Neil San Diego
One of "...those guys..."
Wait about thirty or fourty years, and they will be when she lies on her back...
Thank Gawd they're not horizontally opposed!
:lol:
Migrating to BMW ...?
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beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Neil, 7 nights of sex 7 times each night with Senorita Salma would kill off Papa Chuy and RadioHowie on the last day anyway: We don't give a fat rat's patooie about 35 years down the road Amigo!Wait about thirty or fourty years, and they will be when she lies on her back...
Thank Gawd they're not horizontally opposed!
:lol:
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Spud
Well-known member
Wow--I always thought it was the other way around! Thanks for clarifying that. So, stopping and starting constantly, turning the motor on and off over and over all day, getting on and off constantly is BETTER for a bike than cruising down the highway for hours. Who knew! Next time I'm car shopping, I'll keep my eye out for a retired cop car, and if I ever need a truck I'll find a retired UPS rig that ran the city route. Then I'll know I've got something with minimal wear and tear. I learn so much on here!!!I am.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
You tell 'em Spud. What is it with old guys anyway?Wow--I always thought it was the other way around! Thanks for clarifying that. So, stopping and starting constantly, turning the motor on and off over and over all day, getting on and off constantly is BETTER for a bike than cruising down the highway for hours. Who knew! Next time I'm car shopping, I'll keep my eye out for a retired cop car, and if I ever need a truck I'll find a retired UPS rig that ran the city route. Then I'll know I've got something with minimal wear and tear. I learn so much on here!!!I am.
You tell 'em Spud, it's rough when you're never more than 40 miles from the shop. I mean jeeze, you might have to wait for the tow! Having your motor maintained for you all the time, never buying your own tires. It's risky! :lol:Wow--I always thought it was the other way around! Thanks for clarifying that. So, stopping and starting constantly, turning the motor on and off over and over all day, getting on and off constantly is BETTER for a bike than cruising down the highway for hours. Who knew! Next time I'm car shopping, I'll keep my eye out for a retired cop car, and if I ever need a truck I'll find a retired UPS rig that ran the city route. Then I'll know I've got something with minimal wear and tear. I learn so much on here!!!
I'm not saying BMW doesn't build a damn nice, feature rich bike that's a pleasure to ride. I'm simply saying they aren't reliable enough to take cross country. The dealer network is spotty, at best. Oh, and Zilla, it's not one bad service incident, or one bad dealer. It's several different times with multiple dealers. I've had some good ones too, but most of the times we've gone to the dealer it hasn't been a positive experience. And they have never, ever, not even once, been able to fix the problems that they have service bulletins for. No parts in stock. Not so much as a $8 gasket.
When the stator fried on the little GS, they asked me if I wanted them to pull the cover and visually inspect it. I asked why they were asking me? Because they didn't have a gasket and wouldn't be able to put the cover back on, regardless of if it was found to be good or bad. We're on the road, it's Sat, they've had the bike all day and tell us it's fine. Only when I asked them if they had visually inspected the stator did they ask me if I wanted them to. $127 for them to blow smoke up my butt because they couldn't and didn't do the diagnostic procedure correctly for lack of a cheap gasket.
FYI - BMW does not sell a replacement stator. What they do sell, is a complete stator 'assembly' that includes the rotor, which really doesn't wear. So instead of <$200, it's just about $1k for a new stator in parts alone. Made that aftermarket extended warranty pay off, big time.
Oh yeah, feel like your BMW is the shit? Ever notice how you can't buy a factory extended warranty for one? BMW doesn't sell them. Not profitable, or so I was told by the BMW customer service rep. One year, 36k, that's it. A friend's RT blew up it's driveshaft U-joint at 37k. She's lucky it didn't lock the wheel until she was nearly stopped. Not a happy thing on I-15 North of Idaho Falls. They had to tow her to the nearest BMW dealer.... in Salt Lake City, UT! She fought them and they ended up paying for the repairs, which ended up including a FD since the broken shaft tore up the housing. Kudos to BMW for paying for it, after the fight, despite it being out of warranty.
