No more Zumo 660, no more Garmin

[RBEmerson]

Time to ruin your day, then.

Video #1 looks pretty boring until about 6:00. And then there's the phone call towards the end of the video.

Video #2, St Gotthard Pass, is when the 660 went into full revolt. I'd very carefully built a route that should have taken me to the start of the original pass road, La Tremola. Made with cobblestones(!), it's not too bad if they're dry, but scary slippery if they're wet. Anyway, the 660 didn't tell me about the turn off the main road. It wasn't until I saw it on the right, from the new road, that I figured out the 660 was not my friend. Once I got to the top of the pass and turned off the main road, the 660 went into full revolt. It tried to send me onto some of the dirt paths (we're talking foot paths or cow trails) on either side of the road. It tried to send me into a Swiss military base. Anything but what I was after. It tried to send me through the town of Airolo, at the bottom of the road, instead of turning right to go to Nufenpass (next video). In all of the videos you can see me punch the "no, I don't want the route recalculated" button. A lot. Grrrrr...

FWIW I made three big mistakes on the trip. 1) K1600GT's are great on "normal" roads, but stink on pass roads with hairpins. The handling and steering's good, but the motor has no guts at low RPM's. 2) I tried to cover too much in a week. If I'd stayed with Switzerland's passes, it would kept me busy but still leave time to "smell the roses". Trying to go from Andermatt to the Dolomites and then Gross Glockner was stupid. I had very little time for roses. 3) Pass hunting, or almost anything else in vacation areas, is mobbed in July and super-mobbed in August. All of Europe goes on vacation then. Trying to make the first week of July work wasn't very bright. OTOH, I got lucky with the weather. I hit one of the few dry weeks that summer.

 

[dcarver]

Time to ruin your day, then.

Video #1 looks pretty boring until about 6:00. And then there's the phone call towards the end of the video.

Video #2, St Gotthard Pass, is when the 660 went into full revolt. I'd very carefully built a route that should have taken me to the start of the original pass road, La Tremola. Made with cobblestones(!), it's not too bad if they're dry, but scary slippery if they're wet. Anyway, the 660 didn't tell me about the turn off the main road. It wasn't until I saw it on the right, from the new road, that I figured out the 660 was not my friend. Once I got to the top of the pass and turned off the main road, the 660 went into full revolt. It tried to send me onto some of the dirt paths (we're talking foot paths or cow trails) on either side of the road. It tried to send me into a Swiss military base. Anything but what I was after. It tried to send me through the town of Airolo, at the bottom of the road, instead of turning right to go to Nufenpass (next video). In all of the videos you can see me punch the "no, I don't want the route recalculated" button. A lot. Grrrrr...

FWIW I made three big mistakes on the trip. 1) K1600GT's are great on "normal" roads, but stink on pass roads with hairpins. The handling and steering's good, but the motor has no guts at low RPM's. 2) I tried to cover too much in a week. If I'd stayed with Switzerland's passes, it would kept me busy but still leave time to "smell the roses". Trying to go from Andermatt to the Dolomites and then Gross Glockner was stupid. I had very little time for roses. 3) Pass hunting, or almost anything else in vacation areas, is mobbed in July and super-mobbed in August. All of Europe goes on vacation then. Trying to make the first week of July work wasn't very bright. OTOH, I got lucky with the weather. I hit one of the few dry weeks that summer.

Dude. I get it. Not a 'perfect' ride. But I'd trade 500 of my local rides you lucky SOB!

JSNS and https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/****.gif

Hugs n' Kisses

 

[RBEmerson]

If you want to see "not perfect", check out the ride up Stelvio. There seven, count 'em, seven minutes behind the camper from hell. The comments, as I finally got around the fool and they are in German, have deliberately obscured.

Overall, I got passed. A lot. So what. Even if I don't have time for the roses, at least I can rubberneck the scenery. Occasionally someone, coming or going, will stick a leg out. It's the British equivalent of a biker wave. Odd, but there it is. It helps to remember that the Alps are in, effectively, in their backyards.Which means they've long since memorized most (all?) of the passes I rode over. Local knowledge is a wonderful thing. But some people are downright insane. One rider, coming down the Stelvio road left me wondering "pass on the right or on the left". Mercifully, the right answer turned out to be "to the right". And there's this frame grab, showing true insanity, from (again) Stelvio. Note the location of the tires on the right sides of both cars. Yes, they are on the fog stripe.

