boy knew his shit about oil.
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
I know Greg, but his disappointment at times did play a role in his dwindling posts prior to his departure...
Wonder how he's doin at that other place?
Wonder how he's doin at that other place?
Chuck35
Well-known member
So did Jestal recommend Rotella T6 for our FJR's ?
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
No....
But he did say it was okay for me to take a dump in your gas tank...
But he did say it was okay for me to take a dump in your gas tank...
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