Lets just say I'm fine with anyone wanting a BMW, but don't go into it with your eyes closed. Repair and maintenance costs are higher than other brands. Not all other brands, mind you. KTMs are pretty high maintenance too. And Ducs, Guzzis and more. Oddly, Aprilla seems to be pretty good. :blink: I was surprised. Not for everybody, but no bike is.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
HRZ, pull your head out of the sand. Not every BMW is going to have a FD failure. Some might not fail until 80-100k miles which many BMW owners will never see. Many will never fail. But fail they do at a much higher rate than any other manufacturer out there. I have see LOTS of them. Personally. And I like and would own a BMW.
Instead of just spewing verbal diarrhea on an online forum, go to some research and you will see it has nothing to do with maintenance.
And the great thing about them failing? You never see it coming until right before it fails so more times than not it will leave you stranded out the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps my senile bastard step-pappy has forgotten this poor bastard who had to be towed several hundred miles from Jacob Lake, AZ to Salt Lake City due to his FD failure.
And I have no idea why my moronic step-pappy is quoting Meese - that bastard has had SEVERAL final drive failures. Many of them keeping him from finishing or even winning a rally. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?
And let's not even get into the transmission failures or other chronic problems of der wunderbike. Again, I like BMWs and may very well own one in the future. But let's me honest, their quality record has not been stellar.
Instead of just spewing verbal diarrhea on an online forum, go to some research and you will see it has nothing to do with maintenance.
And the great thing about them failing? You never see it coming until right before it fails so more times than not it will leave you stranded out the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps my senile bastard step-pappy has forgotten this poor bastard who had to be towed several hundred miles from Jacob Lake, AZ to Salt Lake City due to his FD failure.
And I have no idea why my moronic step-pappy is quoting Meese - that bastard has had SEVERAL final drive failures. Many of them keeping him from finishing or even winning a rally. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?
And let's not even get into the transmission failures or other chronic problems of der wunderbike. Again, I like BMWs and may very well own one in the future. But let's me honest, their quality record has not been stellar.
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SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Mi bastard step-pappy is a fucking moron.
How quickly he forgets............. He posted the below just a little over two years ago.
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El Toro
Innocent Bystander
Lets face it. These threads that ask about BMW are always going to be poison on this board. I think that readers can take a look at people's signature lines and make their own decisions about the value of the posts. Maybe BMW brings out both the best of people and the worst of people.
FWIW, this has been a really great year for new bike sales at my preferred Yamaha dealer. The fellow I consider my salesperson used to ride an ST1100 (when I had one too), later an ST1300 (when I bought my first FJR1300), now a Goldwing. Early in the season he expressed concern that Yamaha and Honda weren't giving the sales force anything to get excited about. He said that Kawasaki was at least trying, with new features, more power, etc. Kawasaki was holding the price best too, with ST1300 retail up around $18K.
We compared notes after I bought the K1600GTL. He is really a sport touring kinda guy, and the K1600 is sportier than the Goldwing, so he was drawn to it. Lots of folks have compared the Concourse to the K1600, and the nearly $10K price difference often puts the Kawi in lead.
Even so, I'm pretty happy with the K1600 ... but then I'm happy with the FJR too. BMW has really brought out a lot of neat new products during the last 5 years as many other marques have taken a wait and see attitude.
FWIW, a friend of mine who has a recently acquired low mileage '03 FJR has a leaking final drive seal, so it can happen to anyone. No one is out there torching it, or taking pictures of the bike on a trailer, etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure that no one cares. He is in the process of sorting it out. In general, there's really no irrational hatred toward Yamaha, so that's a strength for them. Maybe the tuning forks really do bring harmony as was their original intent.
FWIW#2, BMW has done updates and open recall repairs on numerous occasions without my asking for anything. They have tended to stay on top of the service issues as long as I follow the recommended schedule of maintenance. When I had the K1600 in Atlanta for tires the other day after the front tire puncture on the interstate, they replaced the dip stick on an open recall order, and they did two software updates to modify things like the status of the auxiliary lights after an ignition off-on cycle. Latest and greatest fuel & timing maps too. I seem to be getting an extra mpg as a result, although its hard to be sure about attribution for such improvements.