This trip wasn't cheap. In a sense I could amortize the flight, because this was a family (me, my wife's brother and sister - only one of us rides) trip. Nonetheless, some time spent in Booking.com, etc. can turn up decent fares. Be prepared to re-arrange your life based on the rates, which driven by demand. For example, flying from Frankfurt to Philadelphia on 1 January is tolerable. Wait until 2 January and the same flight will be much higher. There are two sane riding seasons: May and June, and September and October. Don't even think about August and July quickly (depends on when schools take a break) cranks up. May and October are somewhat iffy with weather and some passes may not open until into May. It's the reverse in October. Good luck finding magic fares to fit that.

Rentals are also not cheap. I rented in Munich, Germany (right in front of BMW Motorrad's offices - woohoo!). I haven't run down the company that does it, but there is someone in the Frankfurt area who rents FJR's (had I only known!! Most rentals are BMW's - GS' are big - or a variety of Ducatis). Frankfurt to somewhere near the Austrian border is IIRC about a 5 hour drive/ride. There are stretches of the autobahns where there is no limit, but there are stretches that come down to 70+, 60, or (in construction) 40. Still, Frankfurt to, for example, the Mittenwald area or Schranz, Austria is doable in a day. From there, the options open up. Going to Switzerland is maybe 6-7 hours, but again a day's ride.

Language is not a major issue. Finding someone who speaks at least working English isn't that hard. Money... everybody but the UK and Switzerland use Euros. Buy them before you go! The exchanges in airports or on the street are no bargain. Most banks don't do exchanges (they used to). In the US, banks (not S&L's) and AAA do the exchange. AAA is spendy, our regular bank is slow, but a big bank like Bank of America (gotta have an account or at least a card) usually has the money in two days. In Switzerland, most places will accept Euros. If you look into credit cards, some will screw you into the ground with fees, and some have only a modest fee. Plastic works in lots of places.

Where to stay? IMNSHO forget the big hotels. And by all means ignore the three, four, five stars nonsense. It's a measure of how many extras (pool, sauna, exercise room, etc.) there are. Most people are happy to collapse at the end of the day, or maybe jump in a pool. The magic word in "pension" or pahn-see-own. They're mostly small, but still very nice. They tend to be away from the center of the town - rider's call on that. Choices for meals are overnight (breakfast only - from a typically overwhelming buffet), half pension (typically breakfast and dinner), full pension (breakfast, lunch, and dinner). I went with overnight.

Planning. Sigh... there's really only one US book for info: John Hermann's "The Alps and Beyond". His list of passes is overwhelming, but mostly sketchy. His maps are... heartbreaking. Translate them to real maps. Some passes are described in detail. Many are not. His comments about social stuff is, in places, truly The Ugly American. His hotel info is all about the star hotels and IIRC little or nothing about pensions. He's big about going biker bars on passes. IMNSHO beers and shots are left for the evenings. Hairpins while tuned up are ...well... suicidal. 'Course I think riding anywhere while tuned up is suicidal - leave it for the Harley dudes... Anyway, spend time with maps, look at my videos all they way through (to get hint about what the riding is like), and there's some hope of coming up with an itinerary. Or do a tour with a number of operators. My one experience with Edelweiss did not go well. Lots of people rave about them. They go for high rent hotels. You'll pay for some other add-ons. One thing is a drop dead necessity. Full, zero deductible insurance. Almost any drop won't be for free. Drops do happen. Spend accordingly.

Riding. I have never heard anyone say "meh, been there, done that, it's like home". Never, not ever. On the flat, things will be familiar. Get into the mountains and things get intense in a hurry. Some Swiss passes are actually not too demanding. Some are bad enough the locals hate to drive them at night. The eastern part of Furkapass is a good example. If you're really not good with heights and no (as in none or maybe some stone markers) guard rails, this may not be a great idea.

Particularly in Germany, the rules are predictable (for example, passing on the right will get you a big ticket). But there are differences. A vehicle to the right always (well, almost, but assume always) has the right of way. No turn on red. There are radar cameras in lots of places. Now many shoot you coming (no plate - yippee!) and going (GOTCHA!!). Austria is a little looser. Italy is uncertain - slack past belief in some places, cameras everywhere in some places. My wife was nailed for briefly touching tires on a "no cars" zone. $80+ gone. The Swiss... oh the Swiss. Hint: the police accept credit cards at the stop. Why? Many stops could wipe out your cash supply. No, they're not crooked, yes, they're not messing around.

Finally, if nothing else, put the Alps on a bucket list, buy a lottery ticket or two, and have pleasant dreams.

 

[RBEmerson]

Back on topic: I just pulled the trigger on a Rider 550. Let the fun begin!

 

[hppants]

Switzerland is high on the overseas bucket list. When we get there, I'm afraid wifey won't let us rent a bike, but I'm gonna try anyway...

 

[RBEmerson]

Too bad about the bike rental. FWIW some of the mountain roads are scary narrow, making a bike an attractive idea. To say nothing of the passes.

Switzerland isn't all mountains. The "flat" parts are interesting, too.

Two traffic words of wisdom, pay attention to the (IMHO silly) speeds. Be sure whatever vehicle you has a Swiss autobahn sticker. AFAIK they're no likely to pull someone over for not having one. But if they nail you for something else, no sticker is an added bonus. For them. Stickers aren't cheap (€38). You can only buy a year's pass.

Austria also has an autobahn sticker but you can get one that's good for 10 days and doesn't cost much.

Germany doesn't have stickers (political death to propose it). Italy does, but only for a few autostrada further south than South Tirol.

Stickers can be found on either side of boarders at gas stations or in German ADAC offices (think German AAA).

 

[BOAN]

So...from Garmin GPS to riding in Switzerland...talk about topic hoging...from GPS to travel...please..

 

[RBEmerson]

The term is "topic drift". It's not uncommon, for good or bad, on forums. Please note the matter has come to an end here.

 

[RBEmerson]

Moving on... I'm pleased to see TT is rational with the 550's power connection to the unit. Two wires and life is good. OTOH TT says they need x amount of amps (or milliamps) or the battery make up the difference. Which means that, at some point, the battery is too discharged to work.

Back to our VW Wesfalia camper (AKA Westy) we're currently traveling in. There are three devices on the dash: action cam, phone, and the GPS. The only power point is, unfortunately, in front of the passenger seat. Which means there are two small USB cables and the Garmin cord that need the power point. I have an adapter that can handle the two USB and Garmin plugs. I've bundled the cables up to make it tidier, and I've almost completely hidden them. But it would be so much easier to have hide only one cable. Unfortunately, the Garmin demands its own cable/connector - where's the surprise in that. I can combine the camera and phone USB cables with a splitter (one to two). The object of the exercise is to get down to one cable. And here's the hard part. Is the 550 so power hungry it needs it's own USB supply? TT includes, with the car mount, a two outlet plug-in USB adapter. I assume one of the two sockets is a 2.1A socket. Or is there?

 

[Fred W]

Your premise is flawed.

Lets say you buy a nice new PC computer. It runs nice, and you are happy... for a while. But it gets buggy after a few years and starts running slowly. You think it must be that the computer hardware is aging and getting slower. Maybe it has the PC version of arteriosclerosis?

Well it doesnt. Its getting bogged down by what you have done to it over the years. Sure, it was unintentional, but still you clicked on links, downloaded things, loaded software and unloaded it and left fragments behind. Maybe it is a bit like arteriosclerosis.

Well, your problem with your zumo is pretty close to the same thing. If you are a casual user and dont fully understand the software structure and just continually update the maps and add waypoints and routes, etc, etc eventually the software becomes bloated and the GPS runs like crap and starts crashing.

I still have and run a zumo 550, so an even older device than your 660, that still runs every bit as good as the day I bought it, maybe even better. Yes, it requires knowing a few things, being careful about how you load maps, not loading a ton of routes or waypoints, and understanding how to structure the files. I did have some problems with it crashing and locking up before I figured this stuff all out, but it wasnt really the device, just the software.

Just like all the anti-PC crowd who falsely claim that Apple products dont have the same problems as PCs, I have a feeling the same would be true of a TomTom or any device that allows you to manipulate the data, update maps, and add waypoints. But by all means check out how green the grass is over there. Just dont forget that it takes a lot of fertilizer to get grass to green up.

 

[AdamK]

Your premise is flawed.
Lets say you buy a nice new PC computer. It runs nice, and you are happy... for a while. But it gets buggy after a few years and starts running slowly. You think it must be that the computer hardware is aging and getting slower. Maybe it has the PC version of arteriosclerosis?

Well it doesnt. Its getting bogged down by what you have done to it over the years. Sure, it was unintentional, but still you clicked on links, downloaded things, loaded software and unloaded it and left fragments behind. Maybe it is a bit like arteriosclerosis.

Well, your problem with your zumo is pretty close to the same thing. If you are a casual user and dont fully understand the software structure and just continually update the maps and add waypoints and routes, etc, etc eventually the software becomes bloated and the GPS runs like crap and starts crashing.