FWIW, this has been a really great year for new bike sales at my preferred Yamaha dealer. The fellow I consider my salesperson used to ride an ST1100 (when I had one too), later an ST1300 (when I bought my first FJR1300), now a Goldwing. Early in the season he expressed concern that Yamaha and Honda weren't giving the sales force anything to get excited about. He said that Kawasaki was at least trying, with new features, more power, etc. Kawasaki was holding the price best too, with ST1300 retail up around $18K.
We compared notes after I bought the K1600GTL. He is really a sport touring kinda guy, and the K1600 is sportier than the Goldwing, so he was drawn to it. Lots of folks have compared the Concourse to the K1600, and the nearly $10K price difference often puts the Kawi in lead.
Even so, I'm pretty happy with the K1600 ... but then I'm happy with the FJR too. BMW has really brought out a lot of neat new products during the last 5 years as many other marques have taken a wait and see attitude.
FWIW, a friend of mine who has a recently acquired low mileage '03 FJR has a leaking final drive seal, so it can happen to anyone. No one is out there torching it, or taking pictures of the bike on a trailer, etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure that no one cares. He is in the process of sorting it out. In general, there's really no irrational hatred toward Yamaha, so that's a strength for them. Maybe the tuning forks really do bring harmony as was their original intent.
FWIW#2, BMW has done updates and open recall repairs on numerous occasions without my asking for anything. They have tended to stay on top of the service issues as long as I follow the recommended schedule of maintenance. When I had the K1600 in Atlanta for tires the other day after the front tire puncture on the interstate, they replaced the dip stick on an open recall order, and they did two software updates to modify things like the status of the auxiliary lights after an ignition off-on cycle. Latest and greatest fuel & timing maps too. I seem to be getting an extra mpg as a result, although its hard to be sure about attribution for such improvements.
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SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
I agree with everything you said except for that above. A leaking seal on an FJR's FD is not the same at the catastrophic failures that happen to BMW's FD. I have had weeping seals replaced twice. No drama. One had been weeping for 60,000 miles or so before I decided to do something about it. I have only ever heard of a *single* occurrence where the FJR's FD leaked so quickly it had to be towed. And the repair was simply a new seal. Not FD replacement. Sure, there have probably been a few more that don't make it to the internet. However, most are just a leaking or weeping seal. No biggie. Get it fixed at your convenience.
However, not only I have heard of LOTS of catastrophic BMW FD failures where the bike had to be towed as in *right now, your trip is fubar'd, and guess what? You need an entire new FD*, but I have PERSONALLY seen MANY of them first hand.
Big difference.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that BMW's haven't had some final drive issues. I'm sayimg that just like heat, throttle stiffness, vibration, and other topics found on this board, the failures are overstated.
That's all...
That's all...
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
I disagree. :finger:
For the simple reason that all that you mention above won't leave you stranded - not only hundreds of miles from home, but also all to frequently hundreds of miles from the nearest dealership. Say so long to that two week moto vacation you have been planning all year.
Which is also why so many of us thought the Gen II ground spider problem was such a big deal.
Just hope none of this happens to you. You might be singing a completely different tune. Unless that is, you don't mind unreliable motorcycles that leave you stranded far from home.
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El Toro
Innocent Bystander
Yamaha does not precipitate the irrational hatred that BMW seems to precipitate from so many people.
The Yamaha logo was originally a mythical bird who would bring good fortune who was also carrying a tuning fork in its mouth. I think the bird was called a Hoo, and may have been of Chinese origin.
Yamaha eventually settled on the three tuning forks, one for each important part of their business.
From their corporate site: "The three tuning forks of the Yamaha logo mark represent the cooperative relationship that links the three pillars of our business -- technology, production, and sales. They also evoke the robust vitality that has forged our reputation for sound and music the world over, a territory signified by the enclosing circle. The mark also symbolizes the three essential musical elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm."
So there's a good vibration surrounding Yamaha. BMW is not so lucky. I have some books on BMW history, and one of them says that BMW owners want to ride their bikes until, like the proverbial Oliver Wendell Holmes One Hoss Shay, they are ground to dust. A lot of the angriest guys who seem to have the most negative feelings toward BMW are the kind of guys who have this sort of expectation for their bike. For those of us who came up during the age when British iron was king, we're happy if we don't have to do a valve job with a pocket knife and valves from a small block V-8 on the side of the road.
The Yamaha logo was originally a mythical bird who would bring good fortune who was also carrying a tuning fork in its mouth. I think the bird was called a Hoo, and may have been of Chinese origin.
Yamaha eventually settled on the three tuning forks, one for each important part of their business.
From their corporate site: "The three tuning forks of the Yamaha logo mark represent the cooperative relationship that links the three pillars of our business -- technology, production, and sales. They also evoke the robust vitality that has forged our reputation for sound and music the world over, a territory signified by the enclosing circle. The mark also symbolizes the three essential musical elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm."
So there's a good vibration surrounding Yamaha. BMW is not so lucky. I have some books on BMW history, and one of them says that BMW owners want to ride their bikes until, like the proverbial Oliver Wendell Holmes One Hoss Shay, they are ground to dust. A lot of the angriest guys who seem to have the most negative feelings toward BMW are the kind of guys who have this sort of expectation for their bike. For those of us who came up during the age when British iron was king, we're happy if we don't have to do a valve job with a pocket knife and valves from a small block V-8 on the side of the road.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Hello? Bueller?
It's not irrational. It's from a deserved reputation of building expensive but subpar motorcycles when it comes to reliability.
My bet is that most of the peeps that *hate* BMWs would actually love to own one if they weren't afraid of the maintenance costs and reliability issues.
They do build some compelling designs. Especially more recently when have traded 'quirky' for 'technologically leading'.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
And you know this how?? From your massive experience with BMW, or like so many others, I'll bet you have a fiend, who has a friend, who knows a guy...Speaking of spewing diarrhea. At least today we're not bashing Harleys. Yet.
Oh, and BTW...You know that now, I'm arguing just to argue right? I don't really care one way or another. But fucking with you dorks is a good break from my day. :****:
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Riiiight. Speaking of diarrhea...
By the way posuer, what makes you think you can mention Harleys?
'40 Knuck, 85 Shovel, '05 RK, '03 Big Dog. Go ahead. Do you really think you have the chops? I doubt it.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
RadioHowie LOVES a good furball!!
Sinister Crayon
Active member
Does if you ask nicely and the bird lands, Hoo would give a fork?
Sorry to bring this thread back to life but I wanted to post since I don't get on here much. I went from an FJR to a K1600GT about a month ago and felt I could actually give some useful feedback rather than a rant.
First, to clear up a bit of a misconception; despite the price the K1600GT is directly targeted at the Concours 14, FJR and ST1300... not the GoldWing. Even the GTL (with lower seat, different pegs, different suspension etc.) is not a competitor for the Wing... the Wing really exists almost in a class of one. This is not a slam on the Wing... I have ridden 200 miles on one and can see why people like it, but I can also see that I wouldn't.
Now how it compares to the FJR? Well, I traded my FJR because although my FJR did everything right, it never clicked with me. I enjoyed it during the first couple of weeks but didn't feel passionate about it. It was just there. In the end, after a year I had put 3000 miles on the bike where normally I rack up 12-15K a year on my bikes. Right there I knew something was wrong. I didn't feel drawn to the FJR... didn't feel that it was a better option than the BMW 135i that shared garage space with her. The two bikes I had before the FJR were bikes I made excuses to ride... found reasons to ride... the FJR not so much.
Don't get me wrong, like I said the FJR really didn't do anything wrong. In many ways to me it was the appliance in my kitchen that I rarely give a thought to. The good thing is; I can guarantee that appliance is just going to do exactly what I want it to do even if I let it languish for a month or two without even sparing it a second glance. My FJR was like that. Every time I did get on it, it started and moved and rode exactly like it had day one. The panniers swallowed as much stuff as I ever felt the need to stuff in there, and the bike had more than enough power to get up and go at every opportunity.