I still have and run a zumo 550, so an even older device than your 660, that still runs every bit as good as the day I bought it, maybe even better. Yes, it requires knowing a few things, being careful about how you load maps, not loading a ton of routes or waypoints, and understanding how to structure the files. I did have some problems with it crashing and locking up before I figured this stuff all out, but it wasnt really the device, just the software.

Just like all the anti-PC crowd who falsely claim that Apple products dont have the same problems as PCs, I have a feeling the same would be true of a TomTom or any device that allows you to manipulate the data, update maps, and add waypoints. But by all means check out how green the grass is over there. Just dont forget that it takes a lot of fertilizer to get grass to green up.

Don't know if I agree with these statements. The firmware in these devices is only updated by Garmin and for the most part it is replaced when you perform an update. When you load new maps you are simply replacing the old map file with a updated version. You're not adding to a "registry" on the device or "bloating" it with new programs. I typically flush the waypoints and routes out of my gps when I load new ones. I use Basecamp to archive my trips. I don't keep everything loaded in the gps. I suppose if you did keep everything in the gps you could slow it down when you perused your routes and waypoints.

The problems I had with my 660 were Garmin compatibility issues between the devices firmware and how it interacted with the updated versions of Mapsource and Basecamp. When I purchased the unit I was a Mapsource user and everything worked fine. At some point the updates to the 660 firmware created issues between the 660 and Mapsource. The 660 would crash or the routes would spontaneously recalculate. Garmin finally gave up and told me Mapsource was a depreciated program and was not longer supported for the 660. I was instructed to use Basecamp.

So I imported all of my gdb files into Basecamp, learned to use it and actually learned to like it. Then my 660 became a device no longer support or updated by Gamrin. Things were fine for a while, but then Garmin started making changes to Basecamp and the firmware in their newer units. Routes were imported in a different manner and the newer units imported and recalculated routes when they were loaded. On the older units routes were simply imported/loaded into the gps and the unit would dutifully follow them. On all newer garmin gps' now 'find' imported routes on restart and import/recalculate them when they are found. You don't always end up with the same route on the gps you created in Basecamp. Garmin will tell you to add more shaping points to insure the gps will end up with the same route you created in Basecamp.

Then my 660 was no longer updated by Garmin. Things again were OK for a while. I learned how to adapt and create routes which took me where I wanted to go. Garmin continued to develop/change Basecamp and their newer gps'. I started having issue with my 660 and how it followed my routes. The unit would spontaneously recalc routes even though my unit was set to prompt me. Whenever that happened I had to cancel and reload the route because the recalculated routes couldn't be trusted. I called Garmin support and had long discussions with them. Finally they told me my unit was no longer compatible with the newer versions of Basecamp and that I should go back to using Mapsource. WTF?! Really!!

I had too much time invested in Basecamp so I sold my 660 to a friend I knew who didn't use a gps like I do. He simply picks a destination and has the gps create the route. The 660 was fine for that. I prefer to meticulously research my trip and create routes through roads I've either ridden before, learned about from friends or discovered by researching on the Internet. So I bought a 595LM. The 595 hasn't been perfect, but I didn't find anything better. It's still support by Garmin and is designed to work with Basecamp.

So back to your original statements. I don't think these issues with Garmin products and created by the user or the way they use the gps. I think the issues are created by poor product development practices by Garmin. They are focused on the latest, greatest hardware and software they produce with little regard to what this does to people using older products.

Last I checked Tom Tom has a web based application for creating and importing routes to their units. I can't say I've invested much time into learning anything more about it. Some people also like to create routes in Google Maps, export them as gps files and import them into their gps'. I'm not that interested in that process and prefer using an application on my PC which I can use locally even when I'm off the Internet like when I'm flying.

So I'm sticking with Garmin unit they really piss me off or I find, or see someone using, something that looks better.

 

[RBEmerson]

I agree - the 660 isn't a PC loaded with cruft, it's a firmware device effectively managed by Garmin. Also, my 660 is old enough that I don't recall when I bought it. Given all the lumps and bumps it's been through, they should be more than enough to cause internal problems.

 

[Fred W]

Its not the operating software that causes all of the problems, its the map updates that continue to get larger and larger and consume all of the devices limited memory resources. Its not actually the maps getting larger its the POIs. The continue to add new ones but dont clean out the old ones. Off loading the ever increasing map update file to a large sd card did wonders for my 550, which used to crash and freeze before doing that.

It may be a matter of semantics, but, in my mind at least, the Garmin memory isnt really firmware. It works more like a solid state hard drive. When I saw how full that ss hard drive was after a map update it gave me the idea to free up space on it by moving the giant map update file.

Im still using mapsource because basecamp has always sucked. It does crash during route building occasionally, so I do a lot of saves while making routes. The key to using mapsource with later version devices is to not use it to transfer to the device using it. Instead, create your routes and waypoints then save the file as a .gpx file on your PC. Transfer that file with windows file manager to the GPX directory on the device and import the data from there. You can use the same technique from basecamp.

 

[rbentnail]

Along with Fred's description of map downloading, I never use the device memory for maps and waypoints. Using Base Camp I simply drag-and-drop my info directly to the memory card, listed as User Memory. I also delete "stuff" from the device when I'm not going to use it. Why not? I still have it on a computer and can re-transfer any of it at any time. No point IMHO storing all the stuff on the device, it's not designed to store, it's designed to use. After 10 yrs and 100K + miles I have never had a freezing or crashing problem.

I also found out recently that you can manipulate the device memory when you connect the device to the computer. I had never thought of doing it but removing old crap via My Computer/your device helped with boot and download times. I had stuff in device memory that hadn't been used in 5+ yrs. You can in many cases clean out unused themes, music, languages, etc. It really does help especially with older units.

 

[RBEmerson]

You're mixing the "HDD" function and the Garmin firmware that uses the "HDD".

Having the same files only larger on an HDD doesn't add "debris" to the HDD. Files become fragmented: a file may be non-contiguous leading to more seek time leading to slower overall performance for a particular file.

SSD's work differently. Very briefly, an SSD (has to) constantly cleans up unused data blocks and puts good data"next to" the rest of the file; no fragmentation.

The odds that any Garmin device uses the above is slim to none. The map and POI files are simply rewritten. End of garbage problem.

Obviously sifting through a larger file for a particular item is not going to be as quick as sifting through a small file.

Firmware is the programming that the 660 uses to do its job. The size of the map and POI files don't alter how it works.

Either way - no cruft or garbage.

In my case, the problem isn't taking tons of time to find something, it's that the search never ends. Or a result isn't find after 10-15 minutes of searching. I tried that just to see what happens. Remember, too, the search results are sorted by distance from the current position. If, for example, I search for "Auto Zone", the results begin with the Auto Zone down the street and then continue with increasingly more distant "Auto Zones". In my case, I get no Auto Zones, period.

Additionally, if I ask for a long route (I haven't tried to find out far "long" is), the 660 crashes (goes dark, and the battery has to be pulled and replaced to just power up).

Diagnoses:

 

[RBEmerson]

Tip: Ordinarily, trying run to the 660 with the back cover off fails. The firmware demands the cover be closed. A small magnet in the cover and a sensor in the body combine to show whether the door is open or not. It's easy to figure out where this is going. Find a small magnet, tape it into where the cover magnet goes and leave the cover off without a gripe. Dunno why running with an open cover matters, but there it is.

 

[RBEmerson]

@rbentnail : I use two map sets, NA and Europe (well, part of it). That can't be done on internal memory alone. The SD gets all of the "toys" in addition to a map. As you said, it works nicely.

I gave up on music in the 660 a long time ago. The HSP connection between the 660 and any BT intercom carries only one channel of audio. Pass.

About the only ...um...creativity I've played with is to hack the TTS voice files. It's been a while since I've done it, but I still have the tools. I managed to get the OZ voice to say "G'day, mate"., for example. It was a little choppy. The change is entered as regular characters. "G da m8" sounds a little odd, but it worked. Of course Garmin may have changed the files so they can't be hacked. Where's the surprise.

Never mind, the needed file links are 404'ed. I'll think about putting the files up in public space.

 

[Niehart]

I hard wired my 550 to a SM10 and bluetoothed to the 10 for good audio. Also hard wired the radar detector to the SM10.

I have moved on to a 595 but do miss some of the things the 550 did.

With the Great White North and US maps, my 595 only has 1.021 GB's available out of 7.02GB's.

 

[RBEmerson]

Well, that's one way to get your music in full living stereo. My choice is to let the 660 show the map, and let Maps or Waze show me the way. Until now.

I'm now the owner of a TT Rider 550. Woohoo!

I just unboxed it and haven't even gotten time to power it up.

 

[Niehart]

In the west there are just to many area's that have no cell service.

We will expect a review of the TT after you get some time to play with it. Thanks for your good insight.