So what happened? Can't say exactly. Somewhere between the throttle stiffness, occasional odd electrical issues (and yes I checked for ground spider problems but never found an issue) and the simple fact that the bike just wasn't necessarily roomy enough for me to be comfortable with two-up riding I made the decision to move to the K1600GT. In the end the final nail in the coffin wasn't even the bike's fault; it was the bank through whom I had the loan for the bike who I finally got sick of arguing with them for the fourth month in a row about whether I had sent them a payment... then they without warning added their own insurance to my loan without once asking me for my proof of insurance... yeah that was the straw that broke the camel's back. In order to get rid of that lender, I made the decision to also get a new bike.
Now how does it compare? Extremely well. The throttle is a bit touchy at first... but then you have three modes you can play with to find what's comfortable for you. The slipper clutch has a bit of a problem with noise, but it can be combated by keeping the revs up when engine braking... you just change the way you ride a little and it's fantastic. As for performance, it's blindingly fast for such a big bike and will go like a bat out of hell. The integrated traction control also means even the most ham-fisted rider can get great performance without ending up laying down on the tarmac. Handling I'm afraid isn't even a competition; the turn-in is light and easy and the bike just falls into the turn incredibly easily and holds it almost on its own. Feedback through the handlebars is excellent and the bike has made me a bit more aggressive a rider than I ever was on the FJR simply because it's begging for more. I never felt this confident on the FJR... there was a vagueness in deep corners that was unsettling even after replacing the tires...
Is the K1600GT perfect? I can't say for sure... but I hit 1200 miles today on my ride to work and I find myself making excuses to ride it. That is telling to me. There is that noisy slipper clutch and a bit of jerkiness to the throttle until you learn how to ride it better. The screen on the dash also gets hard to see sometimes around the reflection from my hi-viz jacket... sometimes putting fuel in the bike is a pain and I've had at least one event at a gas station where I decided just to give up and go to a different station to get fuel... there's just something about that filler neck. Also, the bike is much taller than the FJR, but the stock seat (for me at least) is one of the best stock seats I've ever ridden on. Having said that, I loved the seat on my old Concours 14 as well. Also, the bike itself is incredibly roomy for two-up riding... something the Connie was as well, but the FJR not so much.
I can't say the BMW is going to be perfect... no bike is. As mentioned by a wise man here in this thread if you ride a bike long enough, it WILL break... but I'll see. I figure with a 3 year/36K warranty it'll give me time to figure out if this bike truly works for me, but so far I'm liking it. I do miss my FJR occasionally and will always have a soft spot for it (and by extension this group...) and in an ideal world I'd probably have both in my garage. However, if that were the case I do have to wonder if I'd still ride the FJR if I had the BMW K-Bike as well.
The K1600 is the best bike I think BMW has put out to date. It competes at the top end of a very competitive segment and acquits itself incredibly well... and raises the bar in many ways. That's what BMW does and it's a good thing for everyone. With competition like this in the segment it forces others to up their game. BMW doesn't do everything right with the K1600GT, but it has become the segment leader in my opinion (having owned a Concours 14 ABS, a Gen 2 FJR and now a K1600GT). If Yamaha take this competition seriously and really work to do something spectacular with the Gen 3 (assuming there is one), then we're in for a fantastic bike in a couple of years. As it stands, the FJR is a reliable, cost-effective stalwart of the market segment and still handily beats out the Honda ST's (I rode a couple while testing new bikes and really didn't like them all that much) but still stands in a close but definite third place behind the K1600GT and Concours 14.
Those who have an axe to grind with BMW can completely dismiss my opinion... but I am a convert. It doesn't mean I pray at the altar of BMW (although my car also has the roundel on the hood but that's a different division and I just happen to like the way they drive) nor does it mean I preach in the pulpit; I merely tell you here what I personally think having made the switch. If Yamaha has a Gen 3 FJR in the wings I will eagerly want to try it out and see what I think... but right now I think the BMW is the best of the segment and I intend to ride it until either something better comes along or I run it into the ground.
HTH.
Worse yet was when his Spirit Guide appeared before him during a rally and, instead of accepting and embracing it, he ran into it.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Thanks for the input Sinister Crayon. If everybody only liked one bike this world would be a very boring place.
As for your new K16GT, keep an eye out on that water pump! :blink:
As for your new K16GT, keep an eye out on that water pump! :blink:
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